Track bike help

[[email protected]]

Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
if it could work with my rear hub. Both of the wheels quick release and
solid are almost identical.I am gonna with help rework either rear
wheel...new spokes, etc. Im pretty sure it can work but I wanted to
make sure. Below I linked the ebay ad and a pic of the quick release
wheel. Thanks so much

http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf01457cn.jpg


http://cgi.ebay.com/Track-Cog-18T-New_W0QQitemZ7226850872QQcategoryZ42319QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Vee]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
> 27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
> problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
> if it could work with my rear hub. Both of the wheels quick release and
> solid are almost identical.I am gonna with help rework either rear
> wheel...new spokes, etc. Im pretty sure it can work but I wanted to
> make sure. Below I linked the ebay ad and a pic of the quick release
> wheel. Thanks so much
>
> http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf01457cn.jpg
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Track-Cog-18T-New_W0QQitemZ7226850872QQcategoryZ42319QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The ebay cog is compatible with your hub. You may want to loctite the
sucker on there, and secure it with a lockring from an old adjustable
cup bottom bracket (ask your local bike shop for one).

It's better to use a real track hub than your conventional freewheel
hub for a number of reasons, but your setup will work as long as you
have at least a front brake.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed-conversion.html#freewheelhub for
more info.

-Vee

 

[[email protected]]

yes..my mechanic friend is gonna help with alignment and other such
stuff. Will do with the bottom brack cup. Thanks!!!

 

[Earl Bollinger]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> yes..my mechanic friend is gonna help with alignment and other such
> stuff. Will do with the bottom brack cup. Thanks!!!
>

Although it may work on your hub, you do not have a hub that is threaded so
that you can use it with the lockring on it.
With a fixed cog and no freewheel, you run a considerable risk of the cog
unscrewing on you if you reverse pedal or use the pedals to brake or slow
down.
It is very dangerous when this happens.

For example, check out the White Industries Fixed and Free flip flop hub
here.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/singlespeed.html#hubs
You'll note that it has the threaded section for the rear cog, and a reverse
threaded portion for the lockring. What that does is prevent the rear cog
from unscrewing on you when you reverse pedal or brake using your pedals. It
is very dangerous to have the cog unscrew on you.

Now you might be able to use some serious locktite to glue the rear cog onto
the hub. But as I see it, it will be really hard to get it off later, and
unless you get it torqued down hard before the locktite sets, it may still
unscrew on you anyway, if you try to lock up the rear wheel using the
pedals.

Now if you are using a freewheel BMX type of cog, no problems at all.

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

[email protected] wrote:

> Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
> 27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
> problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
> if it could work with my rear hub. Both of the wheels quick release and
> solid are almost identical.I am gonna with help rework either rear
> wheel...new spokes, etc. Im pretty sure it can work but I wanted to
> make sure. Below I linked the ebay ad and a pic of the quick release
> wheel. Thanks so much

A proper track hub has a left hand thread for a lockring, which more or
less guarantees that the sprocket will never come undone under
pedal-braking. If you fit it with the mother of all chainwhips (I made
my own 2 foot 1/8" chainwhip for about 3UKP) this is pretty unlikely
anyway, and many fixed riders believe it's safer not to have a lockring
in case the chain comes off. Personally I do use a lockring and my
chain won't come off because it's straight and tight.

The cog looks a bit like a Cyclo. If so, they are cheap and crudely cut
(not machined properly), with very shallow threads. OK for a beater,
but you wouldn't want one on a nice track hub.

But the short answer to your question is yes, they will work OK together.

 

[[email protected]]

Yeah the cog I dont think Im gonna buy. It is kind of overpriced and
not good quality. I am thinking about a dura ace one. Shimano makes
excellent items. Thanks


Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
> > 27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
> > problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
> > if it could work with my rear hub. Both of the wheels quick release and
> > solid are almost identical.I am gonna with help rework either rear
> > wheel...new spokes, etc. Im pretty sure it can work but I wanted to
> > make sure. Below I linked the ebay ad and a pic of the quick release
> > wheel. Thanks so much
>
> A proper track hub has a left hand thread for a lockring, which more or
> less guarantees that the sprocket will never come undone under
> pedal-braking. If you fit it with the mother of all chainwhips (I made
> my own 2 foot 1/8" chainwhip for about 3UKP) this is pretty unlikely
> anyway, and many fixed riders believe it's safer not to have a lockring
> in case the chain comes off. Personally I do use a lockring and my
> chain won't come off because it's straight and tight.
>
> The cog looks a bit like a Cyclo. If so, they are cheap and crudely cut
> (not machined properly), with very shallow threads. OK for a beater,
> but you wouldn't want one on a nice track hub.
>
> But the short answer to your question is yes, they will work OK together.

 

[Colin Campbell]

[email protected] wrote:

>Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
>27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
>problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
>if it could work with my rear hub. Both of the wheels quick release and
>solid are almost identical.I am gonna with help rework either rear
>wheel...new spokes, etc. Im pretty sure it can work but I wanted to
>make sure. Below I linked the ebay ad and a pic of the quick release
>wheel. Thanks so much
>
>http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf01457cn.jpg
>
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/Track-Cog-18T-New_W0QQitemZ7226850872QQcategoryZ42319QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>
>
One thing to consider about a "track bike" -- if you're going to use it
in a race at a track, the bicycle cannot have a quick release on it.
(See USCF Rulebook for 2006.) This would be a "good sense" rule if you
are just riding, not racing, at a track.

