Torque wrenches

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm said:

Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like?

It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody wrote on a piece

of paper for the mechanic's judgement which takes into account the
actual tolerances, surface conditions and lubrication condition of the
parts involved.

Quoted message said:

think, 'crank bolts'....

Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the same torque
value for both sides. This is clearly an oversimplification.

It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.
Here's why:

When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that
comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.

Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right
side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,
chainring clearance problems.

Mindlessly using some arbitrary torque number ignores these real-world
differences, as it ignores other aspects of fastener condition/applicatio
n.

Torque wrenches are johnny-come-lately tools in the bike industry. I
don't think any bike shop in the world used one before the 1980s, even
though bicycle technology goes back over 100 years before that.

Sheldon "Judgement, Not Rote Number Copying" Brown

Dear Peter and Sheldon,

Most fasteners on bicycles are over-engineered by
design, so they neither break off nor loosen when
tightened by hand and Kentucky windage.

After a while, an "experienced" mechanic understandably
mistakes the forgiving nature of so many nuts and bolts
for expertise.

How does the expert know the right tension? Well, it
didn't bust off, it feels pretty tight, and he's been
doing it for years--successfully, with an occasional
need to tighten things up if they turn out to be just
a little bit loose.

The expert mechanic's opinion of his skill is increased
when he fiddles with bearings. Delicate adjustment of
wheel bearings with just enough pre-load for a quick-release
is not something that a torque wrench can do well, so the
mechanic understandably feels that his skillful touch is
superior.

What he forgets is that he doesn't adjust bearings by
skillful touch. He tightens the cone nuts by hand until
he feels resistance--skillful touch. But then he tests
by spinning the wheel and finds that he needs to skillfully
loosen the nut just a bit. Another test spin reveals that
the nut could stand to be just a little tighter---there!

Would anyone want to ride a bike whose bearings had
been adjusted solely by twisting the nuts and never
checked for proper torque by actually spinning the
bearings?

The same is true of wheel-building. Who would want to
ride wheels built solely by how tight the spoke wrench
felt to the mechanic? He tightens a spoke and checks
the result by spinning the wheel until it's roughly
true. Then he tightens the spokes up until some (often
ill-defined) situation occurs or uses a tensio-meter
to check the tension. Various magic incantations follow,
but the truing, plucking, tensio-meter and rim-yield
checking are all torque-wrench-style checking. (It's
noticeable that there is no test for the popular
stress-relief process.)

Such testing is not used on most other bicycle parts
because a quick twist of the wrench is good enough.
Even brief experience is enough to let most people
tighten a nut sufficiently to stay in place, while
few nuts are so delicate that they break even when
torqued to twice the recommended value.

But no matter how proud the experienced mechanic is of
his skillful touch, he usually gives the seat a twist
and a shove after tightening the clamp--and tightens
the clamp if the seat moves. The twist and shove is no
torque wrench, but it's the same idea of testing.

One of the more amusing sights in a motorcycle shop occurs
when one expert mechanic accidentally begins going over a
machine just worked on by another expert mechanic and starts
muttering about things being too tight or too loose.
(Machines worked on by both mechanics have no problems.
They use torque wrenches where it really matters.)

Jesus Christ probably had to listen to one Roman soldier
arguing with another about whether the spikes had been
pounded in far enough, while a third reminded them that
no one had ever fallen off a crucifix and could be slapped
back up in a hurry if he did.

Torque wrenches aren't necessary for putting bicycles
together, but a cheap beam-style torque wrench can often
surprise an experienced mechanic, who may learn that
he's been over-tightening things for years (oops!),
that he's been leaving them almost dangerously loose
(double oops!), or that he's been pretty close to what
the engineers recommend (whew!)--the last being impossible
to verify without a torque wrench, a slight swallowing of
pride, and about ten seconds of practical testing.

Go ahead, spend $20 on a beam-style torque wrench, and see
how close your judgement is to what the designers thought
would be a good heave. It's what most people would expect
from a technical forum. (Luckily, the designers don't expect
as much and over-engineer the parts.)

