Took CTS Field Test -- Results & Qs...

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Aztec, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    CTS recommends two flat 3mi TTs, with 10 mins recovery. I did them in 7:38 and 9:20 (ouch!). My HR was 120 at the starts, reached 180 in about 1 minute, held in the 183-186 range most of the time (peaked at 191). Average HRs were 179 and 180.

    CTS bases their training ranges on those average rates. Seems odd since part of the time was the HR ramp up. When I calculated my training ranges, I came up with something like up to 160 or so as the endurance training HR. !!!! So much for the thinking that 130-140 is the 'right' level for base miles. First I'd thought I was training too intensely (typically in the 150-165 range), so I dropped my HR down into the 130-150 range. Now that looks like it was too easy!

    I wonder how I'm ever to climb? When I do, my HR is 175-180, and I climb for an hour+ at that level. That looks like serious, serious overtraining by just about any standard I can find!
     
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  2. sanmi

    sanmi New Member

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    Aztec,

    That test you´ve done is not scientific at all. As you said 160 is probably a very high HR for endurance. The problem with those tets is that there is absolutelly no scientific data of your physiological parameters during exercise. You should get minimun a lactate profile using an incremental protocol to set up your physiological parameters at different intensities. This will give you lots of info on how your body works. At 160 b/m you are probably pedaling at a high glycolitic state which means that you are mostly using (burning) glucose for energy purposes not fat as it is suposed to be burnt during endurance training. If you did a professional scientific test and had a good professional interpretate the results for you, you would come up with different results that would help your training and performance a lot more. At e.g. There are huge metabolical difefrences between 130 and 160 b/m. enough differences to not only unable you to improve your endurance but also to overtrain you quite hard. However it could be a coincidence that 160 b/m is your target Hr for endurance. An easier coindicence than guessing lotto´s numbers but still a chance.


    Good luck.
     
  3. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

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    Aztec:

    Don't worry about any of that for now. The most important thing for you to do is log more miles at any intensity. You should be riding at least 4-5 times a week, especially if you are thinking about racing next year. From your previous posts, I just don't think you are getting enough miles.

    Here's a solid program for you: Do that 1 hour climb you talk about, and do it at 175-180 bpm 2-3 times a week and ride easy on other 2-3 days. You will get very powerful in a few months. You have to be consistent though.

    Improved power output only comes from regular, consistent training week after week after week. Monitor progress from increased climbing speed. If your speed goes up and your weight remains the same, you have increased your power.

    You can make your training as complicated or simple as you like. A 60 minute climb is just about ideal for power training. If you just follow the above program, you will see HUGE improvements in a short time.

    Good luck!!!
     
  4. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    J-Mat,
    I'm with you. Makes perfect intuitive sense. What worries me, though, is that everything I read points to a 4 month or so period of low intensity/high volume for endurance building. Charmichael calls it 'foundation' while Friel calls it 'base 1, 2, and 3.'

    From the other thread on coaching, I can conclude... trust no one! ;-) It sounds like a good starting point is to get LT tested in a lab, and see what's up. Then build intensity around that.
     
  5. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    Depends on what type of power you are trying to develop!

    But I agree with the rest of your post.
     
  6. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

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    Aztec:

    Do this: Ride 125 miles this week and next week at any speed and any terrain. How do you feel??? Are you exhaused??? How do your knees and back feel???

    Are you ready for more riding physically and mentally??? If you are, you should start doing harder workouts.

    If you could do an hours climb at 175-180 bpm, and you were working as hard as you could for that hour, that's where your threshold is.

    If you were not working as hard as you could, your threshold is higher. Either way, I would suspect that 175-180 bpm would be an excellent training intensity for general aerobic capacity and threshold improvement.

    Climbing is great for power development because it is easier to maintain a high intensity due to the gradient. On the flats, you have a harder time mentally because you have to push yourself instead of the hill pushing you. 2-3 times a week for an hour working at your limits will make you a very strong rider.

    2LAP, there of course is a loss of specificity between climbing and flat land riding, but overall, riders who do lots of climbing have very high fitness levels that work out well on the flats. Northern California riders are very strong in general, and I believe it's due to the rich abundance of killer climbs they are forced to ride.

