Tookie Williams & the death penalty
- Thread starter limerickman
- Start date
"Under heavy police presence, mourners including gang members flashing hand signs waited in line to enter the 1,500-seat Bethel AME Church for a ceremoney that stretched more than four hours.
After the service, many of those outside the church dropped to the grund after hearing what sounded like three gunshots."
"Vendors sold T-shirts with Williams' picture."
Quote from Snoop Dogg; "It's nine-fifteen on twelve-thirteen and another black king will be taken from the scene."
Didn't tookie renounce the gangs and work SO hard to get kids away from gangs and violence? I quess it didn't take.
I think that if the nobel people hear about this, tookie's chances for a peace prize are in serious jeopardy.
I wonder if bianca jagger and the guy from MASH attended the funeral.
After the service, many of those outside the church dropped to the grund after hearing what sounded like three gunshots."
"Vendors sold T-shirts with Williams' picture."
Quote from Snoop Dogg; "It's nine-fifteen on twelve-thirteen and another black king will be taken from the scene."
Didn't tookie renounce the gangs and work SO hard to get kids away from gangs and violence? I quess it didn't take.
I think that if the nobel people hear about this, tookie's chances for a peace prize are in serious jeopardy.
I wonder if bianca jagger and the guy from MASH attended the funeral.
If I was a Californian, I would have objected to havng to pay for police protection at the funeral.........Let the public watch the result of Tookies legacy at the funeral. Let the people that attended the funeral worry about the violence that could have occurred without police protection. That is what the people that live around the gangs live with everyday. That is Tookies true legacy, not some average written childrens book that would not have even been published if it wasn't for the fact of his death row sentence.Chance3290 said:
A Nobel prize???? Whoever nominated him has done nothing but cheapen that award for all the other winners.
I am against the death penalty, because I know innocent people are put to death that get caught in the system . But make the argument against the penalty a reasonable argument, not one based on this man's percieved greatness.
This world would have been a better place if Tookie Williams was not born. Simple as that.
okay Cheapie...i know my info was incorrect.
at the time it was reported by the BBC that it took several injections to kill him due to a technical blunder by the nurse/technician. This later releavled itself to be false and that they were simply unable to find the vein and nothing to do with injecting several doses. Sorry bout that.
at the time it was reported by the BBC that it took several injections to kill him due to a technical blunder by the nurse/technician. This later releavled itself to be false and that they were simply unable to find the vein and nothing to do with injecting several doses. Sorry bout that.
cheapie said:
likewise,
merry christmas..
merry christmas..
cheapie said:yeah well....you..umm...i guess i can go back to thinking you're a cool person now.
MountainPro said:
Simplify this:
Is it OK for the State to kill people it believes to be a danger to its society or have commited offences that that state deems reprehencable?
If no, cool no more capital punishment
If yes however, why is Saddam on trial?
Now before anyone jumps in with "Thats different" let me put it this way;
Saddam was head of Iraq, right or wrong, and was in essence the state.
If he, being the state, believes a person or people cause a threat to the state ect, he either has the right to kill them or not. If not, why can George Bush? If he can why is he on trial?
Both Bush and Saddam are dictators, both ilegally invaded another country and both killed people in the name of the state, why is one on trial and free?
You are aware that Saddam is not on trial in the US, aren't you?Fixey said:
Your personal opinion seems to cloud you to the facts. Bush, like him or not, is not a dictator, he was elected. He did not start capital punishment in the US, he did not find tookie guilty or sentence him to death.
Chance3290 said:
Yes I am aware Saddan is not on trial in the US. Are you aware how it is he came to be on trial?
Your personal opinion seems to have clouded you to the facts. A dictator can be elected. Anyone who makes decisions that are contrary to the laws of the country he governs, who holds prisoners illegaly off shore so as not to come under his own laws and gives direct orders to bug citizins "For the protection of thier civil liberties" is a dictator.
And for the record Bush is pro - capital punishment and as head of state he is ultimatly responsible for state murder regardles of who found him quilty or sentenced him. Some American once said the buck stops here I believe...
Yes, he came to be on trial for the massacre of his own countrymen. I believe the choice of death he chose for the Kurds was nerve gas..... What nerve gas does at 1st is just to make the eyes water, then the blisters begin, and then of course the internal organs start bleeding internally ..... It is estimated that 5000 Kurds died this way in a manner of a few days..... The trial also talks of his systematic torture of political opponents...Fixey said:
Tell me which dictator has been elected, and stayed in office through the election process that was not backed by the military of his choice. The prisioners of Guat, and I believe that is what you are refering to , are being held legally. Just because the ACLU says it is illegal,does not make it illegal.Fixey said:
Fixey said:
Wrong ..... Just for the record.....The lawmakers determine that ...At both the state level and at the federal level. We elect those lawmakers to Congress and the Senate. And reps at the state level...... The lawmakers determine the will of those that elected them.
