"too many professionals"



Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Sabernet News

Guest
Daniel Connelly <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> From : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/mar03/mar11news2
>
> Furthermore, Verbruggen added that there are too many riders as well. "There are too many
> professionals who really shouldn't be pro," he said. "We are working on a system to let riders
> prove their value before they can sign a pro contract."
>

Vergruggen's an ass. I think signing a pro contract with someone who is willing to pay them is how a
rider proves their value....
 
R

Ronde Chump

Guest
That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams. The rest
of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and organization)
before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
taking out a license.

Ronde Chump
 
K

Kurgan Gringion

Guest
"Ronde Chump" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
> rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
> definitely not Pro material, yet.
>
> Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.

Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say they're legit.

>The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
>organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.
>
> I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
> taking out a license.

Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed to
a Cat 2 (with no placings), then took out a pro license. Good stuff.

2 years in a row he was eliminated in the prologue of Redlands (it went uphill - he was 25+ lbs.
overweight).

Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense of how good they are in a
negative race. I would guess the delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium where
the races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and crosswinds.
 
N

Nick Burns

Guest
I think there is a cultural thing in the US that goes beyond the specifics of the sport of cycling.
There are plenty of delusional athletes outside the sport of cycling in the US. Plenty of delusional
people in general.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ronde Chump" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of
the "no
> > minimum salary" rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that
are good
> > competitive Cat. 1 riders, but definitely not Pro material, yet.
> >
> > Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.
>
> Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say
they're legit.
>
> >The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
> >organization) before tackling races
like
> > Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.
> >
> > I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a
Pro
> > should be more than just taking out a license.
>
> Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his
Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed to a Cat 2 (with no placings), then
> took out a pro license. Good stuff.
>
> 2 years in a row he was eliminated in the prologue of Redlands (it went
uphill - he was 25+ lbs. overweight).
>
>
> Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense
of how good they are in a negative race. I would guess the
> delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium where the
races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and
> crosswinds.
 
S

Steve

Guest
On 3/11/03 11:27 AM, in article [email protected], "Kurgan Gringioni"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Ronde Chump" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
>> rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
>> definitely not Pro material, yet.
>>
>> Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.
>
> Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say they're legit.
>
>> The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
>> organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.
>>
>> I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than
>> just taking out a license.
>
> Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed
> to a Cat 2 (with no placings), then took out a pro license. Good stuff.

Are you talking about the "Cliff Bar" rep?

>
> 2 years in a row he was eliminated in the prologue of Redlands (it went uphill
> - he was 25+ lbs. overweight).
>
>
> Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense of how good they are in
> a negative race. I would guess the delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium
> where the races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and crosswinds.
 
C

Casey Kerrigan

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "Ronde Chump" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
> > rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
> > definitely not Pro material, yet.
> >
> > Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.
>
> Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say they're legit.
>
> >The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
> >organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.
> >
> > I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than
> > just taking out a license.
>
> Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed
> to a Cat 2 (with no placings), then took out a pro license. Good stuff.

Just throwing out a question - Should a rider have to be at least a Cat 1 before becoming a "Pro" or
should anyone ( even a Cat 3 or 4) who can get on a team be allowed to be a "Pro".

Casey
 
D

Daniel Connelly

Guest
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
>
> Just throwing out a question - Should a rider have to be at least a Cat 1 before becoming a "Pro"
> or should anyone ( even a Cat 3 or 4) who can get on a team be allowed to be a "Pro".

Anyone.

Categories are to control the composition of fields. In USCF racing, where teams are essentially
uncontrolled, this has to be done through the rider cateogory system. At the pro level, the teams
are regulated and ranked -- they need to maintain a certain standard to meet the requirements of
professional affiliation with a number of riders in a particular race which is limited by the rules.
To accomplish this, they should be able to hire whomever they wish. The control is at the team
level, rather than the rider level. To take it beyond that is overly intrusive.

So if there are weak riders, the solution is to increase requirements on teams -- the smaller number
of teams will take care of improving the average quality of riders.

Dan
 
J

Jeff Jones

Guest
"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense
of how good they are in a negative race. I would guess the
> delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium where the
races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and
> crosswinds.
>
True to an extent, especially amongst the Belgians, and visiting Lithuanians, Dutch and Russians.
There are many occasions when the winning break gets away at the beginning of the race, and that is
always sobering. A negatively raced kermesse is almost a contradiction in terms, unless you're in
the third group or below. Then you start to get into the delusional territory. Pro kermesses can be
a bit different - steadier start, then really hard at the end. Depends who's there really.

