topolino wheels

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Lanny R. Levens, Mar 5, 2003.

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  1. I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com

    and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has been with them. I'm riding
    Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about 12000 miles and still true as the day I got them).
    Would these wheels be good for everyday riding? I have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they are tubular
    and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are worth the cost/bother of tubulars.

    Lanny
     
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  2. Bikegeek

    Bikegeek Guest

    I've been on a set since last June. I love 'em. Summer crits, traininf rides, dirt road rides in the
    fall with the CX bike, one CX race and CX practice, winter sloppy rides and a rainy really wet race
    one Sunday ago and they're still rockin. The "factory" is 20 minutes away so I've been there
    numerous times to have them look at the wheels. They have yet to go out of round, they accelerate
    quickly and they are very stable. I find I'm faster on the downhills because they really track well.

    Just my $0.02.

    Ray

    "Lanny R. Levenson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com
    >
    > and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has been with them. I'm riding
    > Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about
    12000
    > miles and still true as the day I got them). Would these wheels be good for everyday riding? I
    > have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they are tubular and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are
    > worth the cost/bother of tubulars.
    >
    > Lanny
     
  3. Richard Ney

    Richard Ney Guest

    BikeGeek top-posted:

    > I've been on a set since last June. I love 'em. Summer crits, traininf rides, dirt road rides in
    > the fall with the CX bike, one CX race and CX practice, winter sloppy rides and a rainy really
    > wet race one Sunday ago and they're still rockin. The "factory" is 20 minutes away so I've been
    > there numerous times to have them look at the wheels. They have yet to go out of round, they
    > accelerate quickly and they are very stable. I find I'm faster on the downhills because they
    > really track well.

    Your description of these wheels is really interesting. Could you explain a bit more about the
    stability, acceleration, and tracking benefits of these wheels?

    >> I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com
    >>
    >> and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has been with them. I'm riding
    >> Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about 12000 miles and still true as the day I got them).
    >> Would these wheels be good for everyday riding? I have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they are
    >> tubular and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are worth the cost/bother of tubulars.
     
  4. Harris

    Harris Guest

    Lanny R. Levenson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com

    > and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has been with them. I'm riding
    > Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about 12000 miles and still true as the day I got them).
    > Would these wheels be good for everyday riding? I have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they are
    > tubular and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are worth the cost/bother of tubulars.

    What do you imagine these wheels will do for you that your Open Pro/Campy wheels won't? Interesting
    that they claim the carbon fibers provide greater stiffness as well as significantly "dampening"
    road vibration.

    Art Harris
     
  5. Bikegeek

    Bikegeek Guest

    I don't know if they'd be faster than the Mavic/Campy setup, but you'd have alot more carbon
    fiber...........:).

    > What do you imagine these wheels will do for you that your Open Pro/Campy wheels won't?
    > Interesting that they claim the carbon fibers provide greater stiffness as well as significantly
    > "dampening" road vibration.
    >
    > Art Harris
     
  6. Bikegeek

    Bikegeek Guest

    <Your description of these wheels is really interesting. Could you explain a bit more about the
    stability, acceleration, and tracking benefits of these wheels?>

    Sure.

    Stability - the wheels feel as if they "carve". I find I am faster than my spoked (Ultegra, 32 hole,
    Velocity Aerohead(t)? rims) on downhills (that might also be tracking....). The wheels are (I'm no
    engineer) vertically compliant (they "give" a bit - seems to me) and are stiff laterally. They do
    take some shock off my CAAD6 Cannondale and they are great on my cross bike as well.

    Acceleration - while I suck on the hills, I could probably spin a car tire up to speed quickly....so
    I can't make a reasonable observation here. I did find that in crits I was able to jump a bit faster
    to close gaps and for sprints. That may be more mental than less weight........

    The wheels are light and tough, 2 things not usually found together in wheels. The light weight is
    through the carbon hubs and kevlar spokes, not a really low number of spokes and silly, (around here
    anyway), radial lacing patterns.
     