And this thread is about Tookie Williams..... What purpose did he serve on this earth but to bring death to many, directly and indirectly??? Where are the celebrities trying to grab the spotlight standing up for the victims families??
If a person wants to argue the death penalty, argue from a position that makes sense...... Tookie Williams in not a good choice.
Its stuff like this that gets you into the tin-foil hat club. Whenever a thread starts out about one thing, in never fails that a tin-foil hat wearer will start the Anti-Bush ****.Fixey said:
Try to stay focused here, ok.
1) Deterrent? I don't thinks so. When someone is in the process of intentionally killing someone, it seems unlikely that said person is weighing up whether they are likely to get years or the death penalty before proceeding. Most crimes appear to be committed by people who do not anticipate being caught and held accountable.
2) Prison is a nice place to be? I was put in a jail in Pakistan. That was not a nice place to be. My short stay there was longer than I desired and, I guess that most people in the worst ghetto's of the USA would also look disfavourably upon staying in such a place. Perhaps you need to redress your prison facilities with the help of a little consultation from the Pakistani military.
3) The victims' families? My wife was the victim of an extremely viscious violent attack / attempted murder (in front of our 5 year old daughter) 2 years ago. I remember, shortly after hearing of it (she was in Australia and I was in Malaysia), making a conscious decision not to seek revenge (although there was certainly the facility for doing so). My wife and daughter did the same in their own way and time. Aside from a victim's statement, all decisions on guilt and punishment were handed over to the court without further representation. I am glad that we did not take this any further. It has allowed us to move on. It enabled me to see how society can react very emotively and it made me question how I would react if I were in the position of juror in a case of despicable violence.
I, personally, cannot condone putting another human being to death. That does not mean that, in a given circumstance, I would not kill - I'm guessing that I probably would. It is just not something that I can condone. I can understand killing in self-defense. The death penalty is not self-defense by society. Self-defense is necessitated by lack of alternative. There are alternatives to the death penalty.
If I were a juror in a case where a guilty verdict would allow for the death penalty to be invoked, I would have to bow out on finding the defendant guilty. I am personally glad that Australia does not have the death penalty and, as such, will not place me in that situation.
As a completely irrelevant aside, I did find a murder victim once, when drilling in outback Australia. He was a 21 year old who, following some kind of altercation over a drugs deal, had been hung from a tree after having, apparently, been tortured. His body had separated at the neck and lay crumpled on the ground, with his head still hanging upside down, swinging in the breeze. When we contacted the police, they asked if they could come out the following day to investigate, as it was Sunday and the footy was on TV that afternoon - gotta love the dedication of those Aussie police - great sports fans!
2) Prison is a nice place to be? I was put in a jail in Pakistan. That was not a nice place to be. My short stay there was longer than I desired and, I guess that most people in the worst ghetto's of the USA would also look disfavourably upon staying in such a place. Perhaps you need to redress your prison facilities with the help of a little consultation from the Pakistani military.
3) The victims' families? My wife was the victim of an extremely viscious violent attack / attempted murder (in front of our 5 year old daughter) 2 years ago. I remember, shortly after hearing of it (she was in Australia and I was in Malaysia), making a conscious decision not to seek revenge (although there was certainly the facility for doing so). My wife and daughter did the same in their own way and time. Aside from a victim's statement, all decisions on guilt and punishment were handed over to the court without further representation. I am glad that we did not take this any further. It has allowed us to move on. It enabled me to see how society can react very emotively and it made me question how I would react if I were in the position of juror in a case of despicable violence.
I, personally, cannot condone putting another human being to death. That does not mean that, in a given circumstance, I would not kill - I'm guessing that I probably would. It is just not something that I can condone. I can understand killing in self-defense. The death penalty is not self-defense by society. Self-defense is necessitated by lack of alternative. There are alternatives to the death penalty.
If I were a juror in a case where a guilty verdict would allow for the death penalty to be invoked, I would have to bow out on finding the defendant guilty. I am personally glad that Australia does not have the death penalty and, as such, will not place me in that situation.