Jeff
 
S

Steven Y. Litvi

Guest
"Ronde Chump" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of
the "no
> minimum salary" rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are
good
> competitive Cat. 1 riders, but definitely not Pro material, yet.
>
> Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams. The
> rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that
still
> need more experience (riders and organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC,
> Wachovia, etc.
>
> I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
> taking out a license.
>

I would guess (and this is only a guess) that the scenario is very different in European countries
where cycling is more popular. I always thought that the strong elite club system in Europe
provided the experience needed before taking the step up to the pro ranks. Since the availability
of elite amateur competition is lacking in the us (are there any regions in the us that have Cat 1
only events with decent fields week in and out?) don't we need Tier III pro teams to provide good
racing experiences to our up and coming racers even if it means so "undeserving" riders get to be
called pro's?

Steve
 
K

Kurgan Gringion

Guest
"Sabernet News" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Vergruggen's an ass. I think signing a pro contract with someone who is willing to pay them is how
> a rider proves their value....

In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders *anything*, therefore most of the
"professionals" here are glorified amateurs.

snipped North American teams from: http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2003/teams2003/teams2003.shtml

D1:USPS

D2:Navigators

D3:7Up/Maxxis Atlas Cold/Italpasta (Canada) Colavita/Bolla Healthnet Jelly Belly Jet Fuel Coffee
(Canada) Jittery Joe's Lemond Fitness/Blender Ofoto/Lombardi Prime Alliance Saturn Schroeder Iron
Sierra Nevada Sportsbook.com Webcor West Virginia Cycling Team <snip>

18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly is not representative of N.
America's strength in the sport. We do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.

We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.

E. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year
 
T

Tom Arsenault

Guest
>
>
> In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders *anything*, therefore most of the
> "professionals" here are glorified amateurs.
>
> snipped North American teams from:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2003/teams2003/teams2003.shtml
>
> D1:USPS
>
> D2:Navigators
>
> D3:7Up/Maxxis Atlas Cold/Italpasta (Canada) Colavita/Bolla Healthnet Jelly Belly Jet Fuel Coffee
> (Canada) Jittery Joe's Lemond Fitness/Blender Ofoto/Lombardi Prime Alliance Saturn Schroeder
> Iron Sierra Nevada Sportsbook.com Webcor West Virginia Cycling Team <snip>
>
>
> 18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly is not representative of N.
> America's strength in the sport. We do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.
>
> We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.
>
>
> K. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year

I think we have a lot of the opposite happening in the USA as well. People who should be Cat 2's or
1's who are still riding week in and week out as a Cat. 3 and sandbagging events to win money in
those events. Of course everyone knows who these people are who have a gazillion upgrade points (I
knew one guy in the Southeast who had accumulated over 200 points as a 3 over the course of one
season and wouldn't upgrade to a 2). So sandbaggers suck, and pros who should be Cat. 3's still suck
just as bad. Delisional we are.

Tom
 
B

Bart

Guest
This is a fun discussion. Hein's 57 pro teams are actually the sum of Div I and II teams. Apparently
he is of the -correct- opinion that the Div III is not really pro. While I too thought he was aiming
at them in his critique. Now his position is becoming complete nonsens.
 
K

Kurgan Gringion

Guest
"Bart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> This is a fun discussion. Hein's 57 pro teams are actually the sum of Div I and II teams.

Whoops. I guess my analysis is incorrect.

> Apparently he is of the -correct- opinion that the Div III is not really pro.

Some of them are (the ones that actually pay the riders a living wage).

The rest are not.

>While I too thought he was aiming at them in his critique. Now his position is becoming
>complete nonsens.

Hein is a funny guy.
 