  7. Dion Dock

    Dion Dock Guest

    Why do you keep having the factory look at these wheels if there is nothing wrong with them?

    -Dion

    "BikeGeek" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I've been on a set since last June. I love 'em. Summer crits, traininf rides, dirt road rides in
    > the fall with the CX bike, one CX race and CX practice, winter sloppy rides and a rainy really wet
    > race one Sunday ago
    and
    > they're still rockin. The "factory" is 20 minutes away so I've been there numerous times to have
    > them look at the wheels. They have yet to go out
    of
    > round, they accelerate quickly and they are very stable. I find I'm
    faster
    > on the downhills because they really track well.
     
  8. Ronald

    Ronald Guest

    > I don't know if they'd be faster than the Mavic/Campy setup, but you'd have alot more carbon
    > fiber...........:).

    If you get a disc you can have a lot more carbon and they would be faster too.

    "BikeGeek" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I don't know if they'd be faster than the Mavic/Campy setup, but you'd have alot more carbon
    > fiber...........:).
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > What do you imagine these wheels will do for you that your Open Pro/Campy wheels won't?
    > > Interesting that they claim the carbon fibers provide greater stiffness as well as significantly
    > > "dampening" road vibration.
    > >
    > > Art Harris
     
  9. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Topolino? Italian for Mickey Mouse. The FIAT Topolino 1936-1955, got its name from the rodent
    of cartoons.

    http://coa.duckburg.dk/coa/c1/character.php/5/MM http://www.disney.it/Publishing/topolino/
    http://www.topolino.org.uk/

    When I see spokes made of "Carbon Fiber for Stiffness... and Kevlar for Toughness" I wonder whose
    leg they are pulling. These two materials have distinctly different elastic properties, making them
    somewhat like spokes of aluminum and steel sandwiches. The aluminum would not contribute either
    stiffness nor toughness because the "stiff" steel would bear all the load before the aluminum was
    even mildly stressed.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  10. Bikegeek

    Bikegeek Guest

    Because they were new and they wanted feedback since there were only 2 pair that were on the road.

    "Dion Dock" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Why do you keep having the factory look at these wheels if there is
    nothing
    > wrong with them?
    >
    > -Dion
     
  11. Bikegeek

    Bikegeek Guest

    But it would be lighter since you didn't need all that heavy steel, no?

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Topolino? Italian for Mickey Mouse. The FIAT Topolino 1936-1955, got its name from the rodent of
    > cartoons.
    >
    > http://coa.duckburg.dk/coa/c1/character.php/5/MM http://www.disney.it/Publishing/topolino/
    > http://www.topolino.org.uk/
    >
    > When I see spokes made of "Carbon Fiber for Stiffness... and Kevlar for Toughness" I wonder whose
    > leg they are pulling. These two materials have distinctly different elastic properties, making
    > them somewhat like spokes of aluminum and steel sandwiches. The aluminum would not contribute
    > either stiffness nor toughness because the "stiff" steel would bear all the load before the
    > aluminum was even mildly stressed.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  12. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    Harris <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Lanny R. Levenson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com
    >
    > > and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has been with them. I'm riding
    > > Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about 12000 miles and still true as the day I got
    > > them). Would these wheels be good for everyday riding? I have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they
    > > are tubular and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are worth the cost/bother of tubulars.
    >
    > What do you imagine these wheels will do for you that your Open Pro/Campy wheels won't?
    > Interesting that they claim the carbon fibers provide greater stiffness as well as significantly
    > "dampening" road vibration.
    >
    Agree, a more durable wheelset is "worth" more than fancy, "lightweight" ones, especially if these
    are going to be your "everyday" wheels. With regard to the "myth" of lower rotational mass, read
    what Jobst Brandt says about that:

    Here's Jobst Brandt's take on rotating mass:

    >Also where the weight is carried is a major component..... and rotating weight can have twice the
    >effect of non-rotation parts.

