Touring bikes: Index or friction shifting?

[still just me]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:50:21 +0200, Lou Holtman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>True, but it is also silly to scare people away from them because of
>reliability issues.
>
>Lou

There's no question that a complex brifter will be less reliable that
a simple friction shifter and the corresponding simple brake lever.

I notice that I see a lot of neglected bikes from the 70's in the
local dump and the shifters and brakes still work reliably. I don't
think that will be the case with 30-40 year old brifters.

But, the question, of course, would be whether the brifter is reliable
enough for your application.

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 23, 1:40 pm, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:50:21 +0200, Lou Holtman
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >True, but it is also silly to scare people away from them because of
> >reliability issues.
>
> >Lou
>
> There's no question that a complex brifter will be less reliable that
> a simple friction shifter and the corresponding simple brake lever.
> ...
> But, the question, of course, would be whether the brifter is reliable
> enough for your application.

Right. The problems I've seen have been on a touring bike, where it
always required two tries to shift to the lowest rear cog, despite all
attempts at adjustment; and on a bike that was in storage for a few
years, that wouldn't shift at all until about an hour was spent
flushing with WD-40 spray.

Compared to that, here's the count of problems I've had with other
shifters: Zero.

Now I'm not counting broken cables, which can happen with any
shifter. But they're significantly harder to repair with STI.

I think STI's benefit/detriment balance works best for racers, who
seek every tenth of a second while racing, and who spend lots of time
maintaining their bikes to watch-like precision. I think STI makes
much, much less sense for somebody riding across South Dakota.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

>I think STI's benefit/detriment balance works best for racers, who
>seek every tenth of a second while racing, and who spend lots of time
>maintaining their bikes to watch-like precision. I think STI makes
>much, much less sense for somebody riding across South Dakota.

Good advice Frank!!

Thanks

 

[Lou Holtman]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 23, 1:40 pm, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:50:21 +0200, Lou Holtman
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> True, but it is also silly to scare people away from them because of
>>> reliability issues.
>>> Lou
>> There's no question that a complex brifter will be less reliable that
>> a simple friction shifter and the corresponding simple brake lever.
>> ...
>> But, the question, of course, would be whether the brifter is reliable
>> enough for your application.
>
> Right. The problems I've seen have been on a touring bike, where it
> always required two tries to shift to the lowest rear cog, despite all
> attempts at adjustment;

Didn't you tell that on your daughters bike you pushed the limit on that
largest cog?

> and on a bike that was in storage for a few
> years, that wouldn't shift at all until about an hour was spent
> flushing with WD-40 spray.

Wow, one example. Someone who leaves a bike unused for years doesn't
deserve better ;-)

>
> Compared to that, here's the count of problems I've had with other
> shifters: Zero.

Frank, in more than fifteen years I had ZERO problems with brifters and
index shifters. Shimano, Campa, Sram and none of my riding buddies has.
How about that?

>
> Now I'm not counting broken cables, which can happen with any
> shifter. But they're significantly harder to repair with STI.

With good quality cables a broken shift cable is very, very very rare so
that is not a decisive argument either IMO.

>
> I think STI's benefit/detriment balance works best for racers, who
> seek every tenth of a second while racing, and who spend lots of time
> maintaining their bikes to watch-like precision. I think STI makes
> much, much less sense for somebody riding across South Dakota.

Convenience Frank, convenience. Some people like that. Has nothing to do
with tenth of seconds shift speed. Open your mind for once and stop
telling people hell can break loose when the use them on a touring trip.
Your daughter made through South Dakota didn't she?

Lou

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Apr 18, 3:14 pm, Rex Kerr <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > I can understand wanting to use shifters with a friction *option*
> > > (e.g., DT shifters or barends) as a backup in case of difficulties
> > > whilst on a tour. But why, oh why, would anyone, save for a Hobbit,
> > > want to use a friction *only* shifter??
> >
> > I honestly do not miss indexing when I don't have it, and enjoy the
> > flexibility of throwing any combination of parts together and having it
> > work well.  Indexing is overrated.
> >
>
> Gotta agree with this. After working on bikes all day, last thing I
> want to do is work on my bike.

Hello, Peter.
Work on it first thing in the morning.

> I think lever mounted shifting is
> 'essential' for racers, beginners and mountain bikes that are actually
> ridden in the rough..for all others, it is firmly in the 'nice to
> have, but not essential' catagory. IMHO, of course.

I never had lever mounted shifters.
My curiosity was satisfied on some test rides,
and no desire arose for them. When building
a new bicycle I was strongly driven by appearance
and did not want the clutter on the bars.
Getting rid of banana cutters was a boon.
Why add cabling after that?

