Tookie Williams & the death penalty

[DiabloScott]

That's a very good analogy, JH.
Well put.

I don't understand that analogy at all... at least as it is supposed to be analogous with the death penalty.

As rationalization - you don't take it from the teller because it belongs to the bank, you take it in the parking lot because it belongs to no one... if someone says "oh that's mine, the wind just blew it out of my hand" you hand it over. If the amount of money is large enough that you think someone might report it missing, then it would be reasonable to report it to the bank. Yes, we rationalize - no, that's not a bad thing if not misused.

Agreed that celebreties have way too much influence on politics.

 

[jhuskey]

I don't understand that analogy at all... at least as it is supposed to be analogous with the death penalty.

As rationalization - you don't take it from the teller because it belongs to the bank, you take it in the parking lot because it belongs to no one... if someone says "oh that's mine, the wind just blew it out of my hand" you hand it over. If the amount of money is large enough that you think someone might report it missing, then it would be reasonable to report it to the bank. Yes, we rationalize - no, that's not a bad thing if not misused.

Agreed that celebreties have way too much influence on politics.

The analogy is that we all rationalize at different levels and that the original premise was that the money did not belong to you and in the end it still doesn't except by default.
If you kill someone with a gun you may get the death penalty. If you run someone down in a car you will probably get a slap on the wrist and a small fine,discounting civil suits.
The point is the person is just as dead and most of us do misuse rationializing,in that it is ok to steal because I don't have what he has,or they won't miss it they have plenty.
I asked in an earlier post that if you knew someone was going to kill an innocent person, would you kill them to save that person in turn making you a murderer.Or a good samaritan?

 

[roadhog]

I mostly want to know if Jesse Jackson will be standing outside the gates of the facility in Mississippi that will soon put a Mr. John Nixon to death (apparently the next scheduled one in the country). I'm guessing......no. Hmmm, how does this guy choose his battles then...

Damn, would you believe that Mr. Nixon has now expired in Mississippi and Mr. Jackson was *not* outside the gates? And nor was that M*A*S*H guy! Next opportunity for them to be consistent: Clarence Allen in CA next month. I won't hold my breath.

 

[DiabloScott]

The analogy is that we all rationalize at different levels and that the original premise was that the money did not belong to you and in the end it still doesn't except by default.
If you kill someone with a gun you may get the death penalty. If you run someone down in a car you will probably get a slap on the wrist and a small fine,discounting civil suits.
The point is the person is just as dead and most of us do misuse rationializing,in that it is ok to steal because I don't have what he has,or they won't miss it they have plenty.
I asked in an earlier post that if you knew someone was going to kill an innocent person, would you kill them to save that person in turn making you a murderer.Or a good samaritan?

You're confusing punishment of the offender with the results of the crime. Murdering someone because you're a violent creep is a bigger offense than killing someone because you were negligent. The results are the same, the crime is different.

Your finding $20 because it fell out of my pocket while I was digging for my keys is different than getting $20 because you stuck a gun in my face and made me give it to you. Either way I'm out $20 and you're up $20. In one scenario you're a lucky *******, in the other you're a violent *******. The results are the same, the offense is completely different.

Yeah, I'd kill someone to save an innocent person if that were the only option - that's not murder, it's justifiable homocide. I'd also kill a rat before he got into my dog's kibble bin rather than wait until he got a belly full first.

 

[jhuskey]

You're confusing punishment of the offender with the results of the crime. Murdering someone because you're a violent creep is a bigger offense than killing someone because you were negligent. The results are the same, the crime is different.

Your finding $20 because it fell out of my pocket while I was digging for my keys is different than getting $20 because you stuck a gun in my face and made me give it to you. Either way I'm out $20 and you're up $20. In one scenario you're a lucky *******, in the other you're a violent *******. The results are the same, the offense is completely different.

Yeah, I'd kill someone to save an innocent person if that were the only option - that's not murder, it's justifiable homocide. I'd also kill a rat before he got into my dog's kibble bin rather than wait until he got a belly full first.

