Tookie Williams & the death penalty



stevebaby said:
Not in the us.Between10 and 25 years ago.Is it relevant?
Yes, since your stories didn't occur in the US, then the US laws would be applicable.
In what country are you charged with murder because you have long hair?
And in your # four story, if someone comes after you with a knife and you take away the knife, you also take away your reason to use deadly force in self-defense.
You said he proved self-defense eight years later, and if he lived with the death penalty, he would have been executed. tookie lived on death row for about 20 years before he was executed.
Of course, these legal opinions are only applicable in the US, apparently not in the land of your stories.
 
I do not believe in the death penalty because of the defective justice system that we have in this country. I read somewhere that in the US about 10% of the "deaths" in the death penalty system are innocent... And it is wrong to punish one innocent to satisfy societys need for vengence. We do need to use DNA and we also need to question the motive behind prosecuting attorneys.... The system is set up to produce results and profits for the few.
And the liberals on this forum need to examine where the resistence to the death penalty is coming from. It is not the Democratic party. Matter of fact , the Democratic held counties are the ones filling the penal institutions..... It provides jobs. Look at the states where the Democrats have tried to privatize the penal system.....
People have a misconception about the death penalty and the states govenors right to provide clemency. I think it is the state penal board that recommends clemancy to the govenor. I do not think the govenor has the right to step in.

Tookie Williams really offered nothing back to society. His book was "nominated" by "one" individual who was not even knowledgable about who and what Tookie stood for. So , lets see it for what it was. There was strong eveidence that he still had ties to the Crips. The fact he was allowed to live while in prison is proof enough. And at his funeral I believe the Crips had a presence. They do that only for members in good standing.
Jesse Jackson???? That speaks for itself

And a comment on roadhog's experience on the German take on the Tookie situation .......Germans are Germans. Their history shows what the Germans are. There is a very good reason they were called "barbarians" in the past. I come from strong German background and so I have a feel for their thoughts and emotions. There are many who feel Germany is headed for a economic failure..... I don't know. But watch Germany if this happens, and see if the word "barbarian' comes up again.

 
DiabloScott said:
Justifiable homocide would include self-defense or defense of another person.
I know people are considered not guilty of killing in self defense.

Tookie Williams was executed in self defense to protect our society.
How society is guilty of protecting itself?
 
Chance3290 said:
Yes, since your stories didn't occur in the US, then the US laws would be applicable.
In what country are you charged with murder because you have long hair?
And in your # four story, if someone comes after you with a knife and you take away the knife, you also take away your reason to use deadly force in self-defense.
You said he proved self-defense eight years later, and if he lived with the death penalty, he would have been executed. tookie lived on death row for about 20 years before he was executed.
Of course, these legal opinions are only applicable in the US, apparently not in the land of your stories.
The us is a common law jurisdiction.The "common law" is just that - it is common to the us,england,canada,trinidad,new zealand,australia,india,ceylon and other countries.Judges in all these countries accept arguments based on precedent established in other common law jurisdictions.The best known example is "habeas corpus" which was established in england but applies to all the above jurisdictions.
Bob was charged with murder because the police officer investigating took a dislike to him based on his appearance and attitude.Black people in the us (and other countries) are more likely to be charged with an offence if the police officer is white.It is not unusual for police officers to charge someone with an offence,knowing them to be innocent,just to cause inconvenience to them and get revenge for something like an insult.This is why lawyers advise clients to be polite to the police,even though there is no legal requirement to do so.Police everywhere have common values and attitudes and are usually unsympathetic to those who do not share those values.
If,having disarmed an attacker,someone has reasonable cause to believe that a further attack is imminent,then that person is entitled to use deadly force to defend themselves.In this case,the person charged was being slammed headfirst into a cupboard and other knives were lying nearby.The legal argument was about the likelihood of death resulting from the continued attack.A few years ago a detective discovered that 2 of his child relatives were being abused .the alleged offender was arrested,charged and bailed.the detective went to the alleged offender's house and shot him dead.He was subsequently acquitted on the grounds of self defence.
The death penalty was abolished 8 years before this happened.The procedure then was for any appeal to be heard within weeks of the verdict and if unsuccessful,the death sentence was carried out immediately.A number have been posthumously pardoned since then,which is not much consolation.Had the death penalty been in place then my acquaintance would have been executed and would have been able to get a retrial,a process which took 8 years of determined lobbying by a lawyer acting pro bono.
Without having any particular sympathy for williams he very obviously received 2 sentences for his crimes,the first being the 20 years on death row and the second being the actual execution.
 