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> > On Apr 18, 3:14 pm, Rex Kerr <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>> I can understand wanting to use shifters with a friction *option*
> >>> (e.g., DT shifters or barends) as a backup in case of difficulties
> >>> whilst on a tour. But why, oh why, would anyone, save for a Hobbit,
> >>> want to use a friction *only* shifter??
> >> I honestly do not miss indexing when I don't have it, and enjoy the
> >> flexibility of throwing any combination of parts together and having it
> >> work well. Indexing is overrated.
> >>
> >
> > Gotta agree with this. After working on bikes all day, last thing I
> > want to do is work on my bike. I think lever mounted shifting is
> > 'essential' for racers, beginners and mountain bikes that are actually
> > ridden in the rough..for all others, it is firmly in the 'nice to
> > have, but not essential' catagory. IMHO, of course.
>
>
> True, but it is also silly to scare people away from them because of
> reliability issues.

Where in the quoted material do you find that which you call silly?
Peter argues in the opposite direction.

--
Michael Press

 

[Rex Kerr]

Lou Holtman wrote:
> Frank, in more than fifteen years I had ZERO problems with brifters and
> index shifters. Shimano, Campa, Sram and none of my riding buddies has.
> How about that?

While we're proving our opinions with anecdotes, I have a few to add.

The rear brifter on my road bike (Tiagara) is starting to act up.
Sometimes when I press the inner lever to upshift it binds and doesn't
want to shift and I have to wiggle the brake lever to free it up. It's
eight years old, but doesn't have too many miles because it's not my
favorite bike.

I had a bike that had SRAM grip shifters where the plastic sleeve that
it rotated on in the rear shifter went to pieces and had to be replaced.
I replaced it with Shimano thumb shifters. They worked just fine for
a while until they were put into storage. When they came out they were
gummy and would occasionally not shift down, there'd be no resistance
when pressing the thumb lever as the ratchet wouldn't catch. I cleaned
and regreased it many times and it still doesn't work every time, though
is better.

OTOH, SunTour barends, covered in grime and found in the bottom of a box
that somebody left at my parents' rental when they moved out worked
perfectly after a quick cleaning, as did the ones that I pulled off of a
bike that was wrecked and had a free sign on it, as did the ones that a
coworker gave me when he found them cleaning out his garage.

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. (~1892)

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 23, 5:14 pm, Rex Kerr <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Frank, in more than fifteen years I had ZERO problems with brifters and
> > index shifters. Shimano, Campa, Sram and none of my riding buddies has.
> > How about that?
>
> While we're proving our opinions with anecdotes, I have a few to add.
>
> The rear brifter on my road bike (Tiagara) is starting to act up.
> Sometimes when I press the inner lever to upshift it binds and doesn't
> want to shift and I have to wiggle the brake lever to free it up.  It's
> eight years old, but doesn't have too many miles because it's not my
> favorite bike.
>
> I had a bike that had SRAM grip shifters where the plastic sleeve that
> it rotated on in the rear shifter went to pieces and had to be replaced.
>   I replaced it with Shimano thumb shifters.  They worked just fine for
> a while until they were put into storage.  When they came out they were
> gummy and would occasionally not shift down, there'd be no resistance
> when pressing the thumb lever as the ratchet wouldn't catch.  I cleaned
> and regreased it many times and it still doesn't work every time, though
> is better.
>
> OTOH, SunTour barends, covered in grime and found in the bottom of a box
> that somebody left at my parents' rental when they moved out worked
> perfectly after a quick cleaning, as did the ones that I pulled off of a
> bike that was wrecked and had a free sign on it, as did the ones that a
> coworker gave me when he found them cleaning out his garage.

The problem with the original SunTour bar ends is that they were
spec'd with uncoated stainless steel housing -- and when ridden in the
rain for any length of time, all the lubrication would get washed
out. But apart from that, they were bomb proof -- like so much of the
old equipment. A lot of it was bomb weight, too.

I don't think reliability is that much of an issue with indexing, and
one should just buy what one likes. I have a commuter bike that has
seen more rain and grit than most touring bikes (months of rain --
like riding home tonight), and the STI works fine for me. YMMV. If
you like STI but are chicken, take a cell phone with roaming or a 1oz
set of DT shifters as back up. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[[email protected]]

A shy person wrote (briefly):

> What would you go for and why?

