Touching The Void on CH 4



P

Peewiglet

Guest
On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:58:29 -0000, "Paul Saunders"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Peewiglet wrote:
>
>>> However, I do not think I would have had the mental strength to
>>> persevere with the long trek back to the base camp. I KNOW I could
>>> never be physically strong enough.

>>
>> And absolutely again. I'm quite sure I coulnd't have done it, in the
>> same way as I know there's no way I could have cut off my arm as Aaron
>> Ralston did. I don't have that sort of determination to cling to life.

>
>Again, I disagree. You just don't know what you're capable of until you
>find yourself in that situation. You can never know, unless it happens to
>you. Then, and only then, will you really discover what you are capable of.


You're right, of course, but I'd be amazed if it turned out that I had
that sort of determination.
>
>We can make assumptions, but if a life or death experience ever happens to
>any of us, some may turn out to be wimps, others heroes, but no-one knows
>which in advance. The desire to live can be very strong, and we don't all
>have the same intensity of desire.


Quite right: I'm sure I don't, but I may be wrong.


Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk
 
P

Peewiglet

Guest
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:04:09 +0000, Judith
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:03:03 -0000, "Paul Saunders"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> No, I mustn't read exciting books in bed - I get over-stimulated.
>>>
>>> I've had to move my SAS Survival Book from the side of my bed for just
>>> that reason.

>>
>>Have you, or anyone else, been watching Commando VIP?

>
>Never heard of it.


No, but I think I saw it mentioned in the paper this morning and
wondered whether I'd been missing anything good.

Have you seen it? If so, what is is?


Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk
 
J

Judith

Guest
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:04:15 +0000, Peewiglet <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>I've had to move my SAS Survival Book from the side of my bed for just
>>that reason.

>
>Best not lend you that Book of the Bivvy book after all, then....


I've bought it and it is at the side of my bed! It makes me laugh, so
is good bedtime reading.

Hm? Shall I sleep in the Quantum 400 tonight?

Judith
 
P

Peewiglet

Guest
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:08:08 +0000, Judith
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:04:15 +0000, Peewiglet <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>>I've had to move my SAS Survival Book from the side of my bed for just
>>>that reason.

>>
>>Best not lend you that Book of the Bivvy book after all, then....

>
>I've bought it and it is at the side of my bed! It makes me laugh, so
>is good bedtime reading.
>
>Hm? Shall I sleep in the Quantum 400 tonight?


I think you should. It's pretty cold out there, after all, and you
need to be sure you're accustomed to your new bag...


(You should nip into the garden for a spider and a wood louse to make
the experience that bit more realistic, and stick a couple of small
rocks under the mattress to simulate sleeping on a Karrimat ;-)


Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk
 
J

Judith

Guest
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:05:19 +0000, Peewiglet <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>Again, I disagree. You just don't know what you're capable of until you
>>find yourself in that situation. You can never know, unless it happens to
>>you. Then, and only then, will you really discover what you are capable of.

>
>You're right, of course, but I'd be amazed if it turned out that I had
>that sort of determination.


I don't know how many hours of interview were recorded for TTV, and
how much was snipped and edited together, but I was impressed [1] by
the matter-of-factness displayed by both climbers.

Both made decisions which they knew they would live, or die, by.
Fortunately I have never been in that situation but I hope I could
make a "doing" decision rather than a "sitting and waiting" decision -
although, in the sort of places I go, sitting and waiting may be the
best choice.

Anyway, time for bed now - I have a small library to digest.

Judith
[1] I mean "it made an impression on me" rather than I thought highly
of it.
 
P

Paul Saunders

Guest
Peewiglet wrote:

> You're right, of course, but I'd be amazed if it turned out that I had
> that sort of determination.


So would I.

>> We can make assumptions, but if a life or death experience ever
>> happens to any of us, some may turn out to be wimps, others heroes,
>> but no-one knows which in advance. The desire to live can be very
>> strong, and we don't all have the same intensity of desire.

>
> Quite right: I'm sure I don't, but I may be wrong.


I'm pretty sure I don't either, but you never know. I doubt I'd be content
to just sit there and simply wait to die. I'd probably make an effort. But
I probably woudn't succeed...

But you never know.

Paul
 
P

Paul Saunders

Guest
Peewiglet wrote:

>>> Have you, or anyone else, been watching Commando VIP?

>>
>> Never heard of it.

>
> No, but I think I saw it mentioned in the paper this morning and
> wondered whether I'd been missing anything good.
>
> Have you seen it? If so, what is is?


