Touring wheelset...



P

PatC

Guest
I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
more.

I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
heavy.)

I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
end hubs?

I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
I consider rim width?

Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the zillion questions!
 
PatC wrote:
> I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
> on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
> get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
> more.
>
> I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
> encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
> loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
> heavy.)
>
> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
> Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
> should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
> end hubs?
>
> I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
> popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
> rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
> ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
> I consider rim width?
>
> Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
> White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
> great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.
>


Rims: Get the A719 rather than the MA3; much better rim. I have both,
no problems with either, but the A719 is much stronger.

Hubs: Get the XT, better seals than the LX. Phil Wood hubs are
wonderful, but will kill your budget; the rear FSC hub is about what
your total budget for the project is set at. But the Phil's do last
and are rather worry free. I have them on both my touring bikes, one
set is 26 years old, just like new.

Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
range of tires you want without issues.

Builder: as long as they understand tension and stress relieving, does
not matter if they are local or not. Talk to the shops, see how
knowledgeable their builder(s) are; if they look puzzled when asking if
they stress relieve the wheels, turn around and walk away.

- rick
 
"PatC" wrote:
> If I can
> get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
> more.


With rare exception, "lighter" and "more durable" are mutually exclusive
terms.

> I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
> encounter some rough tar and chip.
>
> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
> Shimano LX hubs.


LX hubs have 135mm wide hubs. What is the rear spacing of your frame? Most
road bikes have 130mm dropout spacing.

I wouldn't recommend MA3 rims for your application. Ideally, you'd want a
36-hole, socketed (sometimes called double-eyelet), non-anodized,
non-welded, non-machined sidewall rim of reasonable weight. Unfortunately,
there aren't many (any?) rims that meet those requirements.

Art Harris
 
Rick wrote:
> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
> range of tires you want without issues.


Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

-Mike
 
Arthur Harris wrote:
> "PatC" wrote:
>
>>If I can
>>get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
>>more.

>
>
> With rare exception, "lighter" and "more durable" are mutually exclusive
> terms.
>
>
>>I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
>>encounter some rough tar and chip.
>>
>>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
>>Shimano LX hubs.

>
>
> LX hubs have 135mm wide hubs. What is the rear spacing of your frame? Most
> road bikes have 130mm dropout spacing.
>
> I wouldn't recommend MA3 rims for your application. Ideally, you'd want a
> 36-hole, socketed (sometimes called double-eyelet), non-anodized,
> non-welded, non-machined sidewall rim of reasonable weight. Unfortunately,
> there aren't many (any?) rims that meet those requirements.
>
> Art Harris
>
>


art, please don't propagate un-truths.

1. anodizing is beneficial for a bike that strays outside palo alto. it
prevents corrosion and pitting. preventing corrosion & pitting prevents
fatigue.

2. welding produces a stronger rim. it also means a rim that is better
balanced. and that may help with shimmy.

3. machined rims allow fully effective braking from day one. having to
wear the brake blocks to fit the rim is stupid & dangerous. the often
propagated story that they are in some way thinner is complete garbage -
the blank rims are extruded with excess material so the post-machined
thickness is correct for that application.
 
>
> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
> Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
> should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
> end hubs?


Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
spokes and not from the rims. Yes, there are bad rims and and there
are good rims, but it's all in the building techniques and choosing the
right hoops and not the rejects!

Having said that, you should pay a lot of attention in the building
technique of the rear wheel, since this is actually a weaker wheel than
the front to begin with due to the fact that it is dished to
accommodate the cassette. Therefore, dished wheels are often tensioned
differently (one side higher than the other). With that knowledge in
mind, you should not be shy to spend good money on good quality spokes.
My favourite would be Sapim spokes, specifically for your purpose the
Sapim Strong and the Sapim Laser. These I would recommend to the heavy
duty tourers and people that are over 200lbs. Lace the Sapim Strong on
the higher tension side and the Laser on the lesser tension side. This
creates an exceptionally well balanced and stronger rear wheel, putting
more metal to where the most stresses are. Basic 3 cross lacing is
fine and Mavic MA3 are good rims. LX hubs are all you need or Deore
are fine too. Most wheel builders do not do this type of wheel
building by the way and some will refuse it because it's something they
don't understand-- using 2 kinds of spokes which will inherently
increase the cost of the wheel build and the complexity and not to
mention that most LBS do not like stocking Sapim.
Building the front, however, will not be so critical. Use of DT or
Wheelsmith spokes would be fine, or stay with Sapim Laser if you wish.
But you know, if you buy modest hubs and modest rims and invest in good
Sapim butted spokes, you'll have a bombproof set of wheels that will
meet your budget and last.

Most of us know of Sapim by their famous aero super strong spokes, the
Sapim CX-Ray laced on some of the world's most expensive carbon tubular
wheelsets.

Sapim website:

http://www.sapim.be

Hope this helps.

David.
 
none <[email protected]> wrote in news:KBzZe.7822$L15.4808@trndny01:

> Rick wrote:
>> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
>> range of tires you want without issues.