Chance3290 said:
Yes, since your stories didn't occur in the US, then the US laws would be applicable.
In what country are you charged with murder because you have long hair?
And in your # four story, if someone comes after you with a knife and you take away the knife, you also take away your reason to use deadly force in self-defense.
You said he proved self-defense eight years later, and if he lived with the death penalty, he would have been executed. tookie lived on death row for about 20 years before he was executed.
Of course, these legal opinions are only applicable in the US, apparently not in the land of your stories.
BTW,you have not offered a "legal" opinion.You have offered a personal opinion.Any lawyer can tell you that they are 2 very different things.
:rolleyes:
 
Chance3290 said:
I'm sure there are cases of innocent people being executed, there are also hundreds of cases of people being let loose and killing again.
The pause before the sentence is carried out is to allow the convicted to go through the appeals process.
Christians believe in Heaven and Hell. Dying after leading a good life leads you to Heaven. Dying after you start a vicious robbing, raping, murdering drug gang will lead you to Hell.
And the Bible never forbad killing, in fact the Bible is full of killing.
The Bible forbad murder. The Commandment is actually; "Thou Shall Not Murder."

My bottom line is that I'll be against the death penalty when prison is made to be hell. No TV, no weight rooms, etc. Live 23 hours a day in a small cell with very limited human contact.
Prisons will stay filled as long as its not a deterrent to return. If you give prisoners everything they want, they won't want to leave or won't mind getting sent back.
Better for a hundred felons to go free,than one innocent person be convicted.
That's the basis of your legal system.
If tookie is bound for hell,then he will be punished 3 times,by imprisonment,execution and eternal damnation,if you believe in that sort of superstition.
 
well i am not so sure about that...

when is murder justified? when it is handed out as punishment my the state?

this will be the same state that puts elderly people in prison for committing mercy killings of terminally sick spouses.

With respect to the Bible:

Its always been 'Thou Shall Not Kill'

only God has the right to take anothers life....dress it up all you want, killing people isnt going to get you into heaven..

Chance3290 said:
And the Bible never forbad killing, in fact the Bible is full of killing.
The Bible forbad murder. The Commandment is actually; "Thou Shall Not Murder."
.
 
MountainPro said:
well i am not so sure about that...

when is murder justified? when it is handed out as punishment my the state?

this will be the same state that puts elderly people in prison for committing mercy killings of terminally sick spouses.

With respect to the Bible:

Its always been 'Thou Shall Not Kill'

only God has the right to take anothers life....dress it up all you want, killing people isnt going to get you into heaven..

I will stand corrected,but if I remember correctly the pure translation states " Thou shalt not murder".
Of course, the term murder,is still open to interpretation.

My opinion, ending this thread would be a mercy killing.
 
MountainPro said:
when is murder justified? when it is handed out as punishment my the state?

With respect to the Bible:

Its always been 'Thou Shall Not Kill'

only God has the right to take anothers life....dress it up all you want, killing people isnt going to get you into heaven..
If you check any dictionary you will find the definition of murder as being the unlawful killing of one human being by another human being.
In California, it is legal to kill a person who has been legally sentenced to death.
It is not murder.
 
stevebaby said:
Bob was charged with murder because the police officer investigating took a dislike to him based on his appearance and attitude.Black people in the us (and other countries) are more likely to be charged with an offence if the police officer is white.It is not unusual for police officers to charge someone with an offence,knowing them to be innocent,just to cause inconvenience to them and get revenge for something like an insult.
Again, in what land do you live where this happens all the time? "Hey, Bob, you're under arrest for murder. I have no other evidence to offer except you long hair."

Yes, the majority of police in the US and most other countries, are white. The majority of people arrested in the US are black. That's because the majority of the people who commit crimes in the US are black. If anyone doubts this, I will again renew my offer to meet with me and I'll take you around and show you the real world, not what you read in your papers. This is based on social needs, lack of employment, lack of ambition, lack of conflict resolution skills, etc,

In every jurisdiction that I know, a police officer must have reasonable articuable suspicion to stop someone. They must have probable cause to make an arrest.
 
Chance3290 said:
Again, in what land do you live where this happens all the time? "Hey, Bob, you're under arrest for murder. I have no other evidence to offer except you long hair."

Yes, the majority of police in the US and most other countries, are white. The majority of people arrested in the US are black. That's because the majority of the people who commit crimes in the US are black. If anyone doubts this, I will again renew my offer to meet with me and I'll take you around and show you the real world, not what you read in your papers. This is based on social needs, lack of employment, lack of ambition, lack of conflict resolution skills, etc,

In every jurisdiction that I know, a police officer must have reasonable articuable suspicion to stop someone. They must have probable cause to make an arrest.


You left out one aspect. Law officers do not convict individuals, jurors and judges do and many that should go to jail, do not.
It is not the system that is flawed,it is the people involved in the system and I imagine it will never change.
 
i wasnt using the webster definition of murder or any dictionarys definition for that matter...

since circa 560 AD it has been taught 'thou shall not kill' in this country....

i can't speak for the kentucky new evanglical chrstian society bible 195th edition.

only God has the power to take and give life....you live in a Christian country right? your man is Christian right?




