Too many questions. Looking for some advice

[CoachMitch]

This is my first post even though I have been stalking for a while. Some brief bio :

Age: 46
Weight: too much (195) for 5'11" tall (Goal is 175)
Cycling: recreational 4 days a week (120 miles) mostly group rides
Time: About 3 years (last year for real)
Current bike: 2011 Giant Defy Advanced
Goals: Want to do some cat 5 next year. Eventually want to race 50 and over group.

Here are my questions:

Should I upgrade my bike to more of a race style bike (Giant TCR) for better racing geometry?
Should I buy an indoor trainer and do interval workouts. (Maybe give up several group rides)?
Should I hire a couch to answer these questions and get me off on the right foot?
Should I run in the mornings (30 minute interval workouts) to promote weight loss?
Is it even realistic to think that I can bike race at my age without having years of training background?

Sorry for the long post. I just do not know who to ask. I talk with the guys I ride with but none of them really train to race they all just ride casually. I can run with the A riders and hold a pretty good pace (usually sit in at around 22-24 mph) just cant pull at more than 21 mph for very long. Our average group ride is about 20 MPH average over the 32 mile course.

 

[ira41]

Originally Posted by CoachMitch .

This is my first post even though I have been stalking for a while. Some brief bio :

Age: 46
Weight: too much (195) for 5'11" tall (Goal is 175)
Cycling: recreational 4 days a week (120 miles) mostly group rides
Time: About 3 years (last year for real)
Current bike: 2011 Giant Defy Advanced
Goals: Want to do some cat 5 next year. Eventually want to race 50 and over group.

Here are my questions:

Should I upgrade my bike to more of a race style bike (Giant TCR) for better racing geometry? Focus on upgrading the rider for now.
Should I buy an indoor trainer and do interval workouts. Yes (Maybe give up several group rides)? Maybe, depending on what your getting out of them.
Should I hire a couch to answer these questions and get me off on the right foot? Not a bad idea, I would by a power meter if I was going to spend any money.
Should I run in the mornings (30 minute interval workouts) to promote weight loss? Your long ride days will take care of that.
Is it even realistic to think that I can bike race at my age without having years of training background? I hope so, I am 42 now this is my first serious season and I want to race too at some point.

Sorry for the long post. I just do not know who to ask. I talk with the guys I ride with but none of them really train to race they all just ride casually. I can run with the A riders and hold a pretty good pace (usually sit in at around 22-24 mph) just cant pull at more than 21 mph for very long. Our average group ride is about 20 MPH average over the 32 mile course.

Responses in bold. I am sure some of the wiser more experienced guys are going to have some great insight and advice. I only comment because from a numbers perspective you and I are very close. I was 215lbs at 5'11" now I am 172lbs. Our speed averages are close, mine are a little lower, I tend to average 18-20 solo depending on how much I'm hammering. when I started around Nov last year I was weak. I did intervals all fall and winter, did a lot of things wrong(Not enough base) etc.

If you want to race Cat5 and move up at all you are going to need a structured training plan, wouldn't hurt to get a power metering device if that’s something you can do, I would not have gained the fitness I did without intervals and my Powertap.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by CoachMitch ....Is it even realistic to think that I can bike race at my age without having years of training background?...

Ira covered the bases nicely, but yes it is realistic to begin racing at your age. One of the best and most successful masters racers I know began riding about your age and went on to win a handful of national championship medals in masters racing. It sounds like you're already rolling with the big boys and have some group riding skills which is essential for successful racing.

From what you described and the speeds you've manged I'd take out your Cat 5 license and start getting out to races. You might do better than you think, especially in Florida where you don't have huge hills to climb and your current weight isn't such an issue. But you'll mostly start paying dues and gaining pack riding experience at race speeds which you'll have to start in on anyway so no reason not to get started.

BTW, for a newer racer I would NOT give up group riding. Structured solo riding can in many ways be better for developing base fitness and sustainable power but group riding skills are so essential to a racer that you want to keep at least some of those fast group rides in the mix. I wouldn't do every ride with a group and would carve out some time for structured training at your own best intensity but keep doing some group riding as in a ride or two per week to keep your skills sharp.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[CoachMitch]

Thanks Ira. I used to own a powertap and even bought Coggins book but was a little overwhelmed. Probably should revisit this with a coach who can explain the significance of the numbers as well as help refine my goals. I read through almost the entire "its killing me post" and gained a lot of perspective. However, I feel training should be tailored to each individual and their goals. Way to go on the weight loss. I find it hard to cut my calories a lot and still have energy to train hard. Trying to stick to around 2000 calories per day of really solid food choices. About 50% carbs, 25% protein, and 25% fat. Thanks again for the input.

 

[CoachMitch]

Thanks Dave. Good Advice. I keep reading about people giving up all their groups rides and training exclusively on their trainers and solo long rides. I ride bikes because I enjoy challenging myself with other riders. I will push myself to keep up. I don't mind doing one day of intervals on the trainer and maybe a solo long recovery ride but I would like to ride group at least three days a week. I hope that will fit into a structured training plan which is why I think I need to talk to a coach. What do you think?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by CoachMitch .