Carl Fogel

jeffbonny <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

So carlfogel <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

You seem lost again.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
If you've seen a doctor about anti-troll medication you should check
the dosage. If you haven't seen that doctor you should. Failing that a
logical self defense course?
You're KF-ed for a while Carl.
Bye now.

jeffb

Whew! Now that he's out of the room, I can
simply say that he's full of [censored]!

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)

Quoted message said:

There are different reasons for using a torque wrench. It must be
kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is only a tool, and will not
replace thinking. What a threaded fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an
adequate amount of tension, which is simply not-too-little and
not-too-much. This can be achieved by a truing the thread either by
hand or by a torque wrench. A torque wrench is then a measuring tool,
much like a spoke tensiometer, a tape measure, a caliper, or even a
tablespoon or measuring cup for a cook. You can make a great cake by
grabbing hands full of flour and pouring out the salt, but most people
would not want to purchase such a cake at their local grocery store.
A torque wrench, used correctly, makes a good mechanic better.
However, if basic knowledge is lacking, a torque wrench will not act
as "magic wand" making every component safe and secure.

There is also a difference between working on your own bike, and
working professionally on other peoples bikes. Correct use of a
torque wrench is one more way a shop can stand fully behind its work.
A quick look at various bicycle forums will show that the creaking
bicycle is often an issue, making lack of torque knowledge wide
spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in the
"industry" mean that we are simply behind, which should not be a
surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket science. There are now
higher torque values commonly used. While my macho friends may think
they are applying a recommend 600 in-lb torque to a bb with a 6 inch
wrench, it is not likely. One thing a torque wrench gives the user is
simply more leverage when it counts. It is true of course this extra
leverage is double edged, and can be a detriment in the wrong hands or
with light torques.

Quoted message said:

See also for threading and torque issues:
http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/thread.shtml

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/torque.shtml

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:08:35 -0400, Sheldon Brown

may have said:

Someone who turns into a piece of furniture when the moon is full said:

Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide judgement for the
inexperienced?

That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for experience.

No, really, there isn't, but I would rather have the inexperienced
turned into the knowledgeable in fewer breakage steps. IMO, it is
hardly reasonable to recommend that an amateur trust his own judgement
in tightening things *that matter* when the use of a torque wrench
would increase the chances of the result being close to right. In my
own case, long ago, after several dozen VW engine overhauls, I knew by
feel when the torque wrench was going to click on the head studs and
such, but I didn't start out knowing...and I'd have been [censored] as
hell if I'd had to do every job over several times, buying some new
bits on each iteration, just to find out what the right feel was.
When I took up cycling, I had years of mechanic experience on other
equipment...but I still had to find the places where things were
critical on bikes, and it turned out that one of them really did need
a torque wrench before I was going to get the feel. Tightening the
bolts (or nuts, on cheap BBs) on the cranks didn't have the nice,
familiar plateau whwere it became obvious that the fastener was as
snug as it needed to be; the taper meant that the effort just had a
moderately linear increase, with nothing to clearly point up the "it's
done, Jim" spot. I'll give you the contention that the left cranks
can often stand a bit more than the right, though for the life of me I
can't really understand why this is the case. Still, in that *one*
instance, had I gone at it with a wink and a guess, I'd likely have
driven the damn things all the way up the taper until the bolt
bottomed. (Yes, at times, I *am* Captain Overtorque[1].)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.
Here's why:

When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that
comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.

So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the left is wrong;

Not necessarily, I'm saying that a one-size-fits-all spec is not as
reliable as the judgement of a good mechanic.

And therein lies the rub. Many of the people who come here, and to
your site, for advice and assistance are decidedly *not* experienced.
Those whose time in service pulling on wrenches has gifted them with
the feel for when it's "tight enough" serve the amateur poorly by not
advocating the use of the tools that will give that amateur the best
chance of getting a good result. What you and I can safely do is not
necessarily good practice for them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why blame the tool?

Who's blaming the tool? Might as well blame spell checkers for some of
the amusing malapropisms that come out of various word processors.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/humor.html#checker

In some cases, the spell-checker may make things amusingly worse...but
such is the nature of this language.