>
> Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?
>
> -Mike


This is where I get confused. Good question. I saw some charts that
reference tire width to rim width, but it gets confusing on how the rim
width is measured. Hmmm....
 
"Arthur Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:eek:%yZe.14749$i%[email protected]:

> "PatC" wrote:
>> If I can
>> get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably
>> spend more.

>
> With rare exception, "lighter" and "more durable" are mutually
> exclusive terms.
>
>> I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but
>> do encounter some rough tar and chip.
>>
>> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
>> Shimano LX hubs.

>
> LX hubs have 135mm wide hubs. What is the rear spacing of your frame?
> Most road bikes have 130mm dropout spacing.
>
> I wouldn't recommend MA3 rims for your application. Ideally, you'd
> want a 36-hole, socketed (sometimes called double-eyelet),
> non-anodized, non-welded, non-machined sidewall rim of reasonable
> weight. Unfortunately, there aren't many (any?) rims that meet those
> requirements.
>
> Art Harris
>
>


My frame is a Surly Long Haul Trucker, which is a 135mm width. I assume
they set it this wide for mountain bike hubs.

I thought the MA3 has double eyelets???
 
none wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
>> range of tires you want without issues.

>
> Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?


A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though. For
narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of sockets)
means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel, IMO.

~PB
 
PatC wrote:

> I thought the MA3 has double eyelets???


It definitely doesn't have sockets. It's predecessor, the MA2, did, though.

~PB
 
"PatC" wrote:
> I thought the MA3 has double eyelets???


No, the MA-2 had double-eyelets, not the MA-3.

Art Harris
 
David wrote:
>>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
>>Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
>>should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
>>end hubs?

>
>
> Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
> spokes and not from the rims.


90%? really? where did you get that number from???

> Yes, there are bad rims and and there
> are good rims, but it's all in the building techniques and choosing the
> right hoops and not the rejects!
>
> Having said that, you should pay a lot of attention in the building
> technique of the rear wheel, since this is actually a weaker wheel than
> the front to begin with due to the fact that it is dished to
> accommodate the cassette. Therefore, dished wheels are often tensioned
> differently (one side higher than the other). With that knowledge in
> mind, you should not be shy to spend good money on good quality spokes.
> My favourite would be Sapim spokes, specifically for your purpose the
> Sapim Strong and the Sapim Laser. These I would recommend to the heavy
> duty tourers and people that are over 200lbs. Lace the Sapim Strong on
> the higher tension side and the Laser on the lesser tension side. This
> creates an exceptionally well balanced and stronger rear wheel, putting
> more metal to where the most stresses are. Basic 3 cross lacing is
> fine and Mavic MA3 are good rims. LX hubs are all you need or Deore
> are fine too. Most wheel builders do not do this type of wheel
> building by the way and some will refuse it because it's something they
> don't understand-- using 2 kinds of spokes which will inherently
> increase the cost of the wheel build and the complexity and not to
> mention that most LBS do not like stocking Sapim.
> Building the front, however, will not be so critical. Use of DT or
> Wheelsmith spokes would be fine, or stay with Sapim Laser if you wish.
> But you know, if you buy modest hubs and modest rims and invest in good
> Sapim butted spokes, you'll have a bombproof set of wheels that will
> meet your budget and last.
>
> Most of us know of Sapim by their famous aero super strong spokes, the
> Sapim CX-Ray laced on some of the world's most expensive carbon tubular
> wheelsets.
>
> Sapim website:
>
> http://www.sapim.be
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> David.
 
Pete Biggs wrote:
> none wrote:
> > Rick wrote:
> >> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
> >> range of tires you want without issues.

> >
> > Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

>
> A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though. For
> narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of sockets)
> means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel, IMO.


Do you really have experience with that rim/tire config? I do. I
ride a T520 (the old designation for the A719), do thousands of miles
of commuting/touring in it. Works great. When I do change out that
wheel, it is for one based on an MA3. MA3 works fine if the wheel
build is good. Mine are good.

- rick
 
In article <[email protected]>, jim beam
<[email protected]> wrote:

> David wrote:
> >>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
> >>Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
> >>should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
> >>end hubs?

> >
> >
> > Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
> > spokes and not from the rims.

>
> 90%? really? where did you get that number from???


Jim,

Hmmmm, there was a reason why I provided the Sapim's website at the end
of the message.

If you go to the Sapim FAQ site, you will see why I derived of that
number..

Here it is again..

Sapim's website is http://www.sapim.be

David.
 
David wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, jim beam
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>David wrote:
>>
>>>>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
>>>>Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
>>>>should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
>>>>end hubs?
>>>
>>>
>>>Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
>>>spokes and not from the rims.

>>
>>90%? really? where did you get that number from???

>
>
> Jim,
>
> Hmmmm, there was a reason why I provided the Sapim's website at the end
> of the message.
>
> If you go to the Sapim FAQ site, you will see why I derived of that
> number..
>
> Here it is again..
>
> Sapim's website is http://www.sapim.be
>
> David.


hmmmm, you do not cite which page, and you didn't bother to context the
link to the 90% statement. it may have been clear to you, but not to
me. and having quickly scanned the site, i /still/ don't see a 90%
statement.

besides, do you really think a low-pro lightweight racing rim is just as
stiff as a heavy duty touring rim?
 