O

Omc

Guest
[email protected] (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >
> >
> > In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders *anything*, therefore most of the
> > "professionals" here are glorified amateurs.
> >
> >
> > 18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly is not representative of N.
> > America's strength in the sport. We do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.
> >
> > We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.
> >
> >
> > K. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year
>
> I think we have a lot of the opposite happening in the USA as well. People who should be Cat 2's
> or 1's who are still riding week in and week out as a Cat. 3 and sandbagging events to win money
> in those events. Of course everyone knows who these people are who have a gazillion upgrade points
> (I knew one guy in the Southeast who had accumulated over 200 points as a 3 over the course of one
> season and wouldn't upgrade to a 2). So sandbaggers suck, and pros who should be Cat. 3's still
> suck just as bad. Delisional we are.
>
> Tom

Is there really that much money to make it worth staying a Cat 3 ? Most 3's stay a 3 because they
know that their ass will get handed to them if they upgrade. It has become more than evident that
this year D3 teams hired marginal Cat 2 amateurs for nothing, rather than picking up quality
seasoned Pro's and pay them a decent wage. There are a good number of U.S. Pros that are sitting on
the sideline this year because they can't ride for peanuts. It was a marginal living at best for
many of them, but now they simply can not make ends meet.

OMC
 
S

Sabernet News

Guest
Verbruggen was only counting DI and DII teams, so your theory is basically shot. He's trying to
cover up the fact that once again the UCI got caught with their pants down with Team Coast,
despite having lots of warnings. It's a reflection of his amazingly parochial view of cycling as a
pro sport.

Becoming a pro should mean finding someone willing to pay you to be one. Letting the UCI decide it
is ludicrous.

Ronde Chump <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of
the "no
> minimum salary" rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are
good
> competitive Cat. 1 riders, but definitely not Pro material, yet.
>
> Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams. The
> rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that
still
> need more experience (riders and organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC,
> Wachovia, etc.
>
> I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
> taking out a license.
>
> Ronde Chump
 
K

Kurgan Gringion

Guest
"Sabernet News" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Verbruggen was only counting DI and DII teams, so your theory is basically shot. He's trying to
> cover up the fact that once again the UCI got caught with their pants down with Team Coast,
> despite having lots of warnings. It's a reflection of his amazingly parochial view of cycling as a
> pro sport.
>
> Becoming a pro should mean finding someone willing to pay you to be one.

You are ignoring the fact that most of the D3 "pros" are paid a salary of $0.00
 
J

Joe Yannie

Guest
What region of the country has THAT many separate Cat3 races? Most of the ones I have seen in the
Mid Atl. are 1 through 3. That makes it more difficult to upgrade.

Michigan had a whole series of separate races so upgrading was eventually going to happen if you
won/placed. Also, no one wants to stay a 3 because there is little to no teamwork. They were
essentially longer&faster cat 4 races.

"OMC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders
*anything*, therefore most of the "professionals" here are glorified
> > > amateurs.
> > >
> > >
> > > 18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly
is not representative of N. America's strength in the sport. We
> > > do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.
> > >
> > > We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.
> > >
> > >
> > > K. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year
> >
> > I think we have a lot of the opposite happening in the USA as well. People who should be Cat 2's
> > or 1's who are still riding week in and week out as a Cat. 3 and sandbagging events to win money
> > in those events. Of course everyone knows who these people are who have a gazillion upgrade
> > points (I knew one guy in the Southeast who had accumulated over 200 points as a 3 over the
> > course of one season and wouldn't upgrade to a 2). So sandbaggers suck, and pros who should be
> > Cat. 3's still suck just as bad. Delisional we are.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Is there really that much money to make it worth staying a Cat 3 ? Most 3's stay a 3 because they
> know that their ass will get handed to them if they upgrade. It has become more than evident that
> this year D3 teams hired marginal Cat 2 amateurs for nothing, rather than picking up quality
> seasoned Pro's and pay them a decent wage. There are a good number of U.S. Pros that are sitting
> on the sideline this year because they can't ride for peanuts. It was a marginal living at best
> for many of them, but now they simply can not make ends meet.
>
> OMC
 
C

Casey Kerrigan

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Joe Yannie <[email protected]> wrote:

> What region of the country has THAT many separate Cat3 races? Most of the ones I have seen in the
> Mid Atl. are 1 through 3. That makes it more difficult to upgrade.

Just about every race in Nor Cal has a separate Cat 3 race. Heck we have a bunch of races with a
separate Cat 3 women's race. Early season training races and twilight races are about the only time
the 3s are combined with the 1/2Pros here.

Casey
 
Status
Not open for further replies.