Chance3290 said:
If you check any dictionary you will find the definition of murder as being the unlawful killing of one human being by another human being.
In California, it is legal to kill a person who has been legally sentenced to death.
It is not murder.
 
stevebaby said:
If,having disarmed an attacker,someone has reasonable cause to believe that a further attack is imminent,then that person is entitled to use deadly force to defend themselves.In this case,the person charged was being slammed headfirst into a cupboard and other knives were lying nearby.The legal argument was about the likelihood of death resulting from the continued attack.

A few years ago a detective discovered that 2 of his child relatives were being abused .the alleged offender was arrested,charged and bailed.the detective went to the alleged offender's house and shot him dead.He was subsequently acquitted on the grounds of self defence.
Now you're obviously adding things to your story to make sound better. What's next "after the guy took the knife away, three others guys jumped him." ****.

Please tell me where this happened? I go, uninvited, into your house and kill you, and I'm acquitted on the grounds of self defense. Was this a straw house and did I get to you by huffing and puffing?

BTW has anybody ever told you that your ass looks alot like fixey's? Or so I heard.

Jhuskey, I think you're right. I think now we're getting into the "My cousin knows a guy, who heard about..." territory.
 
MountainPro said:
since circa 560 AD it has been taught 'thou shall not kill' in this country....

i can't speak for the kentucky new evanglical chrstian society bible 195th edition.
tookie was not killed in Scotland. Had he been, it would have been murder. He was executed in California where, again, it is legal to kill someone sentenced to death.

And I won't get into the whole 'thou shall not kill' issue where it involves those in the British Isles. Seems that since 560AD more than a little blood has been splilt in the name of your Christianity.
 
Chance3290 said:
tookie was not killed in Scotland. Had he been, it would have been murder. He was executed in California where, again, it is legal to kill someone sentenced to death.

And I won't get into the whole 'thou shall not kill' issue where it involves those in the British Isles. Seems that since 560AD more than a little blood has been splilt in the name of your Christianity.

Please let me stir the kettle a bit more.
"Thou shalt not kill"....... What or who? I am killing time as I type.
Unless someome find some direct text relavant and related to the time of the original Ten Commandnents I will only consider it a personal opinion as to what or who.
 
jhuskey said:
Please let me stir the kettle a bit more.
"Thou shalt not kill"....... What or who? I am killing time as I type.
Unless someome find some direct text relavant and related to the time of the original Ten Commandnents I will only consider it a personal opinion as to what or who.
kettle stirring can be fun, especially when you've sitting at work with little ambition to get it your work done.
 
jhuskey said:
Please let me stir the kettle a bit more.
"Thou shalt not kill"....... What or who? I am killing time as I type.
Unless someome find some direct text relavant and related to the time of the original Ten Commandnents I will only consider it a personal opinion as to what or who.
Carrera? DB?

this is where you guys take over...we've set up a cracking argument for you...

i personally cant be arsed.

if tookie was convicted in Scotland, he wouldnt be dead, you're right...but he would have to spend is remaing days as big Tam's *****. ..he was lucky to be caught in Calif..
 
Chance3290 said:
kettle stirring can be fun, especially when you've sitting at work with little ambition to get it your work done.
you bored too?..

damn, when is home time?

just another 3 hours....hmmpph.
 
MountainPro said:
Carrera? DB?

this is where you guys take over...we've set up a cracking argument for you...

i personally cant be arsed.

if tookie was convicted in Scotland, he wouldnt be dead, you're right...but he would have to spend is remaing days as big Tam's *****. ..he was lucky to be caught in Calif..


That's the problem Pro,I am not wise enough to know the answers, just the questions.
I am hoping we have an intelligent well informed panel here to enlighten us. As far as being bored I was avoiding writing a letter to OSHA,our friendly governmental safety organization.
It is an exciting thing to write these documents but I have it completed so......can I go home now.

If Tookie had been convicted in Scotland would he have been required to eat Haggis as punishment? :D
 
MountainPro said:
Carrera? DB?

this is where you guys take over...we've set up a cracking argument for you...

i personally cant be arsed.

if tookie was convicted in Scotland, he wouldnt be dead, you're right...but he would have to spend is remaing days as big Tam's *****. ..he was lucky to be caught in Calif..
This goes back you my original point (or, at least, one of my points). If prisons were made to be hell, then get rid of the death penalty. But being sentenced to life in a place where you can watch TV, life weights, make phone calls, get three squares, a warm bed, doctor, dentist... That life is a much better life than many people on death row came from.