TR - Ennerdale 3-day backpack

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by GeoffC, Feb 23, 2004.

  1. GeoffC

    GeoffC Guest

    Tags:


  2. > Ennerdale 3-day backpack report and photos uploaded from last Tuesday to Thursday.
    >
    > It has 1 full interactive pan and 2 partials, including 1 experimental short-range pan of
    > Innominate Tarn.

    Nice set of pictures Geoff, looked incredibly good weather.

    Also read of your Soapbox report on the OS. I was hounded by them last year. I had a couple of hand-
    drawn (Paintshop Pro) maps on my website outlining the routes. No scanning was used, pure free hand
    and from memory (with a teeny wee view of a map). The OS must do a trawl of walk-related websites as
    I had an initial email inviting me to remove them. I ignored this, as in my opinion I had not used
    any of their maps. Some weeks later, another email appeared with a long statement has to how their
    cartographers had done a detailed analysis of my maps (what a joke!) and come to the conclusion I
    was in breach of OS copyright. How, I never know! It was stated that I could either purchase an
    annual licence, remove them, or risk having the website closed down. Not sure how they could have
    achieved the latter. Anyway, to avoid any aggravation, I decided to remove them.

    Big brother still rules the roost.

    --
    Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk

    'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still brings
    the same excitement'
     
  3. GeoffC

    GeoffC Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:23:42 -0000, "sandy saunders"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I had a couple of hand-drawn (Paintshop Pro) maps on my website outlining the routes. No scanning
    > was used, pure free hand and from memory (with a teeny wee view of a map). The OS must do a trawl
    > of walk-related websites as I had an initial email inviting me to remove them. I ignored this, as
    > in my opinion I had not used any of their maps. Some weeks later, another email appeared with a
    > long statement has to how their cartographers had done a detailed analysis of my maps (what a
    > joke!) and come to the conclusion I was in breach of OS copyright. How, I never know! It was
    > stated that I could either purchase an annual licence, remove them, or risk having the website
    > closed down. Not sure how they could have achieved the latter. Anyway, to avoid any aggravation, I
    > decided to remove them.
    >
    >Big brother still rules the roost.

    Yes I heard about that, I have a copy of your OS correspondence here. Do you still have your website
    maps?. I'd like to see a typical one and compare it with mine, if you could email it to me it would
    be interesting. Presumably you have had a look at mine for the Ennerdale trip, how do yoy think it
    compares?. Regards
     
  4. > Yes I heard about that, I have a copy of your OS correspondence here. Do you still have your
    > website maps?. I'd like to see a typical one and compare it with mine, if you could email it to me
    > it would be interesting.

    Will do if I can find an old copy on my archive disks.

    >Presumably you have had a look at mine for the Ennerdale trip, how do yoy think it compares?.

    Just had a look at your maps, my was pretty much the same. I even advertised for the OS by
    recommended what OS map was applicable for the route. Some thanks for that!

    --
    Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk

    'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still brings
    the same excitement'
     
  5. sandy saunders wrote:

    > had a couple of hand-drawn (Paintshop Pro) maps on my website outlining the routes. No scanning
    > was used, pure free hand and from memory

    > I ignored this, as in my opinion I had not used any of their maps.

    Has it occurred to you that although you drew the maps from memory, your memory was of the OS maps,
    so in effect you were copying their maps? I mean, if I were to draw a map of the Gower coastline
    say, I'd imagine how it looked on the map. But how accurately would I be able to draw the shape of
    the coastline if I'd simply walked around it, without ever seeing a map of it?

    Without a lot of effort spent taking compass bearings, estimating distances and making notes (or
    recording a GPS track), my impression of the shape of the coastline might be wildly different to
    reality. Look at some of the earliest maps that sailors made of coastlines. Some early maps of
    Britain were way off, but they may have seemed to be a perfectly reasonable representation of what
    people thought the shape was at the time.

    So how can you prove that you weren't copying your memory of an OS map? Do we even form concepts
    of the shapes of places based on actual experience anymore, or do we just look at a map and
    memorise that?

    Arguably you may have been copying a Harveys map of the area, but how could you prove you'd never
    seen an OS map of it? Even then you'd presumably be in breach of Harveys copyright.

    I guess the only way to avoid this copyright issue is to truly make your own map of an area. The
    easiest method would simply be to walk around it recording GPS tracks, but that would require a lot
    of leg work. A bicycle could be used for easier tracks and roads could be mapped out by car. That
    would give you a framework.

    You wouldn't need to visit every location, you could make a list of features that you don't want
    to visit and triangulate them, simply taking compass bearings from different viewpoints, all
    marked with GPS waypoints of course. A bit of effort with pen and paper and compass would save a
    lot of legwork.

    You could also take numerous photographs of the area from different viewpoints (digital would be
    ideal for this of course) and use them to fill in the detail within your framework. To avoid
    problems with OS grid references it may be better to use WGS84 and lat/long coordinates.

    I'm sure it would be possible to construct quite a reasonable map of an area if you were prepared to
    put some time and effort into it. If the OS were then to challenge you, as they well might (after
    all, if your map is accurate it will look very similar to theirs), then you can claim to have mapped
    it yourself. Provided you keep all your GPS logs, compass bearing notes and photographs, you will
    have all the evidence you need to prove that you mapped it yourself, if they should decide to take
    it further.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749
     
  6. Dave Pickles

    Dave Pickles Guest

    Paul Saunders wrote:

    > I guess the only way to avoid this copyright issue is to truly make your own map of an area.

    Or copy a map published in 1953 or earlier. Crown Copyright ends 50 years after the end of the
    year of issue.
    --
    Dave
     
  7. Dave Pickles wrote:

    >> I guess the only way to avoid this copyright issue is to truly make your own map of an area.
    >
    > Or copy a map published in 1953 or earlier. Crown Copyright ends 50 years after the end of the
    > year of issue.

    Are the OS okay with this? I mean, could you scan such a map (or get a digital one off the net,
    there's a site somewhere, isn't there?) and add your own details to it, then put it on your website?
    Most mountains don't change much, if that's what you need a map of.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749
     
  8. Dave Pickles

    Dave Pickles Guest

    Paul Saunders wrote:

    > Dave Pickles wrote:
    >
    >>> I guess the only way to avoid this copyright issue is to truly make your own map of an area.
    >>
    >> Or copy a map published in 1953 or earlier. Crown Copyright ends 50 years after the end of the
    >> year of issue.
    >
    > Are the OS okay with this? I mean, could you scan such a map (or get a digital one off the net,
    > there's a site somewhere, isn't there?) and add your own details to it, then put it on your
    > website? Most mountains don't change much, if that's what you need a map of.

    IANAL but that's my understanding. It needs to be an original 50+ year old map though, as any
    reproduction carries its own copyright which starts the clock ticking again. Sites such as www.old-
    maps.co.uk can and do place restrictions on the use of their images.
    --
    Dave
     
  9. Boo

    Boo Guest

    >>Or copy a map published in 1953 or earlier. Crown Copyright ends 50 years after the end of the
    >>year of issue.
    >
    > Are the OS okay with this? I mean, could you scan such a map (or get a digital one off the net,
    > there's a site somewhere, isn't there?)

    AIUI, digitising the original OS maps counts as creating a new work (because the digitisation
    process involves substantial human input). So if there is a web site with digitised OS maps then
    it's likely there's aboutanother 70 years (or whatever it is) of copyright left to run :-(

    It's possible to digitise them yourself however, without infringing.

    --
    Boo
     
  10. Tim Jackson

    Tim Jackson Guest

    Dave Pickles wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:06:18 +0000....
    > It needs to be an original 50+ year old map though, as any reproduction carries its own copyright
    > which starts the clock ticking again. Sites such as www.old-maps.co.uk can and do place
    > restrictions on the use of their images.

    If it was just a straightforward copy of the old map, that wouldn't get them a new copyright. If
    they've tarted it up in some way, then it might or might not, depending what they've done. (But it
    might not take much).

    There was a thread here a while ago where it was suggested that someone's claim to a new copyright
    in an old map was based on having altered the grid projection or something like that.

    In a case like that, as you say, you'd still be entitled to go back to the original, unaltered map
    and copy that. It would only be the new, altered version that could be protected.

    Of course, they are entitled to *claim* that what they've done is enough to give them to a new
    copyright until such time as a court tells them they're wrong. Feed a few hundred thousand quid into
    the hands of a bunch of lawyers and you'll get a more definitive answer.

    --
    Tim Jackson [email protected] (Change '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct)
    Absurd patents: visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk
     
  11. GeoffC

    GeoffC Guest

    Thanks for all the map input everyone, I understood the situation a lot better after ploughing
    through the old map thread a while back. But this was a TR thread!...

    >Regards

    -- GeoffC
     
  12. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:02:28 +0000, GeoffC <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Thanks for all the map input everyone, I understood the situation a lot better after ploughing
    >through the old map thread a while back. But this was a TR thread!...

    Hehe

    Nasty outbreak of Thread Drift there!

    Have to say, superb pictures Geoff, and the panoramas are brilliant - helped of course by the
    brilliant weather. High Stile Ridge is one of my few remaining big Lakeland hill tracts I've
    never visited - somehow it's always been mingin weather when I've thought of going over there.
    Have done Haystacks with the kids a few years ago so I know the views are stunning. Definitely on
    my wish list.

    Paul Leigh Lancs
     
  13. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Tim Jackson wrote:
    > Dave Pickles wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:06:18 +0000....
    >> It needs to be an original 50+ year old map though, as any reproduction carries its own copyright
    >> which starts the clock ticking again. Sites such as www.old-maps.co.uk can and do place
    >> restrictions on the use of their images.
    >
    > If it was just a straightforward copy of the old map, that wouldn't get them a new copyright. If
    > they've tarted it up in some way, then it might or might not, depending what they've done. (But it
    > might not take much).
    >

    I tried reading through these sites but I am no wiser, maybe someone else can make some
    sense of it :)

    http://www.cla.co.uk/

    http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/what.htm

    http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/

    http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/indetail/usingcopyright.htm

    --
    Don`t Worry, Be Happy

    Sandy
    --

    E-Mail:- [email protected] Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk IRC:- Sandyb in #rabble
    uk3.arcnet.vapor.com Port:6667 #Rabble Channel Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/rabbled
    ICQ : 41266150
     
  14. "Paul Saunders" <[email protected]> writes:

    >sandy saunders wrote:

    >> had a couple of hand-drawn (Paintshop Pro) maps on my website outlining the routes. No scanning
    >> was used, pure free hand and from memory

    >> I ignored this, as in my opinion I had not used any of their maps.

    >Has it occurred to you that although you drew the maps from memory, your memory was of the OS maps,
    >so in effect you were copying their maps? I mean, if I were to draw a map of the Gower coastline
    >say, I'd imagine how it looked on the map. But how accurately would I be able to draw the shape of
    >the coastline if I'd simply walked around it, without ever seeing a map of it?

    >Without a lot of effort spent taking compass bearings, estimating distances and making notes (or
    >recording a GPS track), my impression of the shape of the coastline might be wildly different to
    >reality. Look at some of the earliest maps that sailors made of coastlines. Some early maps of
    >Britain were way off, but they may have seemed to be a perfectly reasonable representation of what
    >people thought the shape was at the time.

    >So how can you prove that you weren't copying your memory of an OS map? Do we even form concepts
    >of the shapes of places based on actual experience anymore, or do we just look at a map and
    >memorise that?

    But these days it is often possible to find good satellite photos of an area, or even aerial
    photographs, on the web, for free. You can use these as a basis for a map. If there is a suitable
    nearby high location, tower or peak, a photograph from there can be can also be used, with suitable
    proejction/rescaling software, be used as the basis for a map. Calibrate with a few GPS waypoints
    and you're off.

    >I'm sure it would be possible to construct quite a reasonable map of an area if you were prepared
    >to put some time and effort into it. If the OS were then to challenge you, as they well might
    >(after all, if your map is accurate it will look very similar to theirs), then you can claim to
    >have mapped it yourself. Provided you keep all your GPS logs, compass bearing notes and
    >photographs, you will have all the evidence you need to prove that you mapped it yourself, if they
    >should decide to take it further.

    I think these days aerial and satellite photographs, and computers able to mess with images, have
    made this much easier than you suggest.

    --
    Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
  15. Jim Hutton

    Jim Hutton Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:47:38 GMT, "Sandy" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Tim Jackson wrote:
    >> Dave Pickles wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:06:18 +0000....
    >>> It needs to be an original 50+ year old map though, as any reproduction carries its own
    >>> copyright which starts the clock ticking again. Sites such as www.old-maps.co.uk can and do
    >>> place restrictions on the use of their images.
    >>
    >> If it was just a straightforward copy of the old map, that wouldn't get them a new copyright. If
    >> they've tarted it up in some way, then it might or might not, depending what they've done. (But
    >> it might not take much).
    >>
    >
    >I tried reading through these sites but I am no wiser, maybe someone else can make some
    >sense of it :)
    >
    >http://www.cla.co.uk/
    >
    >http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/what.htm
    >
    >http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/
    >
    >http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/indetail/usingcopyright.htm
    >
    >Don`t Worry, Be Happy
    >
    > Sandy

    I have been doing exactly what was described in the original thread - using 50+ year-old maps for
    the basis, and mapping (in my case) footpaths, houses, roads etc using a gps and a lot of footwork.

    The intention is to provide detailed footpath maps for uploading to Garmin GPS. I checked with the
    OS and they confirmed that this process was all quite legal, but they asked me to put an
    acknowledgement of the OS on the website.

    Incidentally, someone suggested using aerial photos as a basis for maps. Copyright applies just as
    much here, so a map based on someone else's aerial photos is still infringing copyright.

    This may all be old history shortly - I have heard a rumour that NSA are planning to release
    detailed satellite photos (5m resolution !) for the whole of Europe. AFAIK there will be no
    copyright reserved.

    Jim Hutton
     
  16. In message <[email protected]>, Jim Hutton <[email protected]> writes
    >Incidentally, someone suggested using aerial photos as a basis for maps. Copyright applies just as
    >much here, so a map based on someone else's aerial photos is still infringing copyright.

    Are you sure about this? I'd be very surprised if any copyright is breached. You are not using the
    creative input of the photographer. You are simply using published material as the source of your
    own creativity. I doubt that you are breaching copyright any more than the photographer is breaching
    copyright in reproducing my carefully crafted roof when he takes the photograph... Now this is my
    guesswork - anyone have anything better to go on?

    --
    Michael Farthing cyclades Software House
     
  17. Chris Malcolm wrote:

    > If there is a suitable nearby high location, tower or peak, a photograph from there can be can
    > also be used, with suitable proejction/rescaling software, be used as the basis for a map.
    > Calibrate with a few GPS waypoints and you're off.

    I wouldn't know how to do that.

    > I think these days aerial and satellite photographs, and computers able to mess with images, have
    > made this much easier than you suggest.

    Probably, but contours would still be a problem.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749
     
  18. Jim Hutton wrote:

    > Incidentally, someone suggested using aerial photos as a basis for maps. Copyright applies just as
    > much here, so a map based on someone else's aerial photos is still infringing copyright.
    >
    > This may all be old history shortly - I have heard a rumour that NSA are planning to release
    > detailed satellite photos (5m resolution !) for the whole of Europe. AFAIK there will be no
    > copyright reserved.

    Yeah, but how are you going to work out the contour lines? Hilly land tends to look very flat from
    an aerial view.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749
     
  19. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:01:18 +0000, Jim Hutton
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >they asked me to put an acknowledgement of the OS on the website.

    Cheeky bastards!
     
  20. RJ Webb

    RJ Webb Guest

    >IANAL but that's my understanding. It needs to be an original 50+ year old map though, as any
    >reproduction carries its own copyright which starts the clock ticking again. Sites such as www.old-
    >maps.co.uk can and do place restrictions on the use of their images.
    >--
    >Dave

    I started collecting old maps 25 years ago - was thinking that come 1996 I could legally copy them.
    I intend using OoC OS material in the future on my site, when I have more space.

    Orienteering mappers have started using old maps too. Sadly even if a tiny part of OS material was
    used, the copyright licence held by the fascists ^H^H^H governing body does not allow placement on
    the net. The O$ Scumbags censored the net of almost all British orienteering maps a few years ago,
    removing access to a fascinating art form. They are gits, total gits.

    I cannot even copy my own maps! 100s of my man hours, a tiny OS input and they hog the copyright.

    Richard Webb
     
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