Touring - Early 1990s Shimano group

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

> Deore started as a quality (for those days) touring group.
> Since the earliest ATB's didn't have componentry of their
> own, they used Touring parts, and the early frame geometry
> was actually built to accommodate
> it.
>
> Eventually, ATB componentry and frames became a separate
> species unto itself. And the Deore line became dedicated
> to it's adopted new species. (and the tourist was once
> again left behind to rot).

I keep hearing this from tourists in this newsgroup. Now,
I'm no randonneur, but I've been known to taunt them and
encourage them to build fixies and other stuff.

So, what exactly do you think is missing, componentry-wise,
from the tourist arsenal?

Canti brakes? Widely available. long-cage rear derailleurs?
Your choice of Deore, Deore LX, or Deore XT. gear clusters?
Some very good touring choices in Shimano's stock road and
mountain clusters, or get Sheldon to set up a Century
Special for you. Good triples? Too many to choose from. Your
choice of square-taper or ISIS BBs; for triples with
Hollowtech II, tourists will have to temporarily settle for
XT with 4-bolt and look for custom rings; Hone and Ultegra
triples probably available on new models by the end of the
year. Barcons? They're cheaper than brifteurs. Touring-style
frames? Many manufacturers of road bikes have at least one
nominal tourer with features like rack mounts and slack
geometry. Trek is notable for a very nice tourer from a widely-
available brand. Several makers specialize in touring frames
to a greater or lesser extent. There probably isn't a North
American city with population > 1 million that doesn't have
a resident custom framebuilder.

The mountain-bike stuff like rear derailleurs and cassettes
translates quite effectively to touring bikes. A current XT
rear derailleur mated to a low-end Hyperglide cluster and XT
hub built into a 36-spoke wheel is probably the best
combination of price, performance, and durability ever
available on any touring bike at any time.

So what's missing?
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Gecwhite]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> In article <27158-4079996D-64@storefull-
> 3177.bay.webtv.net>,
>[email protected] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:
>
> > Deore started as a quality (for those days) touring
> > group. Since the earliest ATB's didn't have componentry
> > of their own, they used Touring parts, and the early
> > frame geometry was actually built to accommodate
> > it.
> >
> > Eventually, ATB componentry and frames became a separate
> > species unto itself. And the Deore line became dedicated
> > to it's adopted new species. (and the tourist was once
> > again left behind to rot).
>
> I keep hearing this from tourists in this newsgroup. Now,
> I'm no randonneur, but I've been known to taunt them and
> encourage them to build fixies and other stuff.
>
> So, what exactly do you think is missing, componentry-
> wise, from the tourist arsenal?
>
> Canti brakes? Widely available. long-cage rear
> derailleurs? Your choice of Deore, Deore LX, or Deore XT.
> gear clusters? Some very good touring choices in Shimano's
> stock road and mountain clusters, or get Sheldon to set up
> a Century Special for you. Good triples? Too many to
> choose from. Your choice of square-taper or ISIS BBs; for
> triples with Hollowtech II, tourists will have to
> temporarily settle for XT with 4-bolt and look for custom
> rings; Hone and Ultegra triples probably available on new
> models by the end of the year. Barcons? They're cheaper
> than brifteurs. Touring-style frames? Many manufacturers
> of road bikes have at least one nominal tourer with
> features like rack mounts and slack geometry. Trek is
> notable for a very nice tourer from a widely-available
> brand. Several makers specialize in touring frames to a
> greater or lesser extent. There probably isn't a North
> American city with population > 1 million that doesn't
> have a resident custom framebuilder.
>
> The mountain-bike stuff like rear derailleurs and
> cassettes translates quite effectively to touring bikes. A
> current XT rear derailleur mated to a low-end Hyperglide
> cluster and XT hub built into a 36-spoke wheel is probably
> the best combination of price, performance, and durability
> ever available on any touring bike at any time.
>
> So what's missing?

Nothing -- you're pretty much on the mark. I've done it all
with new stuff, and it works better than the old stuff. The
only thing "missing," as noted in this thread, is the 1/2-
step front. But that is almost irrelevent since most
cyclists would have no clue how to use a
1/2-step even if it bit them in the legs. Besides, there is
enough cogs in the rear nowadays to relegate the 1/2-step
to be of only marginal benefit at best, and again, most
folks won't miss it one bit. What's missing, I guess, is
the Stuart Smalley affirmation of the tourist by the
manufacturers. They just want to hear the words "you're
important." They need your love.