Well you know those SAS/commando training type programmes? It was one of
those, but with VIPs, a kind of Celebrity Commando programme. Nigel Benn
was one of those included, as well as another boxer and some muscley git
from a Big Brother programme I think (but not sure), and some woman who
plays a tough girl in some TV series, and a dancer bloke. Oh, and some
"jackass" from the US. (sorry if I can't identify all these people
correctly, I don't watch much TV)

Anyway, it was good for a laugh, it's finished now, Most of them did
really badly, but the dancer came out on top, and the woman was rated
second, so kudos to her. Some of the other macho blokes just didn't have a
clue.

Paul
 
M

mikek

Guest
"Paul Saunders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Judith wrote:
>
>> However, I do not think I would have had the mental strength to
>> persevere with the long trek back to the base camp. I KNOW I could
>> never be physically strong enough.

>
> It's mental, not physical. No-one knows what they're really capable of
> until they find themselves in a situation like that.
>
> Paul
>With the current rise in belief in all sorts of religious and superstitious
>mumberjumbo it was nice to hear that god did'nt come come into it.
>Referring to the scene in the crevasse where the poor guy says he had a
>Catholic upbringing but he had not felt the need to pray. The humanist
>movie equivalent to "March of the Penguins"?
 
C

Chris Malcolm

Guest
Paul Saunders <[email protected]> wrote:
> Judith wrote:


>> However, I do not think I would have had the mental strength to
>> persevere with the long trek back to the base camp. I KNOW I could
>> never be physically strong enough.


> It's mental, not physical. No-one knows what they're really capable of
> until they find themselves in a situation like that.


I once read a survey article about surviving in hard conditions which
looked at lots of cases and came to the conclusion that mental
strength was the key factor, way ahead of physical strength. The
really major killer was giving up in despair.

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 
P

Peewiglet

Guest
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:12:25 +0000, Judith
<[email protected]> wrote:

[...]
>Anyway, time for bed now - I have a small library to digest.


You're supposed to be reading the books, Judith, not eating the
blasted things. No wonder they're giving you nightmares!




:)



Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk
 
Chris Malcolm wrote:

> I once read a survey article about surviving in hard conditions which
> looked at lots of cases and came to the conclusion that mental
> strength was the key factor, way ahead of physical strength. The
> really major killer was giving up in despair.


Yeah. I once an account of two identical WW2 liferafts from the same
ship with equal crew numbers. Once stuck to military discipline and
worked as a team keeping the thing clean and tidy. The other just sat
back and waited for rescue.

IMHO logic says the ones who conserved their energy by doing as little
as possible might have fared better. In fact the 'Arnold Rimmers' who
kept apparently pointless routines and standards all lived and the
other boat was decimated.

I've read 'Touching the Void' and I'm sure I'd make the same descisions
Simon and Joe made. Without their resourcefulness I doubt I'd have been
successful but I'd have tried. Neither had an option.

Kill Friend or die with him? Easy call. (Difficult consiquences)
Wait to die or die trying to help yourself? Easy call.
 
R

Roger

Guest
The message <[email protected]>
from Judith <[email protected]> contains these words:

> >I'll be interested to know what you make of it, and particularly if
> >you've also read the book.


> No, I haven't read the book and, although I was aware of the basic
> story and of the criticism surrounding the decision to cut the rope, I
> had no idea whether the bloke at the end of the rope was rescued or if
> he made his own way down.


I got the book as a Xmas present a few years ago. I found it absolutely
gripping. Once started I couldn't put it down till I finished and its
been a long time since I have been so engrossed in a book. As a child I
had been known to read 2 or 3 books in a single day. These days that
would be a good total for a whole year, :-(

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)
 
T

Tony Buckley

Guest
Paul Saunders wrote

> It's mental, not physical. No-one knows what they're really capable of
> until they find themselves in a situation like that.


You struggle, and endure, and persevere, until even the stiffest of upper
lips would be beginning to weaken, and then when you're beyond all physical
and mental endurance, the cruellest blow of all is dealt to you...

....Boney M.

T.
 
T

Tony Buckley

Guest
Paul Saunders wrote

> Anyway, it was good for a laugh, it's finished now, Most of them did
> really badly, but the dancer came out on top


I didn't see it, but that result doesn't surprise me. However you measure
it (general strength, localised strength, stamina, endurance, flexibility,
speed etc) dancers have to be damn fit.