As a completely irrelevant aside, I did find a murder victim once, when drilling in outback Australia. He was a 21 year old who, following some kind of altercation over a drugs deal, had been hung from a tree after having, apparently, been tortured. His body had separated at the neck and lay crumpled on the ground, with his head still hanging upside down, swinging in the breeze. When we contacted the police, they asked if they could come out the following day to investigate, as it was Sunday and the footy was on TV that afternoon - gotta love the dedication of those Aussie police - great sports fans!
MountainPro said:
11 MINUTES is a hell of a long time to find a vein. I had 3 samples a day taken from my arms for two weeks. Eventually a doctor turned up looking a bit sheepish, fumbled around for a few minutes, collapsed a couple... I asked him if this was his first time, joking a bit, and he answered "Yes" in all seriousness. At that point I did it myself.
Jesus H Incompetance.
Sounds like Tookie had the same dude.
Prisons in Pakistan are a long way from our 'kinder and gentler' prisons/home away from home.
Here's life in the US. If you go to inner-city neighborhoods you will find young black men sitting on porches or standing on street corners. They are not working...at least not in a way most people work. Most people with jobs do not sleep all day and then sit on a porch or stand on a street all night. These people are players/hustlers/whatever you want to call them. They have to hustle to get their money. They have to find someone to fix their food and clean their clothes.
If or when these people are put in jail, do you know what they do? They sit or stand and have others take care of their needs. They no longer have to worry about food or clean clothes. Plus, they make contacts and learn...to hustle.
Anyone looking at tookie cannot possibly believe his life in prison was bad. He had access to books, tv, movies, weights, celebrites, drugs, sex, his gang associates, etc. That's not punishment, that's simply a change of address.
Anyone who doubts what I've written, please come and see. I'll put you up for a night, drive you around, and show you the legacy of tookie and his ilk.
Here's life in the US. If you go to inner-city neighborhoods you will find young black men sitting on porches or standing on street corners. They are not working...at least not in a way most people work. Most people with jobs do not sleep all day and then sit on a porch or stand on a street all night. These people are players/hustlers/whatever you want to call them. They have to hustle to get their money. They have to find someone to fix their food and clean their clothes.
If or when these people are put in jail, do you know what they do? They sit or stand and have others take care of their needs. They no longer have to worry about food or clean clothes. Plus, they make contacts and learn...to hustle.
Anyone looking at tookie cannot possibly believe his life in prison was bad. He had access to books, tv, movies, weights, celebrites, drugs, sex, his gang associates, etc. That's not punishment, that's simply a change of address.
Anyone who doubts what I've written, please come and see. I'll put you up for a night, drive you around, and show you the legacy of tookie and his ilk.
Perhaps you need those Pakistani consultants to advise on how to make prison life in the USA slightly less appealing. Hell, I'd rather live in New Zealand than spend time in a Pakistani jailChance3290 said:
Do you still have Hard Labour in any of the States? A friend of mine put together a programme in New Zealand for young incarcerates whereby, if they chose Hard Labour (Boot Camp), they could get a sentence reduction. They used to work on the Government Forestry programmes and, having worked with my mate up in Papua New Guinea, I would guess that the Hard Labour was....Hard. It worked well and turned out some well-disciplined individuals. Unfortunately, the Government wouldn't accept them for ongoing work after their release as they had criminal records. The whole thing fell apart when civil libertarians attacked the programme as being inhumane - kind of weird when it was voluntary. I thought it was good for the community (less incarceration time, benefits from the work done and released inmates came out as productive people) and good for the inmates (less incarceration time and come out as better individuals). I guess not...
Boot camps can be effective for young-up to 15 year olds. Unfortunately, once they get out of the camp, their right back where they started, right where the problem has been for decades. And if they get pinched after age 16 they go to big boy jail.
My thoughts-if you're in prison for up to five years, you go to school. First high school then trade school. This is the systems (and inmates) chance for rehabilitation If you're in for more than five years, or a repeat offender, make prison life miserable. For people who grow up in inner-city USA, prison is not a deterrent.
My thoughts-if you're in prison for up to five years, you go to school. First high school then trade school. This is the systems (and inmates) chance for rehabilitation If you're in for more than five years, or a repeat offender, make prison life miserable. For people who grow up in inner-city USA, prison is not a deterrent.
when my wife was pregnant she went for a scan and was asked to provide a blood sample. We had a student nurse who had difficulty finding the vein. After maybe 2 or 3 minutes she apologied and went to get the nurse. The nurse came in, took the arm and inserted the needs sucessfully first time in a matter of seconds. For an experienced medical professional it is every day stuff.
There was no excuse.
There was no excuse.
darkboong said:
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