    What makes the rotating parts have twice the effect? This claim has been repeated here so often by
    the "faithful" that it has become a mantra. I use the term "faithful" because it has become a tenet
    of bicycling faith by repetition. Only in acceleration does the peripheral mass of a wheel double
    inertia and only when first starting. Once at speed, it is merely a flywheel that does not retard
    forward motion even if speed is varying because it acts as a flywheel.

    Bicycle accelerations, contrary to perception, are so low as to be insignificant in thrust (F = M *
    a) where the accelerating force "F" is equal to the "M" mass time the "a" acceleration. Acceleration
    being on the order of 1/50G (0.02 as much as the pull of gravity) when changing speed in a hill
    climb. Thus a 1000gram wheel with all its mass in the tire would take 20gf to accelerate while a
    1200g wheel would have 24gf. 1g = 1/28.3 ounce. Of course, wheels don't have all their mass in the
    tread either so the result is far less, but then who cares, these claims make great conversation
    because they have that faint thread of credibility with which people believe unbelievable things.

    If you really want more "comfort", forget carbon spokes/rims, get WIDER tires like 700x25. Wider
    tires = more air volume = lower psi and thus, more comfort. Try riding 700x25 tires at 100-110psi,
    you'll like
    it. Plus, wider tires handle better....
     
  13. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "BikeGeek" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Stability - the wheels feel as if they "carve". I find I am faster than my spoked (Ultegra, 32
    >hole, Velocity Aerohead(t)? rims) on downhills (that might also be tracking....). The wheels are
    >(I'm no engineer) vertically compliant (they "give" a bit - seems to me) and are stiff laterally.
    >They do take some shock off my CAAD6 Cannondale and they are great on my cross bike as well.

    Next time you're out riding these wheels, try to convince yourself they told you that the wheels
    would be slower, less responsive and more laterally flexible and see if you can convince yourself
    you feel those properties as well. At least try to forget what you "know" about those wheels and be
    very subjective about the feedback you're really getting through the bars and the saddle.

    Experience teaches that differences that are "obvious" often disappear completely in a blind test.

    On "tracking" - remember that you shouldn't be putting any side load on the wheels unless you're
    a very oddball rider (cornering like a gran prix motorcycle racer trying to drag your inside
    knee). ;-)

    On "compliance" - remove the tire and see how much weight you have to pile on the bike to move the
    hub down a scant 1mm. Now put the tire back on and see how much deflection that same weight will
    compress the tire. Divide the first by the total of the two and you have the percentage of
    compliance the wheels contribute. Hint: don't expect a big number when you do the math.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  14. "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... <snip> On "tracking" - remember that you
    shouldn't be putting any side load
    > on the wheels unless you're a very oddball rider (cornering like a gran prix motorcycle racer
    > trying to drag your inside knee). ;-)

    Pardon my going off on a tangent here, but while I know it's true the side loads are small, I do
    have to wonder about the effect of wheels' lateral stiffness on "tracking" or stability. You can
    visibly move a rim laterally by pushing on it with one finger, so it really doesn't take much force
    at all to displace it. And you do get side loads, particularly on a front wheel which is always
    turning slightly out of the plane of motion as you make steering inputs/corrections. I know from my
    days of flirting with light wheels that a 28H-15/16-GEL280 front definitely moves around enough to
    hamper stability, particularly on a windy descent. A sudden gust of wind or a passing car at 40mph
    would give you religion. ;-) In that case, a switch to slightly heavier, but much stiffer Sun M19A's
    with 14/15's laced radially, heads-in on the front made a big difference in descending stability.
    Same bike with 32H clinchers was dead-solid at 55+.

    Not that that's an issue with most wheels. Certainly not with run-of-the-mill 32H clinchers which
    the poster was comparing the Topolinos to; most such wheels are well stiffer than any
    lightweight/low-spoke-count alternative. Not really buying the smoother-but-stiffer line here,
    either; the only arguments for that might be the ones Klein used to use for his boron-wrapped Stage
    frames way back when. Less unsprung weight and a bit of damping from the composite materials. Either
    of which would likely pale in comparison to the difference in ride between a 23mm and a 25mm tire.