BTW; here's a brainstorm for your humor entries. Reversible tubeless
tires; run them slick side out on the street, invert them to put the
knobs to the trail when going off-road. The only problem I see is
that somebody might actually think it wasn't a fake product.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right
side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,
chainring clearance problems.

So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?

I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's primarily an
automotive tool.

It's a tool, period. It has many appropriate venues, from aviation
and instrumentation to sewing machines and more. Using it is one way
of learning what "tight enough" feels like *when the parts and
fasteners are in good condition and properly prepped*...and if that
requirement is skipped, the user has got some additional education to
acquire anyway.

Quoted message said:

My point is that torque wrenches are _not_ and _essential_ tool for
bicycle work, and anybody who claims they are is blowing smoke.

They may be of some use as "training wheels" for beginner mechanics,
though I suspect that, as with training wheels for bikes, they delay
mastery.

There's no substitute for breaking/stripping a few bits of hardware to
educate you hands and brain about how a properly tightened fastener feels.

If you feel that you are incapable of judging tightness without the aid
of a torque wrench, go ahead and use one, but don't assert that
everybody needs to do so.

I would say that it's safer, and more considerate, to recommend the
use of a torque wrench for critical tasks when the experience that
would make it irrelevant is not demonstrably present. The idea is to
give the questioner the information that will lead them to the best
result they are likely to achieve. Not everyone wants, needs, or can
even acquire the feel for "tight enough" in the limited number of
times that they will perform a given task...and it's rude, to my way
of thinking, to think that they'll be better off breaking something in
the long run. The idea is to help, not to set them up for a fall.
You provide people with good, sound, practical advice so consistently
and so often that you're really the last person I thought I'd see
taking the position that has been advanced; I started to wonder who
had abducted the Umber Wizard at first. I now appears that what
you're saying is they *you* don't feel the need to use a torque
wrench. Well, for a lot of tasks, when it's *me* doing them, I agree;
I don't need one either. That doesn't mean that I would recommend
that someone else, whose abilities are unknown to me, should think
that they can do likewise. It's not, in many cases, a good bet.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:51:37 GMT, Werehatrack

may have said:

(Yes, at times, I *am* Captain Overtorque[1].)

and then I left out the footnote....

[1] Able to strip large threads with a single turn! Breaks grade 5
fasteners with his bare hands and one wrench! Who, knowing that the
only certain way to prevent the dreaded Loose Fastener is to make sure
it can *never* come off, cross threads nuts and runs them down till
they strip in place! Disguised as the mild-mannered ex-parts-manager
turned screen printer, he fights a never-ending battle to ensure that
nothing can be taken apart *at all* once *he* puts it together!

"Look! Under that van!"

"Is it a dead deer?"

"Is it an alligator?"

"Is it Uncle Ralph?"

No, it's Captain Overtorque!

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide judgement for the
inexperienced?

I replied, in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for experience.

No, really, there isn't, but I would rather have the inexperienced
turned into the knowledgeable in fewer breakage steps. IMO, it is
hardly reasonable to recommend that an amateur trust his own judgement
in tightening things *that matter* when the use of a torque wrench
would increase the chances of the result being close to right.

I believe bicyles should be user serviceable, and I don't believe in
discouraging people from fixing their bikes just because they don't own
some exotic specialized tool, when that tool is not needed.

Similarly, you'll never see me promoting the "necessity" of wearing
special clothing for cycling. I believe cycling should be a democratic
activity, and that nobody should be reluctant to ride a bike just
because they don't have some specialize clothing.

I was going to leave this repetitious thread alone, except when it got
into saying that mechanics like myself who don't find a torque wrench
necessary are either hacks or egomaniacs.

I've taught a great many people bicycle repair, hardly ever had any
problem with overtightened bottom brackets.

The usual error is to undertighten, and if you do that you discover it
because the crank loosens up, so you tighten it. That's how I learned
(not by breaking bolts...only once recall breaking a crank mounting
bolt, and I believe that was a defective one.)