Who still makes friction retained shift levers and why should they?
The reason for indexed shifting is obvious and it applies to all kinds
of bicycle derailleur shifting. Hub gears have always been indexed.
I don't understand what a touring, racing, or dirt bicycle has to do
with the kind of shift lever is used.

I think the matter has been discussed here at length and there seemed
to be no support for friction shift levers. Beyond that. friction
levers have the same resistance to motion in both directions, variable
by how tight the retaining screw is tightened, while indexed levers
move freely in both directions, their hold being provided by detents
into which balls fit and prefer to remain.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Brifters without a doubt.
>
> I'm curious.... any stats on how many bikes are sold
> each year with al the various systems?
>
> Would be interesting to see what the top dog is sales
> wise

About 100 million bikes are made every year:

http://quickrelease.tv/?p=279

The US consumes 20 M of those.

China produces 79 M of those, and exports about 51 M, leaving 28 M for
the domestic market.

Actually, as I keep reading this report, the numbers literally don't add
up, so we're clearly in speculation or "other" mode here, but...

I think it's safe to assume that the plurality of all bikes sold each
year (if not the majority) are singlespeeds.

If you want to focus on the US market, and probably exclude kids' bikes
too, it's probably flat-bar trigger shifters, found on everything above
the cheapest models (which use very cheap-looking thumbies) in
departmentstoreland.

If you're talking about "serious" "road" bikes, it's easy: brifters
brifters brifters. Nothing else even comes close, sales-wise, as a trip
to any drop-bar-oriented LBS would make clear.

The only thing that makes it even close is tri/TT bikes, which usually
use bar-end shifters at the ends of the aerobars. The existence of that
market is probably the only reason Shimano and Campy still make bar-end
shifters, and the fact that their current bar-end design is just a DT
shifter with a bar-end mount is the only reason you can still spec a new
DT indexed shifter.

New bikes with friction shifters? Ask Grant Petersen how many Rivendells
he sells that way, and he's probably around half of all global sales.

Somewhere in my glib summary the Sturmey-Archer hubs of the world may be
screwing things up with their vast mass of still-in-existence indexed
3-speed levers, but I have been typing too long to care.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 23, 5:11 pm, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> >
>
> > Right. The problems I've seen have been on a touring bike, where it
> > always required two tries to shift to the lowest rear cog, despite all
> > attempts at adjustment;
>
> Didn't you tell that on your daughters bike you pushed the limit on that
> largest cog?

We were certainly close to the limit. Again, I don't remember tooth
counts, or derailleur model, and the bike's far from here. But it was
_supposed_ to work. I wouldn't set out coast-to-coast with an
experimental setup!

>
> > and on a bike that was in storage for a few
> > years, that wouldn't shift at all until about an hour was spent
> > flushing with WD-40 spray.
>
> Wow, one example. Someone who leaves a bike unused for years doesn't
> deserve better ;-)

Whatever. Have you ever heard of anyone else having to do that WD-40
flush with STI? Of course you have. It's not uncommon.

Have you ever heard of anyone needing to do it with any other shifter?

> > I think STI's benefit/detriment balance works best for racers, who
> > seek every tenth of a second while racing, and who spend lots of time
> > maintaining their bikes to watch-like precision. I think STI makes
> > much, much less sense for somebody riding across South Dakota.
>
> Convenience Frank, convenience. Some people like that. Has nothing to do
> with tenth of seconds shift speed. Open your mind for once and stop
> telling people hell can break loose when the use them on a touring trip.
> Your daughter made through South Dakota didn't she?

You seem to misunderstand me - or perhaps you're just very dismayed
that my opinion is different from yours.

Yes, my daughter made it across the Dakotas and beyond. She had an
excellent bike mechanic with her. ;-) But there are many bike
tourists who are not (and have not) excellent bike mechanics on tour.
If one of them has an STI lever go bad, they're not so likely to make
it. Not without a big taxi bill, anyway.

Of course, nobody's claimed every STI lever goes bad. But, IMO,
nobody can truthfully claim they are as reliable as, say, indexed bar-
end shifters.

If you like STI for the convenience of not having to move your hand
8", that's fine. I'm not trying to forbid their use. I'm responding
to a request for judgment. Your mileage - and judgment - may differ.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Ben C]

On 2008-04-24, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> A shy person wrote (briefly):
>
>> What would you go for and why?
>
> Who still makes friction retained shift levers and why should they?
> The reason for indexed shifting is obvious and it applies to all kinds
> of bicycle derailleur shifting. Hub gears have always been indexed.
> I don't understand what a touring, racing, or dirt bicycle has to do
> with the kind of shift lever is used.