    SB
     
  15. Michael

    Michael Guest

    I have a question. Why must someone who wants a set of "fancy" wheels try to justify their purchase
    through their technological advantages. Honestly I am not here to argue technological advantages
    with anyone. It is OK to desire a set of wheels because you like the look of carbon fiber or you
    want a set of kevlar spokes but do not try and tell anyone that these make you ride faster, handle
    better, or track straighter. That's the old, "My shoes are faster than your shoes" argument we all
    heard in kindergarten. It's not the shoes that make you fast people, its the legs. I personally have
    a set of Chris King hubbed Mavic Open Pros (Laced with black spokes to match the hubs and rims, for
    purely asthetic reasons) on one of my bikes and a set of Bontrager Race X-Lites that came on my
    other bike. Both are just fine wheels, and I get about equal performance out of either. The
    Bontrager's look cooler and I expect my others to last longer.

    What I am trying to say is if you want fancy wheels buy them for their looks and don't be ashamed of
    that. If you don't like silly low spoked wheels don't buy them and leave people alone who like them
    and their slightly more difficult service.

    What it is important to understand is the behavior that goes along with purchasing boutique wheels.
    People are not "tricked" into buying harder to service boutique wheels through marketing campaigns
    it is just that some people have a willingness to pay a premium price for fancy wheels. It is the
    same reason people buy cars like Jaguars with inferior reliability and higher service costs, purely
    asthetic and image reasons. The "best" is a relative term and needs to be defined based on the
    consumer and the product attrbutes they desire, i.e. what is best for one person may not be the best
    for another.

    Anyway, my two cents.

    Michael Bourne

    [email protected]

    "Lanny R. Levenson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com
    >
    > and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has been with them. I'm riding
    > Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about 12000 miles and still true as the day I got them).
    > Would these wheels be good for everyday riding? I have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they are
    > tubular and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are worth the cost/bother of tubulars.
    >
    > Lanny
     
  16. Michael, OK, I'm ashamed about considering the wheels in an attempt to keep up. Most likely, I
    wouldn't buy them (I'm riding Mavic Open Pro's) but the idea of less weight makes sense. I've
    handled some Zipp 303's in my LBS but they are tubular rims. That's why I was exploring the
    internet and saw the Topolino wheels. If I were to really buy into this, I'd get the lighter
    wheels, the Zipps.

    Lanny "Michael" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I have a question. Why must someone who wants a set of "fancy" wheels try to justify their
    > purchase through their technological advantages. Honestly I am not here to argue technological
    > advantages with anyone. It is OK to desire a set of wheels because you like the look of carbon
    > fiber or you want a set of kevlar spokes but do not try and tell anyone that these make you ride
    > faster, handle better, or track straighter. That's the old, "My shoes are faster than your shoes"
    > argument we all heard in kindergarten. It's not the shoes that make you fast people, its the legs.
    > I personally have a set of Chris King hubbed Mavic Open Pros (Laced with black spokes to match the
    > hubs and rims, for purely asthetic reasons) on one of my bikes and a set of Bontrager Race X-Lites
    > that came on my other bike. Both are just fine wheels, and I get about equal performance out of
    > either. The Bontrager's look cooler and I expect my others to last longer.
    >
    > What I am trying to say is if you want fancy wheels buy them for their looks and don't be ashamed
    > of that. If you don't like silly low spoked wheels don't buy them and leave people alone who like
    > them and their slightly more difficult service.
    >
    > What it is important to understand is the behavior that goes along with purchasing boutique
    > wheels. People are not "tricked" into buying harder to service boutique wheels through marketing
    > campaigns it is just that some people have a willingness to pay a premium price for fancy wheels.
    > It is the same reason people buy cars like Jaguars with inferior reliability and higher service
    > costs, purely asthetic and image reasons. The "best" is a relative term and needs to be defined
    > based on the consumer and the product attrbutes they desire, i.e. what is best for one person may
    > not be the best for another.
    >
    > Anyway, my two cents.
    >
    > Michael Bourne
    >
    > [email protected]
    >
    > "Lanny R. Levenson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > I'm dreaming of light wheels and came a cross Topolino wheels www.topolinotech.com
    > >
    > > and wondering if people have used them and what their experience has
    been
    > > with them. I'm riding Mavic Open Pro CD with a Campy 10 setup (about
    12000
    > > miles and still true as the day I got them). Would these wheels be
    good
    > > for everyday riding? I have seen the Zipp 303 wheels but they are
    tubular
    > > and a lot more $$ and I'm not sure if they are worth the cost/bother of tubulars.
    > >
    > > Lanny
     