Quoted message said:

In my
own case, long ago, after several dozen VW engine overhauls, I knew by
feel when the torque wrench was going to click on the head studs and
such, but I didn't start out knowing...and I'd have been [censored] as
hell if I'd had to do every job over several times, buying some new
bits on each iteration, just to find out what the right feel was.

I never denied that a torque wrench is nearly essential for doing a good
job of installing an automobile engine's cylinder head, and for other
applications involving multiple bolts with crushable gaskets, but this
application does not arise in the bicycle world.

Torque wrenches are, indeed, important _automotive_ tools.

If you can afford one and choose to go to the trouble of using one for
bicycle work, that's fine with me too, but don't tell me that _I_ (or
anybody else) _need_ a torque wrench to do a proper job on a bicycle.

Quoted message said:

When I took up cycling, I had years of mechanic experience on other
equipment...but I still had to find the places where things were
critical on bikes,

The only such parts on a bicycle that I consider truly critical are the
brake cable anchor bolts (and I've never known anybody to use a torque
wrench on those) and the wheel attachment hardware.

Sheldon "I've Broken/Stripped A Few Anchor Bolts In My Time" Brown
+----------------------------------------+
| When I am grown to man's estate |
| I shall be very proud and great, |
| And tell the other girls and boys |
| Not to meddle with my toys. |
| -R. L. Stevenson |
+----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

"Calvin Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)

Quoted message said:

There are different reasons for using a torque wrench. It must be
kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is only a tool, and will not
replace thinking. What a threaded fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an
adequate amount of tension, which is simply not-too-little and
not-too-much. This can be achieved by a truing the thread either by
hand or by a torque wrench. A torque wrench is then a measuring tool,
much like a spoke tensiometer, a tape measure, a caliper, or even a
tablespoon or measuring cup for a cook. You can make a great cake by
grabbing hands full of flour and pouring out the salt, but most people
would not want to purchase such a cake at their local grocery store.
A torque wrench, used correctly, makes a good mechanic better.
However, if basic knowledge is lacking, a torque wrench will not act
as "magic wand" making every component safe and secure.

There is also a difference between working on your own bike, and
working professionally on other peoples bikes. Correct use of a
torque wrench is one more way a shop can stand fully behind its work.
A quick look at various bicycle forums will show that the creaking
bicycle is often an issue, making lack of torque knowledge wide
spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in the
"industry" mean that we are simply behind, which should not be a
surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket science. There are now
higher torque values commonly used.

The place that I really find a torque wrench helps me is where I was
overtightening in the past. Particularly on things like brake pad
fasteners. No, I never broke one so I didn't realize I was overtightening,
but many times the spacers were warped in a not so noticeable way.

Greg

And I use my torque wrench on the stem bolt & wedge bolt. I had a wedge
bolt stripped on my TTT stem on my new bike by a mechanic at my favorite
shop. Took me a while to figure out why I couldn't get my stem out.
Let me tell you what a PITA it was getting that out.

Of course, I also use it on the BB & crank bolts too!

MOO,
Matt

G.T. said:

"Calvin Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)

Quoted message said:

There are different reasons for using a torque wrench. It must be
kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is only a tool, and will not
replace thinking. What a threaded fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an
adequate amount of tension, which is simply not-too-little and
not-too-much. This can be achieved by a truing the thread either by
hand or by a torque wrench. A torque wrench is then a measuring tool,
much like a spoke tensiometer, a tape measure, a caliper, or even a
tablespoon or measuring cup for a cook. You can make a great cake by
grabbing hands full of flour and pouring out the salt, but most people
would not want to purchase such a cake at their local grocery store.
A torque wrench, used correctly, makes a good mechanic better.
However, if basic knowledge is lacking, a torque wrench will not act
as "magic wand" making every component safe and secure.

There is also a difference between working on your own bike, and
working professionally on other peoples bikes. Correct use of a
torque wrench is one more way a shop can stand fully behind its work.
A quick look at various bicycle forums will show that the creaking
bicycle is often an issue, making lack of torque knowledge wide
spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in the
"industry" mean that we are simply behind, which should not be a
surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket science. There are now
higher torque values commonly used.