No I am not trying to confuse the issues, just trying to point out that while you think it is ok to punish someone such as Tookie for what he did and the extremness of it Lim and Pro would not want it done no matter how extreme the crime.
What is justified to you is not to another and I would probaly kill them to sve someone also.
I just wanted to try and inject some additional thinking into this discussion about what is or is not perceived to be right nad or wrong.

Here is another one . Is it ok to take those little soaps out of a hotel? I think so.
How about a case of them?
I hope you take my point that it is sometimes the peceived quantity or maliciousness of a crime or how it is carried out that turns an opinion, and yes I undertand the perceived state of mind of a person but is it not also the state of mind of the ones that judge that make the difference in the magnitude of a crime?

 

[DiabloScott]

I hope you take my point that it is sometimes the peceived quantity or maliciousness of a crime or how it is carried out that turns an opinion, and yes I undertand the perceived state of mind of a person but is it not also the state of mind of the ones that judge that make the difference in the magnitude of a crime?

Sure I'll take that point.

The real divide though is between people who see a human life as something unalterably precious, and those that think someone's life can become unimportant through vicious subhuman acts of evil. All the other rhetoric about possible mistakes, redemption, and revenge is just fodder for arguments.

 

[jhuskey]

Sure I'll take that point.

The real divide though is between people who see a human life as something unalterably precious, and those that think someone's life can become unimportant through vicious subhuman acts of evil. All the other rhetoric about possible mistakes, redemption, and revenge is just fodder for arguments.

And the debate of an afterlife whereas you will be judges after death in contrast to oblivion and death as finality.

BTW: I am really in no hurry to confirm either theory.

 

[ilpirata]

I agree with you. I think society can be protected without executions. But this is the culture of death we live in.

I see Tookie Williams was executed during the week after spending years on death row.

My question is ; is the death penalty the correct sentence for people who commit murder?

My own view is that the State should never be allowed to enforce capital punishment for crimes, no matter how despicable the act.

 

[MountainPro]

http://www.mezomorf.com/national/news-16275.html

there you go, its on paragraph 8.

12 minutes to insert a needle? for **** sake, who trained that nurse?

please show one, just ONE source that said it took several doses to kill him, or that it took 20 minutes to die, or that was exasperated that he wasn't dead yet

 

[jhuskey]

http://www.mezomorf.com/national/news-16275.html

there you go, its on paragraph 8.

12 minutes to insert a needle? for **** sake, who trained that nurse?

J Mengele,who else?

 

[Carrera]

Agreed. Somewhere I have a speech made around 400 BC on the theme by a Greek orator and dealing with the futility of state murder.
In my book anyone who takes part in the planned murder of another human being is committing murder, plain and simple.
Plus there is no way the Bible can be invoked. The Bible teaches one cannot be judge and jury unless one is blameless. Seeing as we are all flawed beings we cannot judge whether another has the right to life or not. That is for nature to decide.
I do believe killing is justified in a case where you are defending your own right to life and you have no choice at the time in defence of home and family. But capital punishment is merely premeditated murder and it's plain wrong.
I was also horrifed to see people in New York waving death penalty banners outside a recently opened school for gays and lesbians, calling for such people to be executed in Jesus's name.
It simply beggars belief.

Agreed !

I too can well understand people wishing to seek revenge but it's not the relatives of the victims who terminate the life of the convicted, it is the State
that executes the perpetrator.
And that is one reason I object to capital punishement because "the State" is by definition open to human error.

Also i object to executions on moral grounds.
I don't accept that it is morally right to execute another human being - even if that human being is found to have done the most despicable acts.
I do believe in punishment for crimes and - hearing what some folks say about three hot meals and accomodation for life - I wonder how many people have ever visited a prison?