    Aztec, just start doing this stuff. Don't worry about Friel or Carmichael or whatever. If you get tired or too sore, back off. If you can handle it, you are doing what you should be doing. The base period is important, but at some point you have to start doing harder workouts. Go for it bro!!!

    Good luck!!!
     
  7. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    Thanks, JMat. I definitely need more miles, more volume, and am able to take a much higher workload. What I don't know is whether what I am doing is enough to create max adaptations already. I wouldn't want to bother with cranking out 2x the volume if it didn't improve my fitness any quicker (duh).

    I took two weeks off, and am now considering this a fresh start (that was my offseason!). Other than some posters on this forum, I have yet to find anyone who thinks the level of intensity suggested here is appropriate. Now, that doesn't mean it's not, it just means that others disagree. As for me, I'm bored riding slow, and dig intensity -- whether it works or not, it seems like it should! I live in NorCal, minutes from Mount Tam, so I hate the idea of wasting that great climb by not tackling it often. I just wish I could get up it at 160bpm instead of 170+ even in my 39/29!

    I'm still debating whether to hook up w/ CTS. I sure feel like I need a coach, but I'm just not the type to blindly trust what someone tells me to do.
     
  8. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

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    Aztec:

    We are not machines. Stuff written in a book might sound good, and might be a good idea in general to follow, but it doesn't always work out that way. I've know people who were ready to race but didn't because they didn't have enough miles in a certain zone or whatever.

    If you are supposed to have 1,000 miles over so many weeks, and you only have 850 miles, nothing magic is going to happen at mile 1,000 that didn't already occur at mile 850. 1,000 miles is better, but 850 will work. Maybe 300 would work. At some point your mind and body will tell you to start doing more.

    When I first started riding, I rode 50 miles a day, 5-7 days a week, for many months. I rode as fast as I could also, way over normal "base" intensity, like it was a 50 mile time trial. I would not necessarily recommend others go about it like this, but I was into it and it worked good for me.

    Brother, I'm going to cut through the bull**** right now. If you can do Mount Tam this Saturday or Sunday and not blow your knees and back out, or have a heart attack, or be so sore you can't go to work on Monday, then CLIMB THIS WEEKEND!!! As long as you think your body can handle it, consider yourself
    "cleared" for intensity.

    Climb it again on Wednesday if your body feels like it. Ride easy the other days of the week. If you are pressed for time get a quality trainer and ride 20-30 minutes at any intensity. Even 20-30 minutes easy will pay off. Stick with something like this for a month or so, and you will see big results in fitness as long as your body can handle it.

    As far as the pain of the climb goes, it won't really get any easier. You will only fly up faster. That in itself is reward enough to compensate for the suffering factor, especially if you are dropping other riders.

    As far as CTS goes, that's up to you. As a coach, I can tell you the best coach you will ever have is yourself. Coaches help you chart a proper course, but you have to still have to sail the seas by yourself.

    There are so many different ways to train, and many of them will give similar results. Finding a routine that fits your life is one of the harder aspects of coaching. Whatever you do, make sure your program fits your life and gets the results you require.

    Happy climbing!!!
     
  9. TTer

    TTer New Member

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    J-MAT, you were not riding these at 50mile TT intensity! These must have been ridden at Tempo, and if you repeatedly did this 5-7days a week for months I wonder if some of it was even at Tempo pace (level3). I think some of the time must have been at level2 (base building), otherwise you would be worn-out in a matter of weeks, especially those early weeks as your body adjusted to the workload. I therefore think you probably did do a lot of "base" intensity during this phase.
     
  10. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    J-Mat,

    Uh, yeah, I can do Tam. I could probably do it every third day or so at 175-180 bpm for the whole damn 1:14 it took from my house to the peak last time. :) I don't mind the pain [much].
     
  11. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

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    Aztec:

    This is what you should be doing for at least 4-5 weeks or so. If you can climb Mt. Tam 3x week do it, and don't let any more time pass. Try to hold 175-180 bpm the whole climb.

