Tookie Williams & the death penalty



darkboong said:
11 MINUTES is a hell of a long time to find a vein. I had 3 samples a day taken from my arms for two weeks. Eventually a doctor turned up looking a bit sheepish, fumbled around for a few minutes, collapsed a couple... I asked him if this was his first time, joking a bit, and he answered "Yes" in all seriousness. At that point I did it myself.
Jesus H Incompetance.
Sounds like Tookie had the same dude.
I'm just guessing here but, I think that at nurse school, when they're filling out the "Where would you like to work?" section on the application, I think PRISON NURSE is not at the top of many lists.
 
wolfix said:
Yes, he came to be on trial for the massacre of his own countrymen. I believe the choice of death he chose for the Kurds was nerve gas..... What nerve gas does at 1st is just to make the eyes water, then the blisters begin, and then of course the internal organs start bleeding internally ..... It is estimated that 5000 Kurds died this way in a manner of a few days..... The trial also talks of his systematic torture of political opponents...

I have to assume that you added this info for emotional impact? why do you feel the need to bring emotions to a logical debate? either killing your citizins is ok or it is not!

wolfix said:
Tell me which dictator has been elected, and stayed in office through the election process that was not backed by the military of his choice. The prisioners of Guat, and I believe that is what you are refering to , are being held legally. Just because the ACLU says it is illegal,does not make it illegal.

Actually I am refering to the bases that where reportedly set up around the world in secret to hold prisoners out of the public eye, not Gaut, which I have never heard of btw.
I have no idea who or what the ACLU is but holding people who have never been found quilty of any crime for as long as you like cannot be legal in many countries im sure!

I have been accused of getting off topic and asked to refocus so here goes, I do not believe in capital punishment. I dont really care what this fellow did, I am sure it was truly disgusting, but as a humanist I believe people are born basicly good and givin the chance will choose right from wrong, all other things being equal. If someone ends up commiting violent and horrific acts against society there is generally a reason. Whilst this in no way detracts from thier guilt it does help understand why they may have commited such crimes. I work with these people every day of my life, some of them have done truly horrible things but when you read thier files and see what has happened in thier lifes I personally find myself wondering how I would have turned out any differantly. A religous man might say "There, but for the grace of god, go I".

I have no interest in getting into a sociologists debate but again I personally believe that society creates alot of the enviroments that produce people whom commit these crimes. For that same society to then sit in fatal judgement on thier own creations does not sit well with me.
 
EoinC said:
A friend of mine put together a programme in New Zealand for young incarcerates whereby, if they chose Hard Labour (Boot Camp), they could get a sentence reduction. They used to work on the Government Forestry programmes and, having worked with my mate up in Papua New Guinea, I would guess that the Hard Labour was....Hard. It worked well and turned out some well-disciplined individuals. Unfortunately, the Government wouldn't accept them for ongoing work after their release as they had criminal records. The whole thing fell apart when civil libertarians attacked the programme as being inhumane - kind of weird when it was voluntary. I thought it was good for the community (less incarceration time, benefits from the work done and released inmates came out as productive people) and good for the inmates (less incarceration time and come out as better individuals). I guess not...

Inmates can still choose to work on the foresty programe. And since the government contracts out alot of its work now most can get jobs when they are released. I do not believe it reduces the sentence though. And yes, it is bloody hard work.
 
Fixey said:
Inmates can still choose to work on the foresty programe. And since the government contracts out alot of its work now most can get jobs when they are released. I do not believe it reduces the sentence though. And yes, it is bloody hard work.
Fixey, the programme must have been restarted then. My mate was a Warden back in the 80's, and was also a Forestry Consultant. From what he told me, the Government backed out of it not long after it got up and running. I'm pleased to hear that it's a goer again.
My friend told me that there was a marked change in attitudes in many of the inmates from when they started on the programme to when they left. He found it disappointing that the Government Forestry Service did not follow-up with employment for the inmates after they had served their time.

Happy New Year, All.
Eoin
 
Tookie,Tookie,Tookie,Tookie
Tookie,Tookie,Tookie,Ta
Apurate mi burrito que ya vamos a llegar...

(Everone sing!)

Con mi burrito sabanero voy camino de Belen
Si me ven, si me ven, voy camino de Belen.....
 
Induray said:
Tookie,Tookie,Tookie,Tookie
Tookie,Tookie,Tookie,Ta
Apurate mi burrito que ya vamos a llegar...

(Everone sing!)

Con mi burrito sabanero voy camino de Belen
Si me ven, si me ven, voy camino de Belen.....


Con mi cuatrito voy cantando, mi burrito va trotando
Con mi cuatrito voy cantando, mi burrito va trotando
Lucerito mañanero ilumina mi sendero
Lucerito mañanero ilumina mi sendero

Felices.
 