T.
At least two left feet...
 
M

Mike Clark

Guest
In message <[email protected]>
"mikek" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Paul Saunders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > Judith wrote:
> >
> >> However, I do not think I would have had the mental strength to
> >> persevere with the long trek back to the base camp. I KNOW I could
> >> never be physically strong enough.

> >
> > It's mental, not physical. No-one knows what they're really capable of
> > until they find themselves in a situation like that.
> >
> > Paul

> With the current rise in belief in all sorts of religious and
> superstitious mumberjumbo it was nice to hear that god did'nt come
> come into it. Referring to the scene in the crevasse where the poor
> guy says he had a Catholic upbringing but he had not felt the need to
> pray. The humanist movie equivalent to "March of the Penguins"?
>
>


When Joe Simpson was on Desert Island discs, Sue Lawley continually
questioned him on any religious influence on him at the time of the
incident. He withstood the onslaught from her very well.

Several times over the years I've heard both Simon Yates and Joe Simpson
give excellent mountaineering lectures in which they've discussed their
various viewpoints. Joe Simpson's book "The Beckoning Silence" is also
an excellent read and gives a more recent perspective on Joe's thoughts
about past events.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
 
P

Phil Cook

Guest
Judith wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:24:28 +0000, Peewiglet <[email protected]>
>wrote:


>>Yes, but it's a truly wonderful book: I felt that the film paled in
>>comparison. You really should read it.

>
>I can't read books. It takes too long. I find other things to do.


I read most of Touching The Void by candle-light in A 'Chuil bothy.

My favourite place for reading is in bed. the only problem is that it
keeps me awake if it's a good read :-(
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"
 
P

Phil Cook

Guest
Judith wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:05:19 +0000, Peewiglet <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>>Again, I disagree. You just don't know what you're capable of until you
>>>find yourself in that situation. You can never know, unless it happens to
>>>you. Then, and only then, will you really discover what you are capable of.

>>
>>You're right, of course, but I'd be amazed if it turned out that I had
>>that sort of determination.

>
>I don't know how many hours of interview were recorded for TTV, and
>how much was snipped and edited together, but I was impressed [1] by
>the matter-of-factness displayed by both climbers.


They actually went back to basecamp and the lower slopes to do some of
the filming. I wasn't easy for either of them but Simon found it very
difficult. I think Joe got really upset about the fact the director
was putting the film unit in danger.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"
 
B

Bob Watkinson

Guest
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
>> I once read a survey article about surviving in hard conditions which
>> looked at lots of cases and came to the conclusion that mental
>> strength was the key factor, way ahead of physical strength. The
>> really major killer was giving up in despair.

>
> Yeah. I once an account of two identical WW2 liferafts from the same
> ship with equal crew numbers. Once stuck to military discipline and
> worked as a team keeping the thing clean and tidy. The other just sat
> back and waited for rescue.
>
> IMHO logic says the ones who conserved their energy by doing as little
> as possible might have fared better. In fact the 'Arnold Rimmers' who
> kept apparently pointless routines and standards all lived and the
> other boat was decimated.
>
> I've read 'Touching the Void' and I'm sure I'd make the same descisions


The decision that always astonishes me is the one JS made to descend
further into the crevasse. I don't think that would have occurred to me if I
were in that position
 
B

Bob Watkinson

Guest
"Peewiglet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:07:58 +0000, Judith
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [...]
>>>I'll be interested to know what you make of it, and particularly if
>>>you've also read the book.

>>
>>No, I haven't read the book and, although I was aware of the basic
>>story and of the criticism surrounding the decision to cut the rope, I
>>had no idea whether the bloke at the end of the rope was rescued or if
>>he made his own way down.
>>
>>I feel quite drained now. Flipping 'eck. I'd have curled up and
>>hoped to die whilst still in the first crevasse. IMO, there was a lot
>>of courage and strength shown by both men.
>>
>>I am not a climber but I like to think I would have had the sense and
>>mental strength to cut the rope. IMO that was the only option.

>
> Absolutely!
>
>>However, I do not think I would have had the mental strength to
>>persevere with the long trek back to the base camp. I KNOW I could
>>never be physically strong enough.

>
> And absolutely again. I'm quite sure I coulnd't have done it, in the
> same way as I know there's no way I could have cut off my arm as Aaron
> Ralston did. I don't have that sort of determination to cling to life.


I wonder. If you could have asked both people before their experiences,
whether they could have done it, would they have said they could or not?