    There is only about 12 weeks until February!!! Maybe just do it once or twice a week for the first couple of weeks and do some easy flat riding on other days. Don't neglect recovery rides and even easy/moderate rides. They may seem like "junk" rides, but it all adds up in the end.

    Keep a log and record HR, time, speeds, etc. Also include subjective comments like "felt great," "was tired," etc. Get more sleep, an extra hour every night would be great.

    You might start getting fried after a few weeks. Maybe go hard one week, easier the next, or go hard 2-3 weeks and then take a recovery week of easy riding. Time, your recovery, and your preferences will determine the best program for recovery.

    I think "Tam" is perfect for you. It pumps you up thinking about it, and you will be forced to work hard the entire climb. One thing to avoid is spending so much time climbing that you neglect hard flat-land riding. For now, focus on Mt. Tam, but after some weeks throw in some flat intervals at speed (instead of climbing) to help cover the bases.

    Good luck!!!
     
  12. Rickw2

    Rickw2 New Member

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    Believe it or not those of us that live out in flat world (Texas) get envious of those that have climbs that take more than 3 minutes. I recently was challenged by a group to go with them and attack a hill called THE WALL... it was steep but short and took me all of 50 seconds to climb... whatever!
     
  13. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    That's funny. My riding mates around here struggle to find a ride longer than 30 miles that DOESN'T include some fairly strenuous climbing. But since the hills are where the traffic isn't, that's what we gravitate to.

    As an update, I did enlist with CTS. I've been riding about 8-12 hours/week, building up volume over three weeks and then having an easier week. Intensity has been very moderate, with intervals mixed in a bit. I cheated here and there and did more climbing the CTS wanted. February's plan includes a LOT more interval work, specifically at Tempo and above pace. Something like 2 hours+ per week.

    So how did all that endurance intensity work out? My HR is without question lower during most efforts. Resting on the sofa once, it hit 49bpm, whereas the lowest I'd ever seen before was maybe 52bpm. I can actually climb now at 165bpm, but of course this is still a very slow pace. On group rides, I've moved up just a bit against the 'year round fit' riders. Perhaps most importantly, 40 miles doesn't leave me tired anymore. I can usually go about my weekend day normally after that. If my rear wasn't so uncomfortable, I could easily ride for longer. A 60 mile ride last week, with nearly 90 mins at 170+bpm left me a wreck, though. But then, I had only two bottles of water/hammer gel, and that cost me dearly toward the end.

    It'll be interesting to see how upping the intensity works.
     
  14. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    I'm looking forward to racing in Norcal next year!

    Good work on getting with a coach and staying on it. There are a heap of people on this website with different training philosophies and coaching ideas - and there is more than one way to get good. However, having someone with experience who can take into account your personal situation and goals will be the best thing you can do for your riding. Try to be disciplined, too, and stay within the zones and types of ride they set - you might not see the results as quickly, but when you come to your target events you'll be glad you did.

    I have to say, this doesn't surprise me much - training at a lower relative intensity will improve your power at that relative intensity. Doing base miles won't make you fly straight up tam now, but it will help you get up it without maxing out your heartrate straight away. Obviously you wouldn't want to be doing this training the week before your most important race, but it will help you, and that sructure is another advantage of having a good coach. Also, AVOID THE BONK!!! I don't think people realise the importance of carb replinishment on long rides - we are talking 40-80g an hour after the first hour, not just a couple of gels and some powerade, try a pocket full of muesli bars, powerbars, gels, lollies, whatever you like eating. I know I spent a lot of time training when I was younger without eating properly. This seriously negates training benefits and ability to recover - have a chat to your coach about how best to meet your nutritional needs on long rides.

    If you've done the work beforehand, you'll be kicking it buddy!!!
     
  15. larrynipon

    larrynipon New Member

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    I think a lot of us know what to do, and probably, in a static environment, when to do it. I think a coach has the experience to interpret your performance data and direct when to back off, pile it on, etc. Going through a coaching process for 1 full period (on/off season) will teach you a lot. I'm working with CTS now, and finding myself surprised by some of the recommendations, but am finding that some of my tougher workouts have a different dynamic than they used to.


     
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