Thanks, A Tourist

http://home.hawaii.rr.com/snlcn/franken/stuart.html

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says... <snip>>
> So what's missing?
>
STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
derailleurs.

(I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I like)

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Bruce Graham wrote:

> In article <rcousine-
> [email protected]>, [email protected]
> says... <snip>>
>> So what's missing?
>>
> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> derailleurs.
>
> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I like)

What's wrong with cantilevers? They provide more than enough
braking power, and better fender clearance than V-brakes.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then
suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night,
the ice weasels come." --Matt Groening

 

[Jeff Wills]

[email protected] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Deore started as a quality (for those days) touring group.
> Since the earliest ATB's didn't have componentry of their
> own, they used Touring parts, and the early frame geometry
> was actually built to accommodate
> it.
>
> Eventually, ATB componentry and frames became a separate
> species unto itself. And the Deore line became dedicated
> to it's adopted new species. (and the tourist was once
> again left behind to rot).
>

True, the *original* Deore was dedicated to touring- but
that was before there were any dedicated mountain bike
groups. The OP specified "early '90's", by which time
Deore and Deore XT (LX, DX, etc.) had become mountain
bike-specific.

Here's the 1982 specs and pictures, thanks to Sheldon:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/pages/26.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/pages/27.html

FWIW: I had one of those original Deore cranksets on a
Schwinn Superior many years ago, complete with the DynaDrive
platform pedals. Darn good pedals for my big feet.

Jeff

 

[Gwhite]

Bruce Graham <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <rcousine-
> [email protected]>, [email protected]
> says... <snip>>
> > So what's missing?
> >
> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> derailleurs.
>
> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I like)

That's fine, but remember that in the so-called glory days
of touring, "they" didn't have brifters. Thus there is no
net loss in that sense. Shimano's modern bar-end shifters
are better than the old SunTour bar-cons, although they
were nice.

Cantilevers work fine and I think one can still get the Dia-
Compe road levers designed to work with them.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bruce Graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <rcousine-
> [email protected]>, [email protected]
> says... <snip>>
> > So what's missing?
> >
> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> derailleurs.
>
> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I like)

Behold the Travel Agent:

http://www.cambriabike.com/brakes/travel_agent_wadjuster.htm

$20. 3 colour options. Fast shipping.

http://www.cambriabike.com/brakes/brake_levers_cblset.htm

The great thing about cycling is that just about every
reasonable combination of equipment (and several highly
unreasonable ones) has an adapter available for it.

Want to use a 1" fork in your 1-1/8" steering head? CK
Devolution:

http://chrisking.com/headsets/hds_devo.html

Need to use Dyna Drive Cranks with standard pedals?
Shimano adapters:

http://loosescrews.com/index.cgi?d=single&c=Pedal&sc=Adapte-
rs&tc=&item_id =SH-1399901&id=745049630509

Share & Enjoy,

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> In article
> <[email protected]>, Bruce
> Graham <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article <rcousine-
> > [email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says... <snip>>
> > > So what's missing?
> > >
> > STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> > derailleurs.
> >
> > (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what
> > I like)
>
> Behold the Travel Agent:
>
> http://www.cambriabike.com/brakes/travel_agent_wadju-
> ster.htm
>
> $20. 3 colour options. Fast shipping.
>
> http://www.cambriabike.com/brakes/brake_levers_cblset.htm
>
> The great thing about cycling is that just about every
> reasonable combination of equipment (and several highly
> unreasonable ones) has an adapter available for it.
>
> Want to use a 1" fork in your 1-1/8" steering head? CK
> Devolution:
>
> http://chrisking.com/headsets/hds_devo.html
>
> Need to use Dyna Drive Cranks with standard pedals?
> Shimano adapters:
>
> http://loosescrews.com/index.cgi?d=single&c=Pedal&sc=Adap-
> ters&tc=&item_id =SH-1399901&id=745049630509
>
> Share & Enjoy,
>
>
Yeah, I think the travel agent is a design that shows there
is a need for a proper solution rather than an adapter. I'm
happier with my Tektro mini-V's than when I had my cantis.
Maybe I was just thick when it came to setting them up but I
read Sheldon's stuff and tried about three different types
of pad. They were no better when I got the bikes new. I do
find the 75mm mini-V's have much more power although they
have marginal clearance.

My wife has the same model bike as myself and she demands
good braking for long twisty loaded descents, with low
finger power. I also appreciate that. We lived with Shimano
cantis for five years and changed last year after wet
descents on a New Zealand tour (not far away for us).