EoinC said:
Fixey, the programme must have been restarted then. My mate was a Warden back in the 80's, and was also a Forestry Consultant. From what he told me, the Government backed out of it not long after it got up and running. I'm pleased to hear that it's a goer again.
My friend told me that there was a marked change in attitudes in many of the inmates from when they started on the programme to when they left. He found it disappointing that the Government Forestry Service did not follow-up with employment for the inmates after they had served their time.

Happy New Year, All.
Eoin

Cant be sure it is the same programe but I know rsidents at Paparoa can work in the forestry and alot get jobs when they leave. Most tell me it is hard yakka but beats the hell out of daytime soaps.

Prison life over here is not that tough, but shagged if I could do it. The food sucks for a start.

2 things I know (or at least I think I know ;) ) , prison is not a deterent (Niether is the death penalty) and crime rates and media sensationalism go hand in hand.
 
jhuskey said:
I have already posted to this in another forum and asked a question. If you were aware this individual was going to take innocent lives and you could stop him by killing him.
Would you kill him to save the innocent or let them die and let the courts decide the punishment?
Are you talking about dubya?
:D
 
wolfix said:
Yes, he came to be on trial for the massacre of his own countrymen. I believe the choice of death he chose for the Kurds was nerve gas..... What nerve gas does at 1st is just to make the eyes water, then the blisters begin, and then of course the internal organs start bleeding internally ..... It is estimated that 5000 Kurds died this way in a manner of a few days..... The trial also talks of his systematic torture of political opponents...

Tell me which dictator has been elected, and stayed in office through the election process that was not backed by the military of his choice. The prisioners of Guat, and I believe that is what you are refering to , are being held legally. Just because the ACLU says it is illegal,does not make it illegal.




Wrong ..... Just for the record.....The lawmakers determine that ...At both the state level and at the federal level. We elect those lawmakers to Congress and the Senate. And reps at the state level...... The lawmakers determine the will of those that elected them.
And this thread is about Tookie Williams..... What purpose did he serve on this earth but to bring death to many, directly and indirectly??? Where are the celebrities trying to grab the spotlight standing up for the victims families??
If a person wants to argue the death penalty, argue from a position that makes sense...... Tookie Williams in not a good choice.
The us has a legal system of statutory law and common law,based on the common law of england.English cases are regularly cited in american courts to establish precedent and "find the law".
The right of "Habeas Corpus" is an integral and vital part of both legal systems.The right to a fair trial has been denied to the prisoners in guantanamo bay.The ACLU is not alone.It would be difficult to find a lawyer in any common law jurisdiction who would agree that these imprisonments are lawful.They violate the basis of the us legal system.
 
Fixey said:
Simplify this:

Is it OK for the State to kill people it believes to be a danger to its society or have commited offences that that state deems reprehencable?

If no, cool no more capital punishment

If yes however, why is Saddam on trial?

Now before anyone jumps in with "Thats different" let me put it this way;
Saddam was head of Iraq, right or wrong, and was in essence the state.
If he, being the state, believes a person or people cause a threat to the state ect, he either has the right to kill them or not. If not, why can George Bush? If he can why is he on trial?

Both Bush and Saddam are dictators, both ilegally invaded another country and both killed people in the name of the state, why is one on trial and free?
Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer from the reperblicans.The trial is being held in iraq by a puppet government that was never elected precisely because they have the death penalty and the us is attempting to lay a veneer of legal respectability on a show trial.They don't want saddam and his cronies alive to embarrass them about their complicity in his actions.
Here's a question for the reperbs.Who should go on trial (at an international tribunal) for the deaths of the many thousands of innocent people killed by us forces,far more than saddam and his cronies are now charged with?
I wont hold my breath waiting for an answer.
 
Felt_Rider said:
Ann Coulter helped me put the actor/politician agenda issue in perspective.

Her comment towards the George Clooney's and Barbra Streisand's of Hollywood, "Shut up and entertain me."

:)
Not that ann coulter is biased in any way of course.
:rolleyes:
 
Dr.Hairybiker said:
Chance3290 said:
For those who think life without parole is a punishment for some people, you are wrong.
Most US prison today have sex, drugs, three hots and a cot, whatever else you need and whatever else you wanted on the outside.
If some rich guy murders someone, then life in prison might be a good punishment. But for someone who grows up in poverty, and lives off government assistance all his life...life in prison is just about the same as life on the street.
And NO, Dondare, prisons are not hell. If they were, then life w/o parole would be appropriate.
I won't mourn tookie. The Crips have been responsible for murder, rape, robbery, drug usage, etc. His victim count is in the thousands.
I can't say if the death penalty is a deterrent or not. But I do agree that if you're going to use it, don't wait 20+ years. Use the appeals process and when that's done. Kill them.
"Sex,drugs,three hots and a cot". Also rape,Aids,hepatitis and TB.

