Topo Software is Cool!

[Bestest Handsan]

I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This
thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check
the profile. The interface isn't the best, but it's been fun
finding all the grades and elevation gains of all my
favorite rides.

Is there a program out there that does the same thing with a
more powerful and user friendly interface?

 

[Ken]

"Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This
> thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check
> the profile. The interface isn't the best, but it's been
> fun finding all the grades and elevation gains of all my
> favorite rides.

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to
be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't
too bad, but the road vectors in their database do not
follow the real world roads very closely.

 

[Chris Zacho "Th]

I've used DeLorme for three years now, and I love it too. It
not only does what you stated, but it also prints out a rout
including mileage. Both between turns and total. I find it a
simple matter to copy paste this info into my route slips
for club rides.

Did you know that you can also download the latitude and
longitude points from your GPS unit (if it records them)
into Topo and it will create a trail route based on them? I
think this is great for Mountain bikers!

- -

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

 

[Bestest Handsan]

"Ken" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in news:5O-
> [email protected]:
> > I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks.
> > This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and
> > then check the profile. The interface isn't the best,
> > but it's been fun finding all the grades and elevation
> > gains of all my favorite rides.
>
> I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program
> to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points
> aren't too bad, but the road vectors in their database do
> not follow the real world roads very closely.

"Phfffffffffff" <----- sound of my balloon popping

 

[Bob]

> I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program
> to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points
> aren't too bad, but the road vectors in their database do
> not follow the real world roads very closely.

I would agree. I've found National Geographic's TOPO! to be
much more accurate. I have not gotten used to DeLorme's user
interface yet. It seems counter-intuitive.

For all of the data that it crunches, it is a fairly
impressive package, however.

-Bob F.

 

[Roger Zoul]

Ken wrote:
:: "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in news:5O-
:: [email protected]:
::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks.
::: This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and
::: then check the profile. The interface isn't the best,
::: but it's been fun finding all the grades and elevation
::: gains of all my favorite rides.
::
:: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program
:: to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points
:: aren't too bad, but the road vectors in their database do
:: not follow the real world roads very closely.

Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
actually measured "road vectors" while following a map from
it's database?

 

[Psycholist]

"Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ken wrote:
> :: "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in news:5O-
> :: [email protected]:
> ::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks.
> ::: This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and
> ::: then check the profile. The interface isn't the best,
> ::: but it's been fun finding all the grades and elevation
> ::: gains of all my favorite rides.
> ::
> :: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the
> :: program to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at
> :: particular points aren't too bad, but the road vectors
> :: in their database do not follow the real world roads
> :: very closely.
>
> Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
> actually measured
"road
> vectors" while following a map from it's database?
>

Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last
section of the Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all the
pros rode a week or so ago. According to Topo 5.0, it has
stretches of 47% grade. I don't think so.

I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know well.
It seems to be pretty good at giving an average gradient for
a climb. But some of the individual slopes along the route
it does exaggerate quite wildly.

Bob C.

 

[Psycholist]

"Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This
> thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check
> the profile. The interface isn't the best, but it's been
> fun finding all the grades and elevation
gains
> of all my favorite rides.
>
> Is there a program out there that does the same thing with
> a more powerful and user friendly interface?
>

Question for Topo users. If I have a route that crosses over
itself ... say a large figure 8 ... how do I make it do
that? As soon as you tell it to calculate, it looks for the
quickest or shortest way and eliminates the loop or alters
it ... every single time. I can't make it do any course
where the course crosses over itself.

Any advice (besides, "don't do routes that cross over
themselves")?

Bob C.

 

[Ken]

"Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
> actually measured "road vectors" while following a map
> from it's database?

I've used DeLorme Topo USA 4.0 to profile certain hills that
I ride regularly. Because the vectors do not follow the
actual road, they invent many phantom descents that I know
do not exist because the road is entirely uphill. Sometimes
the cumulative elevation gain reported by the program is
literally double the real elevation gain. Road grades are
similar bogus for short distances.