Also I have the RSX front derailleur, which matches the 26-36-
46 chainrings and the indexed left brifter (no trimming). It
is a cheap, rattly, ugly device which I don't believe has a
modern equivalent if I need to replace it, but so far it
still works pretty much the same as when new.

Bruce

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Bruce Graham wrote:
>
> > In article <rcousine-
> > [email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says... <snip>>
> >> So what's missing?
> >>
> > STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> > derailleurs.
> >
> > (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what
> > I like)
>
> What's wrong with cantilevers? They provide more than
> enough braking power, and better fender clearance than
> V-brakes.
>
>
Power is seductive. More is nicer for me (I explain in
another post).

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

[email protected] wrote:

> Bruce Graham <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> In article <rcousine-
>> [email protected]>, [email protected]
>> says... <snip>>
>>> So what's missing?
>>>
>> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
>> derailleurs.
>>
>> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what
>> I like)
>
> That's fine, but remember that in the so-called glory days
> of touring, "they" didn't have brifters. Thus there is no
> net loss in that sense. Shimano's modern bar-end shifters
> are better than the old SunTour bar-cons, although they
> were nice.
>
> Cantilevers work fine and I think one can still get the
> Dia-Compe road levers designed to work with them.

You must be thinking of V-brakes; cantilevers work fine with
regular road levers.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Bruce Graham wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> Bruce Graham wrote:
>>
>>> In article <rcousine-
>>> [email protected]>, [email protected]
>>> says... <snip>>
>>>> So what's missing?
>>>>
>>> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
>>> derailleurs.
>>>
>>> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what
>>> I like)
>>
>> What's wrong with cantilevers? They provide more than
>> enough braking power, and better fender clearance than
>> V-brakes.
>>
> Power is seductive. More is nicer for me (I explain in
> another post).

Perhaps you didn't have good cantilevers, or perhaps the
straddle cable was too long, giving you too little
mechanical advantage (remember, cantis have adjustable
mechanical advantage!). I have bikes with both cantis and
with v-brakes, and I find the difference fairly
insignificant if the cantis are set up well. On both I can
lift my rear wheel with quite light application of the
front brake, and both work fine when descending wet hills
with panniers.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

 

[Russell Seaton]

> Also I have the RSX front derailleur,...It is a cheap,
> rattly, ugly device which I don't believe has a modern
> equivalent if I need to replace it, but so far it still
> works pretty much the same as when new.

Which just goes to show that the equipment is very secondary
to bike touring. On all my loaded tours I never really cared
too much about the bike other than it kept going. My best
recommendation for touring equipment is given to the
products I never even have to think about while touring.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Russell Seaton) wrote:

> > Also I have the RSX front derailleur,...It is a cheap,
> > rattly, ugly device which I don't believe has a modern
> > equivalent if I need to replace it, but so far it still
> > works pretty much the same as when new.
>
> Which just goes to show that the equipment is very
> secondary to bike touring. On all my loaded tours I never
> really cared too much about the bike other than it kept
> going. My best recommendation for touring equipment is
> given to the products I never even have to think about
> while touring.

Fundamentally, this is a great point.

I have all kinds of fun bikes kicking around, from my racer
to my commuter, but if I had to go on a long tour tomorrow,
I'd have no doubt which bike to use.

I'd borrow back the 20-year-old Mikado from my father. Six
speeds at the rear, half-step plus triple at the front,
friction shifting, canti brakes, 27" wheels, and lots of
mounting points for racks.

Who needs to shift quickly on a touring bike? All you need
is sufficient range.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Gwhite]

Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Bruce Graham <[email protected]> wrote in
> > message news:<[email protected]
> > t.com.au>...
> >> In article <rcousine-
> >> [email protected]>, [email protected]
> >> says... <snip>>
> >>> So what's missing?
> >>>
> >> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> >> derailleurs.
> >>
> >> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I
> >> like)
> >
> > That's fine, but remember that in the so-called glory
> > days of touring, "they" didn't have brifters. Thus there
> > is no net loss in that sense. Shimano's modern bar-end
> > shifters are better than the old SunTour bar-cons,
> > although they were nice.
> >
> > Cantilevers work fine and I think one can still get the
> > Dia-Compe road levers designed to work with them.
>
> You must be thinking of V-brakes; cantilevers work fine
> with regular road levers.

