touring gears : more questions



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S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
Peter Chisholm wrote:

> I assume worst case in the worst place for loaded tourers...so I like the friction option of
> shimano bar-ends...so that you don't get stranded...But if the Campagnolo ones work , and they are
> very simple and even overhaul-able, then they work fine...

I can't imagine any failure mode that would leave someone "stranded" with index-only shifters that
wouldn't also strand a person with frictionable shifters.

Moderate derailer damage might make shifting a bit more difficult, or might even limit the number of
usable gears to some extent, but neither of these eventualities would "strand" a rider.

In the case of major derailer damage, the friction option wouldn't help any more than twiddling with
the limit stops and cable adjusting barrel.

Sheldon "Friction Isn't Necessary" Brown +--------------------------------------------+
| Life is what happens to you, | while you're busy making other plans. | --John Lennon |
+--------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
W

Walter Mitty

Guest
[email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
news:[email protected] he conjectured that:

> Walter-<< It doesn't seem to be possible to move to a chorus long cage 9 Spd (supply - did they
> even ever exist?) :
>
> Sure, easy to find...
>
> << so I've been advised to go for a Campagnolo racer T rear derailleur instead
>
> That'll work also altho the Chorus 'long cage' has a longer cage. As does Centaur...
>

Is it just me or are Campagnolo very poor at pitching different products for those of us who are not
trained bike technicions. Up until recently I'd never even heard of racing-t : and certainly never
found it on their web page.And on their web page there is no such thing as a chorus 9 spd long cage.

--
Walter Mitty.
 
M

M-Gineering Imp

Guest
Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
> Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
> > I assume worst case in the worst place for loaded tourers...so I like the friction option of
> > shimano bar-ends...so that you don't get stranded...But if the Campagnolo ones work , and they
> > are very simple and even overhaul-able, then they work fine...
>
> I can't imagine any failure mode that would leave someone "stranded" with index-only shifters that
> wouldn't also strand a person with frictionable shifters.

Depends on where you are. In some countries you are lucky to find 'a derailleur', asking it to be
compatible with Shimano indexing is to much. In friction mode, you can connect your shifters to any
derailleur.

--
Marten
 
W

Walter Mitty

Guest
Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
news:[email protected] he conjectured that:

>
> I can't imagine any failure mode that would leave someone "stranded" with index-only shifters that
> wouldn't also strand a person with frictionable shifters.
>
> Moderate derailer damage might make shifting a bit more difficult, or might even limit the number
> of usable gears to some extent, but neither of these eventualities would "strand" a rider.
>
> In the case of major derailer damage, the friction option wouldn't help any more than twiddling
> with the limit stops and cable adjusting barrel.
>

I'm taking this line following your comments. For some reason I always considered the index shifters
too clever for their own good, but at the end of the day my Shimano bar-ends have funtioned with not
a problem for 8 years or so. I expect more from the campag ergopowers.

--
Walter Mitty.
 
P

Precious Pup

Guest
Sheldon Brown wrote:
>

> > (4) Do campag do a 9 sp bar end shifter that can also work in friction mode? Is it current
> > product range (I found nothing on their web site).
>
> No, that's a Shimano patent.

That is interesting considering that SunTour BarEnds had indexing with a friction option. There is
nothing to prevent Campag from including a friction option other than they just don't want to do it.
 
S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
Someone asked:

>>>(4) Do campag do a 9 sp bar end shifter that can also work in friction mode? Is it current
>>> product range (I found nothing on their web site).

I replied:

>>No, that's a Shimano patent.

An anonymous poster wrote:

> That is interesting considering that SunTour BarEnds had indexing with a friction option.

Yes, SunTour did offer that for a while. They were sued by Shimano and lost.

> There is nothing to prevent Campag from including a friction option other than they just don't
> want to do it.

Nothing but the law.