Thanks Dave. Good Advice. I keep reading about people giving up all their groups rides and training exclusively on their trainers and solo long rides. I ride bikes because I enjoy challenging myself with other riders. I will push myself to keep up. I don't mind doing one day of intervals on the trainer and maybe a solo long recovery ride but I would like to ride group at least three days a week. I hope that will fit into a structured training plan which is why I think I need to talk to a coach. What do you think?

The main problem with group rides where you live is that you rarely have the opportunity for sustained L4 efforts. The power profile of a typical group ride on the flat is a sequence of anaerobic efforts when you are on front followed by L3 efforts when you are drafting. There are a few things you can do to enhance the physiological adaptation benefits of group rides such as riding a few feet offset from centerline when you're drafting (if the road width permits), and some groups (rare) allow a rider to stay on front for an extended period of time (e.g., 10 mins) in order to get an L4 effort. But, most groups will give a rider a lot of grief if they stay on front that long. Therein lies the dilemma. Group rides are good for learning to ride in a group but lousy for building sustainable power. Solo rides are good for building sustainable power but obviously lousy for learning to ride in a group. If you lived in another part of the country where the routes include long climbs, group rides can actually provide several opportunities for L4 efforts because the group ride protocol is typically to do the climbs at one's own pace and regroup at the top. Unfortunately, where you live this isn't an option. So, my suggestion is -- move!

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by CoachMitch .

Thanks Dave. Good Advice. I keep reading about people giving up all their groups rides and training exclusively on their trainers and solo long rides. I ride bikes because I enjoy challenging myself with other riders. I will push myself to keep up. I don't mind doing one day of intervals on the trainer and maybe a solo long recovery ride but I would like to ride group at least three days a week. I hope that will fit into a structured training plan which is why I think I need to talk to a coach. What do you think?

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .
BTW, for a newer racer I would NOT give up group riding. Structured solo riding can in many ways be better for developing base fitness and sustainable power but group riding skills are so essential to a racer that you want to keep at least some of those fast group rides in the mix. I wouldn't do every ride with a group and would carve out some time for structured training at your own best intensity but keep doing some group riding as in a ride or two per week to keep your skills sharp.

Good luck,
-Dave

CM, as Dave mentioned in his post there is a balance between the two. The one thing to watch out for in typical group rides is that many do not sustain effort for more than a few minutes at a time, which may not build that sustainable power, but not all groups are the same so I don't want to paint with a broad brush. It is just something to be aware of and take note in your weekly schedule if you have intention to train endurance.

Even if you do not have a power meter at this time it is really great to start reading power based discussions and articles. I started reading about 2 years before I bought my first PM and picked up so much valuable training information. This will also help you pick a good coach or a coach that fits your desired goals.

Here are a few that I started with that really helped and of course this forum has been very helpful to me

http://www.freewebs.com/velodynamics2/modelplan.pdf

http://velodynamics2.webs.com/rcgtp1.pdf (takes a minute to load)

http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur%20Lydiard.pdf (focused toward runners but still applicable to cyclist in learning training the different metabolic systems)

 

[Felt_Rider]

RDO beat me to the punch of the enter key

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

RDO beat me to the punch of the enter key

And both of these guys said what I should have said above. Some group riding, especially fast group riding is essential for building racing skills, but I would probably limit that to one or two rides per week unless the nature of the group rides allows you to sustain solid SST/l4 power for at least 10 minutes and preferably 15 to 30 minutes at a stretch. In Florida that's unlikely, in Colorado or places with sustained climbs it's more likely.

The trouble with group riding for building sustainable power and basic cycling fitness is that you don't own your own best training intensities or durations. IOW, some groups will be punchy L6 efforts and sitting in, some more like short L5 repeats as you trade fast pulls, some too easy as you have to ramp back to avoid dropping too many folks. You don't get to control the intensity or the duration of the efforts all that well.

So if you do 3 group rides a week and they're hard and punchy you might do one solo solid training day, one medium effort endurance or Tempo day and then a couple of easier days. It doesn't leave much time for solid SST/L4 work which most folks use to build sustainable power. Limit it to one or two hard group rides per week and you still have time for perhaps two SST/L4 days, a longer Endurance/Tempo day and some easier riding or a day dedicated to specific needs like sprints or L5 work. Many different ways to craft a program but just make sure you have control of your own best training intensities and durations at least a few days per week and don't always be at the mercy of group think for your training. That can easily lead to simply learning to hang on or dear life, getting good at hanging on wheels but never developing the staying power, focus and confidence to get off the front or get away in races, that comes from sustained solo efforts which you don't generally learn by hanging onto other folk's wheels. So if you want to own your destiny in race situations, make sure you do enough of those solo sustained efforts to know what it's like to hold race pace alone and out in the wind.

BTW, the group ride issues are the same reason that contrary to popular belief, racing is NOT always the best training. Sure it's the best training for race specific riding skills and high end punchy work but often not the best way to develop solid fitness and staying power.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[CoachMitch]

Thanks guys. That makes sense. I guess I have to prioritize training and social riding. I could easily cut my group riding to two days and Use the Sunday easy group ride (only 22 miles at moderate pace) as a warmup then add about 25 or 30 solo miles to it.