Actually no. Yes "regular" levers are okay with cantilevers
-- I too have used them. But there is a Dia-Compe set
specifically designed for cantilevers. I don't know what the
mechanical advantage difference of the two styles. Given
that "regular" levers are okay, there probably isn't a huge
difference.

There are the Dia-Compe 287V Brake Levers specific for v-
brakes. The "plain" 287 levers are for canti's. I don't know
who sells them.

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Bruce Graham wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >> Bruce Graham wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <rcousine-
> >>> [email protected]>, [email protected]
> >>> says... <snip>>
> >>>> So what's missing?
> >>>>
> >>> STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
> >>> derailleurs.
> >>>
> >>> (I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I
> >>> like)
> >>
> >> What's wrong with cantilevers? They provide more than
> >> enough braking power, and better fender clearance than
> >> V-brakes.
> >>
> > Power is seductive. More is nicer for me (I explain in
> > another post).
>
> Perhaps you didn't have good cantilevers, or perhaps the
> straddle cable was too long, giving you too little
> mechanical advantage (remember, cantis have adjustable
> mechanical advantage!). I have bikes with both cantis and
> with v-brakes, and I find the difference fairly
> insignificant if the cantis are set up well. On both I can
> lift my rear wheel with quite light application of the
> front brake, and both work fine when descending wet hills
> with panniers.
>
>
The bike came with Shimano STX cantis and I had the straddle
cable set up with the "official" angle as per the little
indicator on the round anchor. I never did experiment with a
separate shorter straddle cable, but the boss bearings were
very wobbly by the time I threw them out anyway (12,000 km).

 

[Dianne_1234]

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 08:42:14 +1000, Bruce Graham
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says... <snip>>
>> So what's missing?
>>
>STI shifters matched to V brakes and mountain front
>derailleurs.
>
>(I know STI and tourism is heresy, but I know what I like)

I know I'm not supposed to say simply "me too", but Bruce
and I agree: STI is great for touring!

The only other thing missing is touring cranks. Cranks with
- 48T big ring
- Shimano-quality ramps and pins
- spacing for 9s STI
- road triple chain line
- narrow Q

Maybe Shimano will follow trends and introduce a new
"compact" 74/110 crank? Something like the old RSX, but
higher class and for 9s STI.

 

[Dianne_1234]

On 11 Apr 2004 22:08:08 -0700, [email protected] (gwhite) wrote:

>Cantilevers work fine and I think one can still get the Dia-
>Compe road levers designed to work with them.

Cantis work fine for me, even with STI.

The Dia-Compe levers I've seen for V-brakes have a rough
feel to them. Maybe it's that metal tube inside?

 

[G.T.]

dianne_1234 wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2004 22:08:08 -0700, [email protected]
> (gwhite) wrote:
>
>
>>Cantilevers work fine and I think one can still get the
>>Dia-Compe road levers designed to work with them.
>
>
> Cantis work fine for me, even with STI.
>
> The Dia-Compe levers I've seen for V-brakes have a rough
> feel to them. Maybe it's that metal tube inside?

Mine feel fine.

Greg

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Bruce Graham wrote:

> The bike came with Shimano STX cantis and I had the
> straddle cable set up with the "official" angle as per the
> little indicator on the round anchor. I never did
> experiment with a separate shorter straddle cable, but the
> boss bearings were very wobbly by the time I threw them
> out anyway (12,000 km).

That's too bad. Changing the brake pads can make a
difference too. I've heard the stock Shimano pads are pretty
crappy. I can't verify that from experience, but I know that
the pads that came with my Avid Shorties were quite inferior
to the salmon Koolstop pads I've replaced them with. Not
only has my stopping power greatly improved, but I'm no
longer plagued with squeaky brakes and fork shudder.
(They're still a bit squeaky on occasion, but it's no longer
the constant ear-splitting squeal that it was.)

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

 

[A Muzi]

>>Cantilevers work fine and I think one can still get the
Dia-Compe road
>>levers designed to work with them.

> On 11 Apr 2004 22:08:08 -0700, [email protected] (gwhite)
> wrote: Cantis work fine for me, even with STI.

dianne_1234 wrote:
> The Dia-Compe levers I've seen for V-brakes have a rough
> feel to them. Maybe it's that metal tube inside?

DiaCompe aero levers use a unique ferrule. We commonly see
these set up without one of those and indeed they do feel
terrible. The proper ferrule is rounded and floats against a
depression in the casting. It was done that way so the
casing can be routed to either side or through a handlebar.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971