Sheldon "Believe It Or Not" Brown +------------------------------------------------------------+
| It is one thing to show a man that he is in an error, | and another to put him in possession of
| truth. | --John Locke |
+------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
> [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
> news:[email protected] he conjectured that:
>
> > Walter-<< It doesn't seem to be possible to move to a chorus long cage 9 Spd (supply - did they
> > even ever exist?) :
> >
> > Sure, easy to find...
> >
> > << so I've been advised to go for a Campagnolo racer T rear derailleur instead
> >
> > That'll work also altho the Chorus 'long cage' has a longer cage. As does Centaur...

"Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Is it just me or are Campagnolo very poor at pitching different products for those of us who are
> not trained bike technicions. Up until recently I'd never even heard of racing-t : and certainly
> never found it on their web page.And on their web page there is no such thing as a chorus 9 spd
> long cage.

You need to read between the lines or just walk into your neighborhood competent LBS. The one you
want says "Chorus Ten Speed" on the outer body plate and is 92mm between pulleys. It is an excellent
wide range nine derailleur and our preferred derailleur for Phil Wood hub /SRAM cassette nine speed
tandems with Ergo levers and similar applications

Racing-T was discontinued when the Record Triple crank was introduced. Racing-T equipment is still
very available here in the USA.

Campagnolo is much smaller in total revenue than many of their US distributors. They sell everything
they make. There is really not much effort to expand their markets or even to make buying their
equipment simple.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
> > > (4) Do campag do a 9 sp bar end shifter that can also work in friction mode? Is it current
> > > product range (I found nothing on their web site).

> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > No, that's a Shimano patent.

"Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> That is interesting considering that SunTour BarEnds had indexing with a friction option. There
> is nothing to prevent Campag from including a friction option other than they just don't want
> to do it.

Yes I agree they probably could work around Shimano's design if they thought it was important.
The Suntour unit used a different mechanism than Shimano, Accu-7 and F-7, a slightly detented
seven format.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
P

Precious Pup

Guest
Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
> Someone asked:
>
> >>>(4) Do campag do a 9 sp bar end shifter that can also work in friction mode? Is it current
> >>> product range (I found nothing on their web site).
>
> I replied:
>
> >>No, that's a Shimano patent.
>
> An anonymous poster wrote:
>
> > That is interesting considering that SunTour BarEnds had indexing with a friction option.
>
> Yes, SunTour did offer that for a while. They were sued by Shimano and lost.
>
> > There is nothing to prevent Campag from including a friction option other than they just don't
> > want to do it.
>
> Nothing but the law.
>
> Sheldon "Believe It Or Not" Brown

I didn't know that. But I'll have to agree with Mr. Muzi and say that they could get "around" the
patent if they *wanted* to badly enough. There are armies of folks (a lot of them lawyers) that do
nothing but figure out how to do such things.
 
M

Mike Demicco

Guest
On Wed, 28 May 2003 17:08:19 -0400, Sheldon Brown wrote:

> Someone asked:

>> That is interesting considering that SunTour BarEnds had indexing with a friction option.
>
> Yes, SunTour did offer that for a while. They were sued by Shimano and lost.

Did this patent only apply to bar end shifters or to other shifters too
(e.g., downtube, thumbshifters)?

--
Mike DeMicco <[email protected]
 
D

David L. Johnso

Guest
On Tue, 27 May 2003 11:12:01 +0000, Michel Gagnon wrote:

> The 9-speed chain is "less durable" than the 7-8 speed one. But I don't stand on my pedals and I
> use full fenders... and have done so far 7000 km with the same chain and NO stretch.

Amazing how people have managed to stay on the bike with these flimsy 9-speed chains. There is
nothing about a 9-speed chain that makes it less long-lasting than 8-speed. Yes, the plates are
thinner, but that is not where a chain wears out. For me, 9-speed chains last just as long as
8-speed did, not better, but not worse.

> In theory, there are different chainrings for Shimano 7/8 speed and 9-speed setups. However,
> Sheldon has written a few times that in practice, 8-speed cranks and chainwheels can be used on a
> 9-speed bike.