 

[Ken]

"psycholist" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Question for Topo users. If I have a route that crosses
> over itself ... say a large figure 8 ... how do I make it
> do that? As soon as you tell it to calculate, it looks for
> the quickest or shortest way and eliminates the loop or
> alters it ... every single time. I can't make it do any
> course where the course crosses over itself.

You can put "vias" or "stops" along specific roads you want
in the route. That prevents the program from chosing the
wrong roads, or in my area, roads that simply do not exist.
Some of them might have existed 30 years ago, but there are
many roads in the DeLorme database that I cannot find on any
paper map or even when visiting the area myself.

 

[Roger Zoul]

Ken wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in
:: news:[email protected]:
::: Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
::: actually measured "road vectors" while following a map
::: from it's database?
::
:: I've used DeLorme Topo USA 4.0 to profile certain hills
:: that I ride regularly. Because the vectors do not follow
:: the actual road, they invent many phantom descents that I
:: know do not exist because the road is entirely uphill.
:: Sometimes the cumulative elevation gain reported by the
:: program is literally double the real elevation gain. Road
:: grades are similar bogus for short distances.

Thanks....

 

[Roger Zoul]

psycholist wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:: news:[email protected]...
::: Ken wrote:
::::: "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in news:5O-
::::: [email protected]:
:::::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks.
:::::: This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and
:::::: then check the profile. The interface isn't the best,
:::::: but it's been fun finding all the grades and
:::::: elevation gains of all my favorite rides.
:::::
::::: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the
::::: program to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at
::::: particular points aren't too bad, but the road vectors
::::: in their database do not follow the real world roads
::::: very closely.
:::
::: Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
::: actually measured "road vectors" while following a map
::: from it's database?
:::
::
:: Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last
:: section of the Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all
:: the pros rode a week or so ago. According to Topo 5.0, it
:: has stretches of 47% grade. I don't think so.
::
:: I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know
:: well. It seems to be pretty good at giving an average
:: gradient for a climb. But some of the individual slopes
:: along the route it does exaggerate quite wildly.

Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for
their database?

 

[Terry Morse]

Bestest Handsander wrote:

> "Ken" wrote:
> > I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program
> > to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points
> > aren't too bad, but the road vectors in their database
> > do not follow the real world roads very closely.
>
> "Phfffffffffff" <----- sound of my balloon popping

It's not that bad. I've used TopoUSA 4.0 extensively to map
out big rides, then I ride the route to verify it. The
mileage is quite accurate, but the accumulated vertical
reads high by about 30%. That's easy to adjust for.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

 

[Pete Salomone]

When you look closely at a Topo road you can see it is made
up of straight line segments. If you are familiar with the
road you know it curves. Line segments are not always good
approximations for curves, so you have inaccuracies. This
kind of inaccuracy is largest on winding mountainous roads.
Topo just isn't made to give us hill climbers the detailed
data we would like.

Using stragiht line segment approximations enables Topo to
get its database on 5
CDs. Doubling the accuracy requires 25 CDs because lines
are one dimensional but areas (maps) are two
dimensional.

psycholist wrote:

> "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Ken wrote:
> > :: "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in news:5O-
> > :: [email protected]:
> > ::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7
> > ::: bucks. This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in
> > ::: 3d, and then check the profile. The interface isn't
> > ::: the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades
> > ::: and elevation gains of all my favorite rides.
> > ::
> > :: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the
> > :: program to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at
> > :: particular points aren't too bad, but the road
> > :: vectors in their database do not follow the real
> > :: world roads very closely.
> >
> > Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
> > actually measured
> "road
> > vectors" while following a map from it's database?
> >
>
> Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last
> section of the Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all
> the pros rode a week or so ago. According to Topo 5.0, it
> has stretches of 47% grade. I don't think so.
>
> I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know well.
> It seems to be pretty good at giving an average gradient
> for a climb. But some of the individual slopes along the
> route it does exaggerate quite wildly.
>
> Bob C.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> psycholist wrote:
>>> "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Ken wrote:
>>>>>> "Bestest Handsander" <[email protected]> wrote in news:5O-
>>>>>> [email protected]:
>>>>>>> I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7
>>>>>>> bucks. This thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in
>>>>>>> 3d, and then check the profile. The interface isn't
>>>>>>> the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades
>>>>>>> and elevation gains of all my favorite rides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've found the grades and elevation gains in the
>>>>>> program to be wildly inaccurate. Elevations at
>>>>>> particular points aren't too bad, but the road
>>>>>> vectors in their database do not follow the real
>>>>>> world roads very closely.
>>>>
>>>> Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you
>>>> actually measured "road vectors" while following a map
>>>> from it's database?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the
>>> last section of the Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and
>>> all the pros rode a week or so ago. According to Topo
>>> 5.0, it has stretches of 47% grade. I don't think so.
>>>
>>> I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know
>>> well. It seems to be pretty good at giving an average
>>> gradient for a climb. But some of the individual slopes
>>> along the route it does exaggerate quite wildly.
>
> Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for
> their database?