1. Not all prisons are created equal. Not even close. One prison might be tolerable for one certain individual, and that same person might not last 1 day in another prison, or even in a different part of the same prison. Trust me, some prisons are worse than what you can imagine hell is. And some prisons are not.
Yep.Poor black people go to the bad ones. Rich white people go to the good ones.
 
Dr.Hairybiker said:
I agree with Dondare. If someone is found guiltly of committing murder, and is sentenced to death, they shouldn't sit on death row for 25 years, they should be put to death promptly. The whole thing should be a distant memory.

I would think that most people who don't believe in the death penalty have never had someone close to them get senselessly murdered.
I have. :( :( :( :(
 
roadhog said:
I am sort of on the fence myself with respect to the death penalty. I have no issue with the truly guilty people receiving this punishment. No issue at all. But the fact that we occasionally free an innocent man who was wrongly convicted gives me reason to pause. So I'm torn.

Here is a story of interest though. At the time of Tim McVeigh's execution, I was living in Germany. The evening of the execution I was at a local restaurant chatting with some local German folks that I knew from town. The execution became a topic of conversation for a minute. I had assumed that virtually all Europeans thought it was a heinous and barbaric thing that we Americans do in this way, but I was surprised at their reaction. All of them (a handful) were very enthusiastic about their support of the situation with McVeigh. They thought it was pretty cool that we would get rid of him in that way as compared to what they claim would have happened in their country (slap on the wrist and few years in jail at worst). They were actually envious.

Granted, this was a very small sample and I believe that the comments by L'man and MP are more indicative of general European sentiment. But still an interesting experience, nonetheless.

And I still think Jesse Jackson's behavior is fascinating...
I bet they were envious.They only had Zyklon B.
 
roadhog said:
I am sort of on the fence myself with respect to the death penalty. I have no issue with the truly guilty people receiving this punishment. No issue at all. But the fact that we occasionally free an innocent man who was wrongly convicted gives me reason to pause. So I'm torn.

Here is a story of interest though. At the time of Tim McVeigh's execution, I was living in Germany. The evening of the execution I was at a local restaurant chatting with some local German folks that I knew from town. The execution became a topic of conversation for a minute. I had assumed that virtually all Europeans thought it was a heinous and barbaric thing that we Americans do in this way, but I was surprised at their reaction. All of them (a handful) were very enthusiastic about their support of the situation with McVeigh. They thought it was pretty cool that we would get rid of him in that way as compared to what they claim would have happened in their country (slap on the wrist and few years in jail at worst). They were actually envious.

Granted, this was a very small sample and I believe that the comments by L'man and MP are more indicative of general European sentiment. But still an interesting experience, nonetheless.

And I still think Jesse Jackson's behavior is fascinating...
The last time I looked,more than 70 people had been freed from death row by DNA evidence and there are probably more by now.They all received fair trials of course.Noone will ever know how many innocent people have been executed for crimes they could not have committed.That alone should be enough reason to abolish the death penalty.
I have known four people who were charged with murder.
1.Bob's 2 year old child was left alone in a bathtub with 6ins of water in it,for about 20 mins.The child managed to turn the tap on,fill the bath to a higher level and she subsequently drowned.When questioned by the police (an hour after the child had died) he reacted angrily and told the police to f... off. That and the fact that he had long hair were enough for the investigating officers to decide that a 2 year old child did not have the strength to turn on the tap and he was charged with murder.He spent 18 months in prison on remand before he was acquitted.It was a very hard 18 months because of the offence he was charged with.Fortunately his parents could afford a decent defence.Had he been poor and black it would probably been a different story.
While there was no death penalty involved there may as well have been. He committed suicide a few years later.
2. Three brothers were water-skiing when one of them fell and the other 2 turned the boat around to pick him up.Unfortunately they ran over him and killed him and despite the lack of motive they were charged with his murder.They also were acquitted.Fortunately their parents could afford a good defence and they were acquitted.It cost their parents their marriage,their house,their business and their health.
Had they been poor and black and living in a jurisdiction with the death penalty it would have been a different story.
The plea bargaining process in the us has caused innocent people to plead guilty to lesser charges simply to avoid the death penalty.
4. Two friends were at a party when they had a fight about a girl.They were in the kitchen.One picked up a kitchen knife and threatened the other who took the knife from him and stabbed him.He was charged with murder,convicted and served 8 years.Eventually he was released after appealing the case on the grounds of self defence.He was poor and black.Had he lived in a jurisdiction with the death penalty he would have been executed.
It isn't just the moral issue of the state killing people.How many people would have pleaded guilty to a manslaughter charge,of which they were innocent,just to escape the risk of being executed?
 