I did have trouble using cheapo 7-speed chainrings with 9-speed. But decent quality seem to
work fine.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how. _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |
 
D

David L. Johnso

Guest
On Tue, 27 May 2003 09:00:13 +0000, Mike S. wrote:

> Silly question: why the heck do you want to run Campy on a touring bike? At least here in the US,
> Campy is going to be harder to find in outer BFE, more expensive when you do find it, and doesn't
> do what you want it to.

On the other hand, the levers are repairable, so you can replace a $3 part (the g-springs)
before the tour, rather than worry whether a $200 set of levers will fail and have to be
replaced in Wyoming.

Also, some people prefer the size and/or action of a Campy shifter. I know I do. Granted, the
Shimano hub is probably better, but with 9-speed you can use that hub.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're _`\(,_ | still a rat. --Lilly
Tomlin (_)/ (_) |
 
D

David L. Johnso

Guest
On Tue, 27 May 2003 21:15:12 +0200, Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:

> (for the rear, that is). There is, however, something else to consider. Ergo and STI levers are
> more sensitive to accidentally shifting when your bike falls.

If the bike falls, many things can happen. Shifting from one gear to the next is not high on the
list of possible problems.

> The blows to these expensive components can be quite hard if you have a lot of luggage. Although I
> don't have experience with it, I think the STI shifters are most sensitive, since the brake levers
> can be moved
sideways.

Here you are talking about breakage. The most breakage-vulnerable part is the rider. Next are the
wheels, then the frame. Again, worrying about breaking the shifter is down in the noise if you
break your arm.

> The Ergo brake levers should theoretically protect the shifter somewhat, but I still don't think
> they're ideal. Perhaps this is the reason many experienced long-distance bikers prefer down tube
> shifters, because bar end shifters aren't really immune to accidental shifting either.

And downtube shifters are? Really experienced tourists, in my experience, tend to use the same bike
for many years. That would mean that many use downtube shifters, and lots of others use bar-ends,
because that was what was available when they bought the bike.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all _`\(,_ | mysteries, and all
knowledge; and though I have all faith, so (_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not
charity, I am nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]
 
W

Walter Mitty

Guest
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
news:[email protected] he conjectured that:

>> [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
>> news:[email protected] he conjectured that:
>>
>> > Walter-<< It doesn't seem to be possible to move to a chorus long cage 9 Spd (supply - did they
>> > even ever exist?) :
>> >
>> > Sure, easy to find...
>> >
>> > << so I've been advised to go for a Campagnolo racer T rear derailleur instead
>> >
>> > That'll work also altho the Chorus 'long cage' has a longer cage. As does Centaur...
>
>
> "Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Is it just me or are Campagnolo very poor at pitching different products for those of us who are
>> not trained bike technicions. Up until recently I'd never even heard of racing-t : and certainly
>> never found it on their web page.And on their web page there is no such thing as a chorus 9 spd
>> long cage.
>
> You need to read between the lines or just walk into your neighborhood competent LBS. The one you
> want says "Chorus Ten Speed" on the outer body plate and is 92mm between pulleys. It is an
> excellent wide range nine derailleur and our preferred derailleur for Phil Wood hub /SRAM cassette
> nine speed tandems with Ergo levers and similar applications
>

The chorus 10 speed long cage can work with 9mm kit??

--
Walter Mitty.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
> >> > Walter-<< It doesn't seem to be possible to move to a chorus long cage 9 Spd (supply - did
> >> > they even ever exist?) :

> >> [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
> >> news:[email protected] he conjectured that:
> >> > Sure, easy to find...

(Walter)> >> > << so I've been advised to go for a
> >> > Campagnolo racer T rear derailleur instead

(Peter)> >> > That'll work also altho the Chorus 'long cage' has a longer cage.
> >> > As does Centaur...

> > "Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> Is it just me or are Campagnolo very poor at pitching different products for those of us who
> >> are not trained bike technicions. Up until recently I'd never even heard of racing-t : and
> >> certainly never found it on their web page.And on their web page there is no such thing as a
> >> chorus 9 spd long cage.