PatC wrote:
> I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
> on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
> get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
> more.
>
> I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
> encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
> loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
> heavy.)
>
> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
> Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
> should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
> end hubs?



STAY AWAY from MA-3 rims!! We have had roughly a dozen pull eyelets
out-POOR rims for any application.

36h LX hubs, Velocity Deep Vs, from Vecchios are in that price range.
Don't skimp on touring wheels. NO fun to get stick out there.

>
> I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
> popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
> rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
> ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
> I consider rim width?
>
> Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
> White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
> great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.
>
> Thanks in advance. Sorry for the zillion questions!
 
Pete Biggs wrote:
> none wrote:
> > Rick wrote:
> >> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
> >> range of tires you want without issues.

> >
> > Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

>
> A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though. For
> narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of sockets)
> means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel, IMO.


No they aren't I have installed 28c and even 25c tires onto A719s.
 
PatC wrote:
> I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
> on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
> get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
> more.
>
> I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
> encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
> loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
> heavy.)
>
> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
> Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
> should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
> end hubs?
>
> I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
> popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
> rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
> ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
> I consider rim width?
>
> Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
> White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
> great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.
>
> Thanks in advance. Sorry for the zillion questions!


I think a MA3 is a bit light for touring. I'd go with the A719
(T519/520). I got a pair of LX/T520 wheels for <$100 mail-order. An
uncommonly good deal, but you should be able to find a pre-built set for
<$200. Adjust the tension and stress relieve and you've got a set of
wheels as good as any custom-built.

Paselas are nice tires at a great price, but they run a little narrow.
I'd think about 32mm for touring.

It's really hard to beat LX hubs, they're probably the best hub value on
the market. They are very durable. I'd look no further.
 
Rick wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>> none wrote:
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
>>>> range of tires you want without issues.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

>>
>> A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though.
>> For narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of
>> sockets) means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel,
>> IMO.

>
> Do you really have experience with that rim/tire config? I do.


Yes I really do. Perhaps I should have wrote "IMRE" for "in my real
experience" ;-)

I have a A719 to which I fitted a Continental Ultra Gatorskin 28. It didn't
seat well and looked too narrow and "wrong". I now use a Panaracer Pasela
which actually measures about 30mm in width. I would have preferred the
next size up but am limited by the frame.

> I ride a T520 (the old designation for the A719), do thousands of miles
> of commuting/touring in it. Works great.


Perhaps the T520 is actually a bit different, or your tyre is a different
make and happens to fit better, or you just don't mind using a slightly
too-narrow tyre? I don't know but I stick by my conclusion that the rim is
best suited to 30+mm tyres. I won't say it's totally impossible to use
narrower without problems but there are more suitable rims for narrower
tyres, that's for sure.

> When I do change out that
> wheel, it is for one based on an MA3. MA3 works fine if the wheel
> build is good. Mine are good.


I accept they can be OK with some luck. Not everyone has had your luck,
even with well built wheels. Personally, I would only use one for a front
wheel since better rims can better deal with the extra spoke tension needed
for rear wheels (right side).

If budget is limited, have MA3 front and A719 or CXP33 or similar rear. The
odd looks won't be noticed if the colour is the same. That is sensible.
Using MA3 rear, or A719 with narrow tyres, is not, IMHO.

~PB
 
Pete Biggs wrote:

> > I ride a T520 (the old designation for the A719), do thousands of miles
> > of commuting/touring in it. Works great.

>
> Perhaps the T520 is actually a bit different,


No it is not. The T520 and the A719 are identical, just a change in
name.

> or your tyre is a different
> make and happens to fit better,


Of course; I use Conti TT2000 and Panaracer Pasela TG, *real* touring
tires, not the Gatorskin which, IMO, is not suitable for touring.

> or you just don't mind using a slightly
> too-narrow tyre?


I do mind, but the 28c's are plenty wide on the T520. When it goes to
the other bike it has a 32c or 35c, but that bike has limited clearance
(it is a generator hub based wheel).

> I don't know but I stick by my conclusion that the rim is
> best suited to 30+mm tyres. I won't say it's totally impossible to use
> narrower without problems but there are more suitable rims for narrower
> tyres, that's for sure.


Not a lot of really good ones for touring.

> > When I do change out that
> > wheel, it is for one based on an MA3. MA3 works fine if the wheel
> > build is good. Mine are good.

>
> I accept they can be OK with some luck. Not everyone has had your luck,
> even with well built wheels. Personally, I would only use one for a front
> wheel since better rims can better deal with the extra spoke tension needed
> for rear wheels (right side).
>
> If budget is limited, have MA3 front and A719 or CXP33 or similar rear. The
> odd looks won't be noticed if the colour is the same. That is sensible.
> Using MA3 rear, or A719 with narrow tyres, is not, IMHO.


For heavy duty, the A719 is many, many, many times better than the
CXP33. If you do not like the A719, go to the Velocity Dyad or Sun
CR18, both much better than the CXP33 for this application.

- rick
 

Similar threads