There IS as reason why people who are sentenced to death are placed on death row for years. It is to give a sense of justice being done. People want to see others rot in jail first before being executed.

If a person murders another and is then murdered himself by the state in a prompt manner it will be just like a killing spree. There has to be a pause because to some people death is not a punishment. If you are Christian its seen as the beginning, not the end.

I find it very strange that in a predominantly Christian country, most people condone the taking of a life despite the fact that the Bible forbids it.
 
stevebaby said:
The last time I looked,more than 70 people had been freed from death row by DNA evidence and there are probably more by now.They all received fair trials of course.Noone will ever know how many innocent people have been executed for crimes they could not have committed.That alone should be enough reason to abolish the death penalty.
I have known four people who were charged with murder.
1.Bob's 2 year old child was left alone in a bathtub with 6ins of water in it,for about 20 mins.The child managed to turn the tap on,fill the bath to a higher level and she subsequently drowned.When questioned by the police (an hour after the child had died) he reacted angrily and told the police to f... off. That and the fact that he had long hair were enough for the investigating officers to decide that a 2 year old child did not have the strength to turn on the tap and he was charged with murder.He spent 18 months in prison on remand before he was acquitted.It was a very hard 18 months because of the offence he was charged with.Fortunately his parents could afford a decent defence.Had he been poor and black it would probably been a different story.
While there was no death penalty involved there may as well have been. He committed suicide a few years later.
2. Three brothers were water-skiing when one of them fell and the other 2 turned the boat around to pick him up.Unfortunately they ran over him and killed him and despite the lack of motive they were charged with his murder.They also were acquitted.Fortunately their parents could afford a good defence and they were acquitted.It cost their parents their marriage,their house,their business and their health.
Had they been poor and black and living in a jurisdiction with the death penalty it would have been a different story.
The plea bargaining process in the us has caused innocent people to plead guilty to lesser charges simply to avoid the death penalty.
4. Two friends were at a party when they had a fight about a girl.They were in the kitchen.One picked up a kitchen knife and threatened the other who took the knife from him and stabbed him.He was charged with murder,convicted and served 8 years.Eventually he was released after appealing the case on the grounds of self defence.He was poor and black.Had he lived in a jurisdiction with the death penalty he would have been executed.
It isn't just the moral issue of the state killing people.How many people would have pleaded guilty to a manslaughter charge,of which they were innocent,just to escape the risk of being executed?
Can you tell us where and when these stories of yours occurred?
 
MountainPro said:
There IS as reason why people who are sentenced to death are placed on death row for years. It is to give a sense of justice being done. People want to see others rot in jail first before being executed.

If a person murders another and is then murdered himself by the state in a prompt manner it will be just like a killing spree. There has to be a pause because to some people death is not a punishment. If you are Christian its seen as the beginning, not the end.

I find it very strange that in a predominantly Christian country, most people condone the taking of a life despite the fact that the Bible forbids it.

I'm sure there are cases of innocent people being executed, there are also hundreds of cases of people being let loose and killing again.
The pause before the sentence is carried out is to allow the convicted to go through the appeals process.
Christians believe in Heaven and Hell. Dying after leading a good life leads you to Heaven. Dying after you start a vicious robbing, raping, murdering drug gang will lead you to Hell.
And the Bible never forbad killing, in fact the Bible is full of killing.
The Bible forbad murder. The Commandment is actually; "Thou Shall Not Murder."

My bottom line is that I'll be against the death penalty when prison is made to be hell. No TV, no weight rooms, etc. Live 23 hours a day in a small cell with very limited human contact.
Prisons will stay filled as long as its not a deterrent to return. If you give prisoners everything they want, they won't want to leave or won't mind getting sent back.
 
Chance3290 said:
I'm sure there are cases of innocent people being executed, there are also hundreds of cases of people being let loose and killing again.
The pause before the sentence is carried out is to allow the convicted to go through the appeals process.
Christians believe in Heaven and Hell. Dying after leading a good life leads you to Heaven. Dying after you start a vicious robbing, raping, murdering drug gang will lead you to Hell.
And the Bible never forbad killing, in fact the Bible is full of killing.
The Bible forbad murder. The Commandment is actually; "Thou Shall Not Murder."

My bottom line is that I'll be against the death penalty when prison is made to be hell. No TV, no weight rooms, etc. Live 23 hours a day in a small cell with very limited human contact.
Prisons will stay filled as long as its not a deterrent to return. If you give prisoners everything they want, they won't want to leave or won't mind getting sent back.
"No TV,no weight rooms,etc." Is that hell,or guantanamo bay?"23 hours a day in a small cell with very limited human contact". Definitely gitmo.
:D
And that's before they have been tried. :(