<[email protected]> in news:[email protected] conjectured that:
> > You need to read between the lines or just walk into your neighborhood competent LBS. The one
> > you want says "Chorus Ten Speed" on the outer body plate and is 92mm between pulleys. It is an
> > excellent wide range nine derailleur and our preferred derailleur for Phil Wood hub /SRAM
> > cassette nine speed tandems with Ergo levers and similar applications

"Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> The chorus 10 speed long cage can work with 9mm kit??

of course!
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
M

Mike S.

Guest
> Silly question: why the heck do you want to run Campy on a touring bike?
At
> > least here in the US, Campy is going to be harder to find in outer BFE,
more
> > expensive when you do find it, and doesn't do what you want it to.
>
> On the other hand, the levers are repairable, so you can replace a $3 part (the g-springs) before
> the tour, rather than worry whether a $200 set of levers will fail and have to be replaced in
> Wyoming.
>
See my point about sitting around in outer BFE while waiting for someone to overnight you a part.
I'd bet that most of the shops in small towns don't even know how to spell Campagnolo, much less
work on it!

> Also, some people prefer the size and/or action of a Campy shifter. I know I do. Granted, the
> Shimano hub is probably better, but with 9-speed you can use that hub.
>
>
I even like Campy's feel better, but if the criteria is loaded touring in outer BFE, then I'm either
going to learn how to do everything possible to the bike, or run something that if I don't know how
to fix it, someone else will. Campy doesn't fall into the "everyone knows how to work on it"
category. Shimano, unfortunately, has a lock on most of the mtn bike component business, and
therefore, a lock on most of the parts that a loaded touring rig's going to use.

If the OP is comfortable with the downsides of Campy, I'd say: "go for it."

Mike
 
M

M-Gineering Imp

Guest
"David L. Johnson" wrote: Really experienced tourists, in my experience,
> tend to use the same bike for many years. That would mean that many use downtube shifters, and
> lots of others use bar-ends, because that was what was available when they bought the bike.
>
On a touring bike bar-ends are the superior solution. Tourists shift a lot more than racers. With
ergo's you wear out your left thumb and miss a lot of downshifst at the end of the day, with Shimano
chainrub and wristache drives you mad. Bar-cons you just give a whack while holding a sandwich

--
Marten
 
W

Walter Mitty

Guest
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
news:[email protected] he conjectured that:

>
> "Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> The chorus 10 speed long cage can work with 9mm kit??
>
> of course!
> --
> Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
>
>

Including a shimano XT hub and 9 spd cassette? I'd assumed that 10 speed stuff would have a narrower
gauge etc which would be too precise for 9 spd chain and block.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
> > "Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> The chorus 10 speed long cage can work with 9mm kit??

> "A Muzi" <[email protected]> brightened my day with his incisive wit when in
> news:[email protected] he conjectured that:
> > of course!

"Walter Mitty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Including a shimano XT hub and 9 spd cassette? I'd assumed that 10 speed stuff would have a
> narrower gauge etc which would be too precise for 9 spd chain and block.

Tandems ( for which there's no snappy ten speed solution) around here run Phil Wood hubs with SRAM
cassettes and the long (92mm) Chorus, Ergo Nine. Sharp, dependable, crisp. No downside. And you get
the excellent front response as a bonus! (BTW SRAM cassettes are underrated IMHO.. Nice product.)

As Sheldon often notes, derailleurs do not care which shifter you choose as long as it's the same
brand. An XT rear changer works fine with an SIS-Five speed top shifter and about as well as it does
with a nine STi shifter. Your current Campagnolo Chorus rear will shift in an Ergo Eight, Nine or
Ten system as long as the shifter and cassette match.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
D

David L. Johnso

Guest
On Wed, 28 May 2003 23:23:52 +0000, Mike S. wrote:

>> On the other hand, the levers are repairable, so you can replace a $3 part (the g-springs) before
>> the tour, rather than worry whether a $200 set of levers will fail and have to be replaced in
>> Wyoming.
>>
> See my point about sitting around in outer BFE while waiting for someone to overnight you a part.

See my point about replacing the g-springs (the only part likely to wear out) before the tour.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt
 
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