The idea is if you're touring then you don't mind taking a few seconds
to find the gear. If you're racing you need to react quickly to attacks.
For mountain biking indexing is good because you're hanging on for dear
life over the rocks and can't so easily get the feel you need for
friction shifting.

> I think the matter has been discussed here at length and there seemed
> to be no support for friction shift levers.

I quite liked them. Once you got used to them they were perfectly easy
to shift with and you could also move two or three gears at a time in
one step. The best part was almost no maintenance and never any chain
rub.

I do no maintenance and never get any chain rub on my indexed Campag
"Ergos" but getting the adjustment right for cheap/nasty/slightly
damaged indexing systems can be very difficult.

 

[still just me]

On 24 Apr 2008 00:58:31 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>A shy person wrote (briefly):
>
>> What would you go for and why?
>
>Who still makes friction retained shift levers and why should they?
>The reason for indexed shifting is obvious and it applies to all kinds
>of bicycle derailleur shifting. Hub gears have always been indexed.
>I don't understand what a touring, racing, or dirt bicycle has to do
>with the kind of shift lever is used.

The OP's issue was reliability on a long tour, IIRC. Simple, strong
parts win (i.e. friction).

>I think the matter has been discussed here at length and there seemed
>to be no support for friction shift levers.

Actually, there seems to be quite a lot of support, as apparent in
this thread.

>Beyond that. friction
>levers have the same resistance to motion in both directions, variable
>by how tight the retaining screw is tightened, while indexed levers
>move freely in both directions, their hold being provided by detents
>into which balls fit and prefer to remain.

Considering the power available in my finger/hand, the distinction is
irrelevant.

 

[Hank]

On Apr 23, 6:48 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> wrote:
>
> > [email protected] wrote:
>
> > >Brifters without a doubt.
>
> > I'm curious.... any stats on how many bikes are sold
> > each year with al the various systems?
>
> > Would be interesting to see what the top dog is sales
> > wise
>
> About 100 million bikes are made every year:
>
> http://quickrelease.tv/?p=279
>
> The US consumes 20 M of those.
>
> China produces 79 M of those, and exports about 51 M, leaving 28 M for
> the domestic market.
>
> Actually, as I keep reading this report, the numbers literally don't add
> up, so we're clearly in speculation or "other" mode here, but...
>
> I think it's safe to assume that the plurality of all bikes sold each
> year (if not the majority) are singlespeeds.
>
> If you want to focus on the US market, and probably exclude kids' bikes
> too, it's probably flat-bar trigger shifters, found on everything above
> the cheapest models (which use very cheap-looking thumbies) in
> departmentstoreland.
>
> If you're talking about "serious" "road" bikes, it's easy: brifters
> brifters brifters. Nothing else even comes close, sales-wise, as a trip
> to any drop-bar-oriented LBS would make clear.
>
> The only thing that makes it even close is tri/TT bikes, which usually
> use bar-end shifters at the ends of the aerobars. The existence of that
> market is probably the only reason Shimano and Campy still make bar-end
> shifters, and the fact that their current bar-end design is just a DT
> shifter with a bar-end mount is the only reason you can still spec a new
> DT indexed shifter.
>
> New bikes with friction shifters? Ask Grant Petersen how many Rivendells
> he sells that way, and he's probably around half of all global sales.
>
> Somewhere in my glib summary the Sturmey-Archer hubs of the world may be
> screwing things up with their vast mass of still-in-existence indexed
> 3-speed levers, but I have been typing too long to care.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau [email protected]://www.wiredcola.com/
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

I agree with everything except about flat-bar trigger shifters. in the
sub-$400 arena, twist-grips rule the roost

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<77268977-3963-4406-b50b-0e1e28df9238@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Hank <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Apr 23, 6:48 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > wrote:
> >
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > >Brifters without a doubt.
> >
> > > I'm curious.... any stats on how many bikes are sold
> > > each year with al the various systems?
> >
> > > Would be interesting to see what the top dog is sales
> > > wise
> >
> > About 100 million bikes are made every year:
> >
> > http://quickrelease.tv/?p=279

> > I think it's safe to assume that the plurality of all bikes sold each
> > year (if not the majority) are singlespeeds.
> >
> > If you want to focus on the US market, and probably exclude kids' bikes
> > too, it's probably flat-bar trigger shifters, found on everything above
> > the cheapest models (which use very cheap-looking thumbies) in
> > departmentstoreland.

> I agree with everything except about flat-bar trigger shifters. in the
> sub-$400 arena, twist-grips rule the roost

But of course! You are correct, and I forgot all about twist-grip
shifters.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."