I always assumed the government had pretty accurate topo
info for roads, and that it was in the GIS database(s). All
companies like DeLorme would have to do is pull it out. If
it's not in the GIS systems, I can't imagine there's not a
three dimensional plot *somewhere* by now. So this is
interesting indeed.

Matt O.

 

[Chris Neary]

>> Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for
>> their database?
>
>I always assumed the government had pretty accurate topo
>info for roads, and that it was in the GIS database(s). All
>companies like DeLorme would have to do is pull it out. If
>it's not in the GIS systems, I can't imagine there's not a
>three dimensional plot *somewhere* by now.

Close.

My understanding is the USGS provides publically available
elevation data, but it is not tied to roads, but instead is
provided as grid with each node being the data point.

Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the
road to the adjacent grid nodes to estimate the elevation
of the road.

This approach works less well as the terrain steepens.

Chris Neary [email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you
ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I loved" -
Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Roger Zoul]

Chris Neary wrote:
:::: Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data
:::: for their database?
:::
::: I always assumed the government had pretty accurate topo
::: info for roads, and that it was in the GIS database(s).
::: All companies like DeLorme would have to do is pull it
::: out. If it's not in the GIS systems, I can't imagine
::: there's not a three dimensional plot *somewhere* by now.
::
:: Close.
::
:: My understanding is the USGS provides publically
:: available elevation data, but it is not tied to roads,
:: but instead is provided as grid with each node being the
:: data point.
::
:: Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the
:: road to the adjacent grid nodes to estimate the elevation
:: of the road.
::
:: This approach works less well as the terrain steepens.

Ah....given that info, it might be reasonable to say that
the topo software does a decent enough job given the task
at hand...

 

[Ken]

Chris Neary <[email protected] > wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the road
> to the adjacent grid nodes to estimate the elevation of
> the road.

The problem with DeLorme Topo USA 4.0 is that their road
data does not closely follow the actual road path. They may
not pick the "nearest" grid node to the actual road, but
instead pick on several nodes away.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Chris Neary wrote:

> My understanding is the USGS provides publically available
> elevation data, but it is not tied to roads, but instead
> is provided as grid with each node being the data point.
>
> Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the road
> to the adjacent grid nodes to estimate the elevation of
> the road.
>
> This approach works less well as the terrain steepens.

This makes sense. However, I'm surprised they're still
interpolating anything,
w/ three dimensional plots of the actual roads perhaps being
available in GIS databases.

Matt O.

 

[Warren Block]

Matt O'Toole <[email protected]> wrote:

> This makes sense. However, I'm surprised they're still
> interpolating anything,
> w/ three dimensional plots of the actual roads perhaps
> being available in GIS databases.

There's a version of Topo available for use with the
Computrainer (http://www.computrainer.com), and the problem
is well known. Topo has the topo data, and the routes of the
roads, but roads often don't follow the terrain. Cuts are
made through hills, bridges over valleys, and that adds up.
The Computrainer version of Topo has a "bridging" feature
that lets you correct this manually. I've tested this on
local rides, and there are some notable up-and-downs on
routes that I know are not that way in real life.

If there's true topo data for the roads themselves, it's
not in Topo. It would probably increase the database
size (possibly a lot), without increasing sales of the
program much.

--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA