Touring wheelset...

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by PatC, Sep 25, 2005.

  1. PatC

    PatC Guest

    I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
    on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
    get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
    more.

    I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
    encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
    loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
    heavy.)

    I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    end hubs?

    I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
    popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
    rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
    ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
    I consider rim width?

    Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
    White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
    great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.

    Thanks in advance. Sorry for the zillion questions!
     
    Tags:


  2. Rick

    Rick Guest

    PatC wrote:
    > I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
    > on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
    > get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
    > more.
    >
    > I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
    > encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
    > loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
    > heavy.)
    >
    > I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    > Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    > should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    > end hubs?
    >
    > I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
    > popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
    > rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
    > ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
    > I consider rim width?
    >
    > Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
    > White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
    > great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.
    >


    Rims: Get the A719 rather than the MA3; much better rim. I have both,
    no problems with either, but the A719 is much stronger.

    Hubs: Get the XT, better seals than the LX. Phil Wood hubs are
    wonderful, but will kill your budget; the rear FSC hub is about what
    your total budget for the project is set at. But the Phil's do last
    and are rather worry free. I have them on both my touring bikes, one
    set is 26 years old, just like new.

    Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    range of tires you want without issues.

    Builder: as long as they understand tension and stress relieving, does
    not matter if they are local or not. Talk to the shops, see how
    knowledgeable their builder(s) are; if they look puzzled when asking if
    they stress relieve the wheels, turn around and walk away.

    - rick
     
  3. "PatC" wrote:
    > If I can
    > get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
    > more.


    With rare exception, "lighter" and "more durable" are mutually exclusive
    terms.

    > I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
    > encounter some rough tar and chip.
    >
    > I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    > Shimano LX hubs.


    LX hubs have 135mm wide hubs. What is the rear spacing of your frame? Most
    road bikes have 130mm dropout spacing.

    I wouldn't recommend MA3 rims for your application. Ideally, you'd want a
    36-hole, socketed (sometimes called double-eyelet), non-anodized,
    non-welded, non-machined sidewall rim of reasonable weight. Unfortunately,
    there aren't many (any?) rims that meet those requirements.

    Art Harris
     
  4. none

    none Guest

    Rick wrote:
    > Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    > range of tires you want without issues.


    Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

    -Mike
     
  5. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    Arthur Harris wrote:
    > "PatC" wrote:
    >
    >>If I can
    >>get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
    >>more.

    >
    >
    > With rare exception, "lighter" and "more durable" are mutually exclusive
    > terms.
    >
    >
    >>I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
    >>encounter some rough tar and chip.
    >>
    >>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    >>Shimano LX hubs.

    >
    >
    > LX hubs have 135mm wide hubs. What is the rear spacing of your frame? Most
    > road bikes have 130mm dropout spacing.
    >
    > I wouldn't recommend MA3 rims for your application. Ideally, you'd want a
    > 36-hole, socketed (sometimes called double-eyelet), non-anodized,
    > non-welded, non-machined sidewall rim of reasonable weight. Unfortunately,
    > there aren't many (any?) rims that meet those requirements.
    >
    > Art Harris
    >
    >


    art, please don't propagate un-truths.

    1. anodizing is beneficial for a bike that strays outside palo alto. it
    prevents corrosion and pitting. preventing corrosion & pitting prevents
    fatigue.

    2. welding produces a stronger rim. it also means a rim that is better
    balanced. and that may help with shimmy.

    3. machined rims allow fully effective braking from day one. having to
    wear the brake blocks to fit the rim is stupid & dangerous. the often
    propagated story that they are in some way thinner is complete garbage -
    the blank rims are extruded with excess material so the post-machined
    thickness is correct for that application.
     
  6. David

    David Guest

    >
    > I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    > Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    > should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    > end hubs?


    Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
    spokes and not from the rims. Yes, there are bad rims and and there
    are good rims, but it's all in the building techniques and choosing the
    right hoops and not the rejects!

    Having said that, you should pay a lot of attention in the building
    technique of the rear wheel, since this is actually a weaker wheel than
    the front to begin with due to the fact that it is dished to
    accommodate the cassette. Therefore, dished wheels are often tensioned
    differently (one side higher than the other). With that knowledge in
    mind, you should not be shy to spend good money on good quality spokes.
    My favourite would be Sapim spokes, specifically for your purpose the
    Sapim Strong and the Sapim Laser. These I would recommend to the heavy
    duty tourers and people that are over 200lbs. Lace the Sapim Strong on
    the higher tension side and the Laser on the lesser tension side. This
    creates an exceptionally well balanced and stronger rear wheel, putting
    more metal to where the most stresses are. Basic 3 cross lacing is
    fine and Mavic MA3 are good rims. LX hubs are all you need or Deore
    are fine too. Most wheel builders do not do this type of wheel
    building by the way and some will refuse it because it's something they
    don't understand-- using 2 kinds of spokes which will inherently
    increase the cost of the wheel build and the complexity and not to
    mention that most LBS do not like stocking Sapim.
    Building the front, however, will not be so critical. Use of DT or
    Wheelsmith spokes would be fine, or stay with Sapim Laser if you wish.
    But you know, if you buy modest hubs and modest rims and invest in good
    Sapim butted spokes, you'll have a bombproof set of wheels that will
    meet your budget and last.

    Most of us know of Sapim by their famous aero super strong spokes, the
    Sapim CX-Ray laced on some of the world's most expensive carbon tubular
    wheelsets.

    Sapim website:

    http://www.sapim.be

    Hope this helps.

    David.
     
  7. PatC

    PatC Guest

    none <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Rick wrote:
    >> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    >> range of tires you want without issues.

    >
    > Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?
    >
    > -Mike


    This is where I get confused. Good question. I saw some charts that
    reference tire width to rim width, but it gets confusing on how the rim
    width is measured. Hmmm....
     
  8. PatC

    PatC Guest

    "Arthur Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:eek:%yZe.14749$i%[email protected]:

    > "PatC" wrote:
    >> If I can
    >> get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably
    >> spend more.

    >
    > With rare exception, "lighter" and "more durable" are mutually
    > exclusive terms.
    >
    >> I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but
    >> do encounter some rough tar and chip.
    >>
    >> I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    >> Shimano LX hubs.

    >
    > LX hubs have 135mm wide hubs. What is the rear spacing of your frame?
    > Most road bikes have 130mm dropout spacing.
    >
    > I wouldn't recommend MA3 rims for your application. Ideally, you'd
    > want a 36-hole, socketed (sometimes called double-eyelet),
    > non-anodized, non-welded, non-machined sidewall rim of reasonable
    > weight. Unfortunately, there aren't many (any?) rims that meet those
    > requirements.
    >
    > Art Harris
    >
    >


    My frame is a Surly Long Haul Trucker, which is a 135mm width. I assume
    they set it this wide for mountain bike hubs.

    I thought the MA3 has double eyelets???
     
  9. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    none wrote:
    > Rick wrote:
    >> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    >> range of tires you want without issues.

    >
    > Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?


    A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though. For
    narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of sockets)
    means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel, IMO.

    ~PB
     
  10. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    PatC wrote:

    > I thought the MA3 has double eyelets???


    It definitely doesn't have sockets. It's predecessor, the MA2, did, though.

    ~PB
     
  11. "PatC" wrote:
    > I thought the MA3 has double eyelets???


    No, the MA-2 had double-eyelets, not the MA-3.

    Art Harris
     
  12. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    David wrote:
    >>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    >>Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    >>should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    >>end hubs?

    >
    >
    > Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
    > spokes and not from the rims.


    90%? really? where did you get that number from???

    > Yes, there are bad rims and and there
    > are good rims, but it's all in the building techniques and choosing the
    > right hoops and not the rejects!
    >
    > Having said that, you should pay a lot of attention in the building
    > technique of the rear wheel, since this is actually a weaker wheel than
    > the front to begin with due to the fact that it is dished to
    > accommodate the cassette. Therefore, dished wheels are often tensioned
    > differently (one side higher than the other). With that knowledge in
    > mind, you should not be shy to spend good money on good quality spokes.
    > My favourite would be Sapim spokes, specifically for your purpose the
    > Sapim Strong and the Sapim Laser. These I would recommend to the heavy
    > duty tourers and people that are over 200lbs. Lace the Sapim Strong on
    > the higher tension side and the Laser on the lesser tension side. This
    > creates an exceptionally well balanced and stronger rear wheel, putting
    > more metal to where the most stresses are. Basic 3 cross lacing is
    > fine and Mavic MA3 are good rims. LX hubs are all you need or Deore
    > are fine too. Most wheel builders do not do this type of wheel
    > building by the way and some will refuse it because it's something they
    > don't understand-- using 2 kinds of spokes which will inherently
    > increase the cost of the wheel build and the complexity and not to
    > mention that most LBS do not like stocking Sapim.
    > Building the front, however, will not be so critical. Use of DT or
    > Wheelsmith spokes would be fine, or stay with Sapim Laser if you wish.
    > But you know, if you buy modest hubs and modest rims and invest in good
    > Sapim butted spokes, you'll have a bombproof set of wheels that will
    > meet your budget and last.
    >
    > Most of us know of Sapim by their famous aero super strong spokes, the
    > Sapim CX-Ray laced on some of the world's most expensive carbon tubular
    > wheelsets.
    >
    > Sapim website:
    >
    > http://www.sapim.be
    >
    > Hope this helps.
    >
    > David.
     
  13. Rick

    Rick Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:
    > none wrote:
    > > Rick wrote:
    > >> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    > >> range of tires you want without issues.

    > >
    > > Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

    >
    > A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though. For
    > narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of sockets)
    > means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel, IMO.


    Do you really have experience with that rim/tire config? I do. I
    ride a T520 (the old designation for the A719), do thousands of miles
    of commuting/touring in it. Works great. When I do change out that
    wheel, it is for one based on an MA3. MA3 works fine if the wheel
    build is good. Mine are good.

    - rick
     
  14. David

    David Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, jim beam
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > David wrote:
    > >>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    > >>Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    > >>should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    > >>end hubs?

    > >
    > >
    > > Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
    > > spokes and not from the rims.

    >
    > 90%? really? where did you get that number from???


    Jim,

    Hmmmm, there was a reason why I provided the Sapim's website at the end
    of the message.

    If you go to the Sapim FAQ site, you will see why I derived of that
    number..

    Here it is again..

    Sapim's website is http://www.sapim.be

    David.
     
  15. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    David wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, jim beam
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>David wrote:
    >>
    >>>>I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    >>>>Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    >>>>should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    >>>>end hubs?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Believe or not, 90% of the wheels strength and stiffness come from the
    >>>spokes and not from the rims.

    >>
    >>90%? really? where did you get that number from???

    >
    >
    > Jim,
    >
    > Hmmmm, there was a reason why I provided the Sapim's website at the end
    > of the message.
    >
    > If you go to the Sapim FAQ site, you will see why I derived of that
    > number..
    >
    > Here it is again..
    >
    > Sapim's website is http://www.sapim.be
    >
    > David.


    hmmmm, you do not cite which page, and you didn't bother to context the
    link to the 90% statement. it may have been clear to you, but not to
    me. and having quickly scanned the site, i /still/ don't see a 90%
    statement.

    besides, do you really think a low-pro lightweight racing rim is just as
    stiff as a heavy duty touring rim?
     
  16. PatC wrote:
    > I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
    > on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
    > get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
    > more.
    >
    > I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
    > encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
    > loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
    > heavy.)
    >
    > I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    > Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    > should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    > end hubs?



    STAY AWAY from MA-3 rims!! We have had roughly a dozen pull eyelets
    out-POOR rims for any application.

    36h LX hubs, Velocity Deep Vs, from Vecchios are in that price range.
    Don't skimp on touring wheels. NO fun to get stick out there.

    >
    > I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
    > popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
    > rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
    > ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
    > I consider rim width?
    >
    > Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
    > White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
    > great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.
    >
    > Thanks in advance. Sorry for the zillion questions!
     
  17. Pete Biggs wrote:
    > none wrote:
    > > Rick wrote:
    > >> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    > >> range of tires you want without issues.

    > >
    > > Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

    >
    > A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though. For
    > narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of sockets)
    > means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel, IMO.


    No they aren't I have installed 28c and even 25c tires onto A719s.
     
  18. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    PatC wrote:
    > I'm looking to have a set of touring wheels hand-built, but I need to do it
    > on a budget (I think about $350.) Dollars are relative though. If I can
    > get significantly lighter, more durable wheels, I would probably spend
    > more.
    >
    > I weigh just under 200 pounds, I very rarely ride off pavement, but do
    > encounter some rough tar and chip. I'd like to be capable of "medium"
    > loaded touring (somewhere between light and heavy! I don't have time for
    > heavy.)
    >
    > I've been looking at Mavic MA3 rims, double butted spokes 14/15, and
    > Shimano LX hubs. Are there other good touring rims and hub combinations I
    > should consider? Is it worth the bucks for Phil Wood hubs or other higher
    > end hubs?
    >
    > I'm also the same poster that asked about the 28c Panaracer Pasela TG's
    > popping off the Velocity wheels. I really still think the wide single-wall
    > rims cause the tires to pop off at higher pressures. I don't think I'd
    > ever run larger than 36c, or smaller than 28c on this wheelset. How should
    > I consider rim width?
    >
    > Also, is it worth going for a "premier" national wheel builder like Peter
    > White, or should a good LBS have a good wheel builder? We have a couple of
    > great bike shops (and a couple of lousy ones) in Nashville, TN.
    >
    > Thanks in advance. Sorry for the zillion questions!


    I think a MA3 is a bit light for touring. I'd go with the A719
    (T519/520). I got a pair of LX/T520 wheels for <$100 mail-order. An
    uncommonly good deal, but you should be able to find a pre-built set for
    <$200. Adjust the tension and stress relieve and you've got a set of
    wheels as good as any custom-built.

    Paselas are nice tires at a great price, but they run a little narrow.
    I'd think about 32mm for touring.

    It's really hard to beat LX hubs, they're probably the best hub value on
    the market. They are very durable. I'd look no further.
     
  19. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Rick wrote:
    > Pete Biggs wrote:
    >> none wrote:
    >>> Rick wrote:
    >>>> Rim width: don't worry. The A719 is wide enough and will hold the
    >>>> range of tires you want without issues.
    >>>
    >>> Wouldn't 24mm rims be a bit large for 28mm tires?

    >>
    >> A719 is indeed too wide for a 28mm, IME. It's ok for 30mm though.
    >> For narrower tyres, how about CXP33? The single eyelets (or lack of
    >> sockets) means the MA3 is not good enough for a touring rear wheel,
    >> IMO.

    >
    > Do you really have experience with that rim/tire config? I do.


    Yes I really do. Perhaps I should have wrote "IMRE" for "in my real
    experience" ;-)

    I have a A719 to which I fitted a Continental Ultra Gatorskin 28. It didn't
    seat well and looked too narrow and "wrong". I now use a Panaracer Pasela
    which actually measures about 30mm in width. I would have preferred the
    next size up but am limited by the frame.

    > I ride a T520 (the old designation for the A719), do thousands of miles
    > of commuting/touring in it. Works great.


    Perhaps the T520 is actually a bit different, or your tyre is a different
    make and happens to fit better, or you just don't mind using a slightly
    too-narrow tyre? I don't know but I stick by my conclusion that the rim is
    best suited to 30+mm tyres. I won't say it's totally impossible to use
    narrower without problems but there are more suitable rims for narrower
    tyres, that's for sure.

    > When I do change out that
    > wheel, it is for one based on an MA3. MA3 works fine if the wheel
    > build is good. Mine are good.


    I accept they can be OK with some luck. Not everyone has had your luck,
    even with well built wheels. Personally, I would only use one for a front
    wheel since better rims can better deal with the extra spoke tension needed
    for rear wheels (right side).

    If budget is limited, have MA3 front and A719 or CXP33 or similar rear. The
    odd looks won't be noticed if the colour is the same. That is sensible.
    Using MA3 rear, or A719 with narrow tyres, is not, IMHO.

    ~PB
     
  20. Rick

    Rick Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:

    > > I ride a T520 (the old designation for the A719), do thousands of miles
    > > of commuting/touring in it. Works great.

    >
    > Perhaps the T520 is actually a bit different,


    No it is not. The T520 and the A719 are identical, just a change in
    name.

    > or your tyre is a different
    > make and happens to fit better,


    Of course; I use Conti TT2000 and Panaracer Pasela TG, *real* touring
    tires, not the Gatorskin which, IMO, is not suitable for touring.

    > or you just don't mind using a slightly
    > too-narrow tyre?


    I do mind, but the 28c's are plenty wide on the T520. When it goes to
    the other bike it has a 32c or 35c, but that bike has limited clearance
    (it is a generator hub based wheel).

    > I don't know but I stick by my conclusion that the rim is
    > best suited to 30+mm tyres. I won't say it's totally impossible to use
    > narrower without problems but there are more suitable rims for narrower
    > tyres, that's for sure.


    Not a lot of really good ones for touring.

    > > When I do change out that
    > > wheel, it is for one based on an MA3. MA3 works fine if the wheel
    > > build is good. Mine are good.

    >
    > I accept they can be OK with some luck. Not everyone has had your luck,
    > even with well built wheels. Personally, I would only use one for a front
    > wheel since better rims can better deal with the extra spoke tension needed
    > for rear wheels (right side).
    >
    > If budget is limited, have MA3 front and A719 or CXP33 or similar rear. The
    > odd looks won't be noticed if the colour is the same. That is sensible.
    > Using MA3 rear, or A719 with narrow tyres, is not, IMHO.


    For heavy duty, the A719 is many, many, many times better than the
    CXP33. If you do not like the A719, go to the Velocity Dyad or Sun
    CR18, both much better than the CXP33 for this application.

    - rick
     
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