  17. W K

    W K Guest

    "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    hasn't this been "done" a million times?

    >. With regard to the "myth" of lower rotational mass,

    Its true that it exits, but perhaps a myth that it makes any difference.

    <snip - Ah I see, thats what you are saying with many words and numbers
     
  18. Dave Johnson

    Dave Johnson Guest

    On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:25:34 GMT [email protected] wrote,

    >When I see spokes made of "Carbon Fiber for Stiffness... and Kevlar for Toughness" I wonder whose
    >leg they are pulling. These two materials have distinctly different elastic properties, making them
    >somewhat like spokes of aluminum and steel sandwiches. The aluminum would not contribute either
    >stiffness nor toughness because the "stiff" steel would bear all the load before the aluminum was
    >even mildly stressed.

    I would take that as a poor way of saying that the carbon is for structural strength (stiffness of
    the wheel) and the kevlar is to protect the carbon from damage, making it tougher.

    I can't similarly translate "dampen road vibration" to something plausible.
    --

    Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
     
  19. "Dave Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:25:34 GMT [email protected] wrote,
    >
    > >When I see spokes made of "Carbon Fiber for Stiffness... and Kevlar for Toughness" I wonder whose
    > >leg they are pulling. These two materials have distinctly different elastic properties, making
    > >them somewhat like spokes of aluminum and steel sandwiches. The aluminum would not contribute
    > >either stiffness nor toughness because the "stiff" steel would bear all the load before the
    > >aluminum was even mildly stressed.
    >
    > I would take that as a poor way of saying that the carbon is for structural strength (stiffness of
    > the wheel) and the kevlar is to protect the carbon from damage, making it tougher.

    It is the best way of saying that the carbon is there to slow down the creep of the kevlar.

    --
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
     
  20. prestonjb

    prestonjb New Member

    Joined:
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    [email protected] wrote,
    >
    > >When I see spokes made of "Carbon Fiber for Stiffness... and Kevlar for Toughness" I wonder whose
    > >leg they are pulling. These two materials have distinctly different elastic properties, making
    > >them somewhat like spokes of aluminum and steel sandwiches. The aluminum would not contribute
    > >either stiffness nor toughness because the "stiff" steel would bear all the load before the
    > >aluminum was even mildly stressed.
    >
    > I would take that as a poor way of saying that the carbon is for structural strength (stiffness of
    > the wheel) and the kevlar is to protect the carbon from damage, making it tougher.

    It is the best way of saying that the carbon is there to slow down the creep of the kevlar.

    I think it is just like the Spinergy PBO's design. They use a plastic coating to protect the carbon. Spinergy states that the spokes can handle scratches but if the plastic is penitrated or cut through then the spoke should be replaced.

    This design looks like it uses the Kevlar to coat the carbon (and also use it to form a bladed spoke).

    So the original comment is correct but it is not a leg puller but simply the truth. The carbon is the load (or should I say tension) bearing material and the Kevlar simply protects the carbon (add toughness). Spinergy solves the same problem using a plastic coating instead of Kevlar.

    JBP
     
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