The place that I really find a torque wrench helps me is where I was
overtightening in the past. Particularly on things like brake pad
fasteners. No, I never broke one so I didn't realize I was overtightening,
but many times the spacers were warped in a not so noticeable way.

Greg

Jeff-<< You're wrong but Maestro Brown rebuts you better than I can. >><BR><BR>

Yep, we two have had this discussion before. In my mind, it's like having a
13mm bolt to tighten and having a 13mm wrench and a cresent wrench. I choose
the 13mm wrench cuz it's a better tool. When I have to tighten a crank, I have
an 8mm allen and a simple, easy to find, cheap(not exotic at all-ala Sheldon)
beam torque wrench with an 8mm end on it, I use the torque wrench cuz it's a
better tool.

If ya don't use one fine and dandy. But you don't have 'calibrated hands'. You
tighten something, it doesn't break or fall off...it was correct. But if you
needed to find 12 ft-lbs or 28, with your hands, I doubt you consistently
could.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I never denied that a torque wrench is nearly essential for doing a good
job of installing an automobile engine's cylinder head, and for other
applications involving multiple bolts with crushable gaskets, but this
application does not arise in the bicycle world.

<snip>

It seems to me that I started hearing about torque wrenches being de
rigeur about the time carbon fiber became so popular. Given what I
hear about how damage to carbon fiber parts is not always evident and
how failure can be catastrophic, I'd probably get a torque wrench if I
used carbon fiber components. I prefer just to avoid carbon fiber.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:35:09 -0400, Sheldon Brown

may have said:

The only such parts on a bicycle that I consider truly critical are the
brake cable anchor bolts (and I've never known anybody to use a torque
wrench on those)

Me neither, and I can't say that it would be an appropriate place to
even try.

Quoted message said:

and the wheel attachment hardware.

Which, with skewers, is a non-issue in any event. And with a solid
axle (which, frankly, I personally prefer) it's still questionable
whether a torque wrench is useful for that task because of the
irregularity of the mounting surface.

It's interesting to note, if you haven't run into it, that in many
places on automotive engines now, the final tightening regime for
critical fasteners isn't based on turning torque, but on a sequence of
steps which ends with rotating the bolts from a "just snug"
intermediate condition through a specific angle to their final
position.

BTW, when it comes to overtorquing something, I'll relate that I came
across a used bike at a garage sale recently which exemplified the
inappropriate application of the Armstrong Approach to Torque[1]. It
was a cheap mtb with a threadless stem, and the steerer was *very*
stiff. Looking closely, I could see that the head of the remaining
original stem pinch bolt was wallowed, the replacement for the other
was of the wrong type and had been overtightened to the point where
the threads were pulled out, and the bolt in the top cap had been run
down until the cap was badly distorted. The seller said the bike was
"messed up", and wanted $10 for it. All things considered, for a
Walgoose-level unit with as many things futzed as that one had
visible, I decided that I'd pass.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Hi, the Park torque wrenches are beam type. I've had mixed messages about
beam type torque wrenches, been warned off by some and recommended them by
others. The other type (that gives/clicks when the set torque is reached)
seem to be refered to as clickers.

The confusion over what is/isn't good was one of the reasons for posting
originally.

So [email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) says:

Quoted message said:

Jeff-<< You're wrong but Maestro Brown rebuts you better than I can. >><BR><BR>

Yep, we two have had this discussion before. In my mind, it's like having a
13mm bolt to tighten and having a 13mm wrench and a cresent wrench. I choose
the 13mm wrench cuz it's a better tool. When I have to tighten a crank, I have
an 8mm allen and a simple, easy to find, cheap(not exotic at all-ala Sheldon)
beam torque wrench with an 8mm end on it, I use the torque wrench cuz it's a
better tool.

If ya don't use one fine and dandy. But you don't have 'calibrated hands'. You
tighten something, it doesn't break or fall off...it was correct. But if you
needed to find 12 ft-lbs or 28, with your hands, I doubt you consistently
could.

For tightening 8mm crank bolts I use the same 16" 1/2" drive socket
bar I used In the shop for years and I can find a specific number of
ft lbs more reliably than you believe and certainly always within the
tolerances required on bicycles. The longer the lever the more easy it
is to feel and apply smaller degree of torque and since this is a tool
I've been using for years I know what it does. Using an off the rack
4" 8mm allen wrench I probably could not be accurate often enough to
satisfy you I admit.