 

[jhuskey]

Agreed. Somewhere I have a speech made around 400 BC on the theme by a Greek orator and dealing with the futility of state murder.
In my book anyone who takes part in the planned murder of another human being is committing murder, plain and simple.
Plus there is no way the Bible can be invoked. The Bible teaches one cannot be judge and jury unless one is blameless. Seeing as we are all flawed beings we cannot judge whether another has the right to life or not. That is for nature to decide.
I do believe killing is justified in a case where you are defending your own right to life and you have no choice at the time in defence of home and family. But capital punishment is merely premeditated murder and it's plain wrong.
I was also horrifed to see people in New York waving death penalty banners outside a recently opened school for gays and lesbians, calling for such people to be executed in Jesus's name.
It simply beggars belief.

All flawed? Nobody is perfect? I like to think that nobody else is perfect.

 

[DiabloScott]

Agreed. Somewhere I have a speech made around 400 BC on the theme by a Greek orator and dealing with the futility of state murder.

So what? This argument has been going on for 25 centuries - I'll bet real American money that I can find a counter argument by another Greek orator of the same credentials of the same era - not that they'd have any more or less credibility today.

Plus there is no way the Bible can be invoked. The Bible teaches one cannot be judge and jury unless one is blameless. Seeing as we are all flawed beings we cannot judge whether another has the right to life or not. That is for nature to decide.

The bible is invoked all the time on this topic and every other topic ever discussed. It's largely a work of rumors and its readers give it far too much authority.

I was also horrifed to see people in New York waving death penalty banners outside a recently opened school for gays and lesbians, calling for such people to be executed in Jesus's name.
It simply beggars belief.

This is a problem with fundamental religious fanatics, not with capital punishment proponents. I'll bet you cannot find a single person who believes in any kind of punishment for gays or lesbians that is NOT a religious whacko.

 

[MountainPro]

J Mengele,who else?

I thought it was Dr Crippin.

it suggests in the atricle that the nurse was under a lot of pressure because of the event....da ***** got stage fright.

i remember they make the same excuse for Bush for failing to articulate a coherent sentence when speaking publically. It was false then and it is false now.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

12 minutes to insert a needle? for **** sake, who trained that nurse?

I wonder if Tookie took 12 minutes to pull the trigger of the shotgun he used to shoot his 4 victims in the back of the head!

 

[jhuskey]

I thought it was Dr Crippin.

it suggests in the atricle that the nurse was under a lot of pressure because of the event....da ***** got stage fright.

i remember they make the same excuse for Bush for failing to articulate a coherent sentence when speaking publically. It was false then and it is false now.

MPid you get your bike?

 

[MountainPro]

he wouldnt be much of a gangster if he he did....

he was probably better at shooting people than the 'technician' was administering a simple injection...

I wonder if Tookie took 12 minutes to pull the trigger of the shotgun he used to shoot his 4 victims in the back of the head!

 

[MountainPro]

MPid you get your bike?

yeppers, arrived last week...

photos here >> http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=2428242&postcount=12

 

[Colorado Ryder]

he wouldnt be much of a gangster if he he did....

he was probably better at shooting people than the 'technician' was administering a simple injection...

You sure have a lot of sympathy for ol' Tookie. But you haven't mentioned having any sympathy for his victims.

 

[Chance3290]

You sure have a lot of sympathy for ol' Tookie. But you haven't mentioned having any sympathy for his victims.

I've noticed this too. He murdered innocent people, and he was responsible for forming one of the most destructive gangs in the US. Had he lived, he would have still had input into the gang. Redeemed my ass. Don't let his picture on the kiddie books fool you (as so many have been) he still had communication with the Crips leadership, right up until his death.
And for those who seem so concerned about his mental state, as they took so long to put the needle in his arm, please mail your concerns to the families of his victims.
You talk about cruel and inhumane punishment of the death penalty, but you have little regard for the victims. What does that say about the human race?
Let tookie rot in hell.
NOTE: Murder is the unlawful taking of human life. If it is legal to do so, it is not murder.
And why is everyone blaming Gov Arnold for his clown dying? It's like he found him guilty. Every court looked at the case and found the guilty verdict to be correct. Do they blame the judge, the jury, the appellate court, the Supreme Court, the 9th,-most liberal court in the land? Nope, just Arnold. It makes you think. (Or, in their case...not think)