BTW I never said I had "calibrated" hands, just sensitive ones
attached as SB says to a brain. You seem to think that a torque wrench
is a cure for inexperience, incompetence or a hangover but it ain't.

jeffb

The routine use of torque wrenches ignores the fact that not all
thread pairs of a given size will respond the same to a fixed torque
value.

Industrially, torque specs are typically given for clean dry threads,
even if the threads in question are supposed to be lubricated. Why?
Because clean dry threads offer the best hope of getting anything like
a consistent fastener tension for a given torque. You are supposed to
make all necessary measurements to obtain a similar fastener tension
with whatever grease you happen to be using-- not that anybody
actually does that, of course.

Lubricant on threads can reduce the necessary torque to reach a given
fastener tension by more than half. The specific amount varies widely
according to lubrication type and amount, tension range, thread pitch
angle, component surface finish, and other factors.

Likewise, the maximum tension a given thread pair can withstand
without damage is dependent on the specific materials, tolerances, and
thread depth of each part as well as their relationship to each other.
Tiny variations in fit clearance and pitch length can make a dramatic
difference in failure torque.

Using a torque wrench and a reference table without regard to issues
that affect the specific part in question is no better than an
experienced mechanic honking on it until it "feels tight enough". For
someone without mechanical experience, a torque wrench and reference
table can get an assembly in the ballpark of tolerable conditions, and
in the workplace it can provide serious ability to CYA. But let's be
frank about what it offers-- a close-order-of-magnitude level of
precision, functionally the same as a trained technician's judgment
call.

Chalo Colina

jeff-<< You seem to think that a torque wrench
is a cure for inexperience, incompetence or a hangover but it ain't. >><BR><BR>

It's not a 'cure' for anything, just a better tool for the job.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts approach via the
torque wrench essentially thinking or educational approach skirting
trilal and error when bolting the abarth's head down. yeahyeahyeah and
yawl did this and once screwed it up good.
so. ahem. if one who wonders about this stuff takes a handful of
various sizes and a board bolts the nuts up with
a. grease
a1. never anti seize
b. no grease
c. try rust
d.blue oem loctite
e. red loctites

at relevant torque levels
then yagotta idea.

but don't thro the wrench away
someday yawl have three beers and...

g.daniels said:

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts approach via the
torque wrench essentially thinking or educational approach skirting
trilal and error when bolting the abarth's head down....

Fiat or Simca?

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Sheldon Brown said:

I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's primarily an
automotive tool.

I'm sure you could have a lively debate on this point with an A&P (FAA
licensed Airframe and Powerplant mechanic). Torque wrenches are
appropriate tools for properly tightening any threaded fastener, from
the head bolts on Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engines to bypass valves
on commercial jets.

If the well trained human body could successfully reproduce a
mechanical function 100% of the time, professional bowlers would bowl
nothing but 300 games and NBA players would never miss a free throw.
We are variable creatures. Torque wrenches are not.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Quoted message said:

g.daniels said:

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts approach via the
torque wrench essentially thinking or educational approach skirting
trilal and error when bolting the abarth's head down....

Tom Sherman said:

Fiat or Simca?

Abarth was Colin Chapman's (Lotus) middle name.

(Simca gets my vote for worst car of all time - but I
haven't actually worked on a Trabant outdoors in a Wisconsin
winter)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

g.daniels said:

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts approach via the
torque wrench essentially thinking or educational approach skirting
trilal and error when bolting the abarth's head down....

Tom Sherman said:

Fiat or Simca?

Abarth was Colin Chapman's (Lotus) middle name.

(Simca gets my vote for worst car of all time - but I haven't actually
worked on a Trabant outdoors in a Wisconsin winter)

I was thinking of Carlo Abarth. I would be willing to put up with a
Simca Abarth if someone donated one to me.
<http://www.michaelp.org/photos/cars/winehist2000/simca_abarth.jpg>

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)