This is because of the (not so remote?) chance that your wheel might
come in contact with another wheel, and the quick release might catch on
the other wheel, perhaps opening the quick release and likely tearing
out spokes on the other wheel. QR's are allowed in events where only
one bike is on the track at a time.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:08:23 -0800, 24inchdubs wrote:

> Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
> 27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
> problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
> if it could work with my rear hub.

It will work with the pictured hub, as well as any would. However, no way
this is worth $14.25. It is a relatively cheap sprocket. For that kind
of money, used, I'd expect Campy. You can get these at swap meets for $5
or less; I have done so several times.

The wheel is no great shakes, either. It is not really meant for fixed
gear riding. For $20 or so you can get a new hub that is meant for fixed
gear, with a lockring. Better idea. Check Harris Cyclery for details.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with using QR axles on a fixed gear. That's
what I do, and it saves hassles and the need to carry a wrench.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:14:00 -0800, Colin Campbell wrote:

> One thing to consider about a "track bike" -- if you're going to use it
> in a race at a track, the bicycle cannot have a quick release on it.
> (See USCF Rulebook for 2006.) This would be a "good sense" rule if you
> are just riding, not racing, at a track.
>
> This is because of the (not so remote?) chance that your wheel might
> come in contact with another wheel, and the quick release might catch on
> the other wheel, perhaps opening the quick release and likely tearing
> out spokes on the other wheel. QR's are allowed in events where only
> one bike is on the track at a time.

While it is true that this is a rule, it is nonsense. Why is there no
such rule for road races, if it is so dangerous? In a crit,
anyone who flats is out of the race, anyway, so the need for a
fast tire change is questionable. Actually, the rule is there not for
that purpose, and not for quick-releases. It is a holdover of a rule
aimed at old-fashioned wing-nuts, which because of their flanges could and
did hurt people in crashes. They were allowed on road races (few crits
back then), but were a hazard even there.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
_`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
(_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:10:23 -0600, Earl Bollinger wrote:

> Although it may work on your hub, you do not have a hub that is threaded so
> that you can use it with the lockring on it.
> With a fixed cog and no freewheel, you run a considerable risk of the cog
> unscrewing on you if you reverse pedal or use the pedals to brake or slow
> down.
> It is very dangerous when this happens.

Come on. Don't overstate this. A cog that has been on and used for a
while is damn near impossible to spin off. The only one I ever loosened
while riding was a very low gear (probably a 48/20), and one that I had
just put on. I have tried, with cogs that have been on there a while, to
loosen them by back-pedalling, skid-stopping, and all sorts of silly
things, with no effect.

It is also not likely to be the end of the world if it happens. Unless
you sit there with your legs still for some distance, you won't completely
unscrew the cog, and only then could things get messy.

I use lockrings, and I recommend them, but doing without is not likely to
get you killed.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
_`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
(_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

 

[dvt]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> In a crit,
> anyone who flats is out of the race, anyway, so the need for a
> fast tire change is questionable.

Most crits I've raced in allow a free lap for just such occasions. If
you flat, you go to the pit, pick up your spare wheel, and get inserted
back into the race on the next lap.

Anecdote... I was racing a rainy crit a few years back, and a rider just
ahead of me slipped and crashed. He and one other rider went down,
causing a decent split in the field. I was caught behind the split, and
my group never caught the front of the field again. The riders that
crashed took a free lap, rejoined the front of the field, and went on to
place high enough to take home some winnings.

As they say, that's racing.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

 

[Paul Hobson]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:08:23 -0800, 24inchdubs wrote:
>>Hi, I got the wheels set for my track bike figured out. I got a nice
>>27" front and either a quick release or solid axle rear wheel. The
>>problem is now in the cog. I found this cog on Ebay and was wondering
>>if it could work with my rear hub.

>
> The wheel is no great shakes, either. It is not really meant for fixed
> gear riding. For $20 or so you can get a new hub that is meant for fixed
> gear, with a lockring. Better idea. Check Harris Cyclery for details.

ehh...try $45, going with a Formula flip-flop hub. Which are great hubs
btw. I highly recommend them.
\\paul

 

[[email protected]]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:10:23 -0600, Earl Bollinger wrote:
>
> > Although it may work on your hub, you do not have a hub that is threaded so
> > that you can use it with the lockring on it.
> > With a fixed cog and no freewheel, you run a considerable risk of the cog
> > unscrewing on you if you reverse pedal or use the pedals to brake or slow
> > down.
> > It is very dangerous when this happens.
>
> Come on. Don't overstate this. A cog that has been on and used for a
> while is damn near impossible to spin off. The only one I ever loosened
> while riding was a very low gear (probably a 48/20), and one that I had
> just put on. I have tried, with cogs that have been on there a while, to
> loosen them by back-pedalling, skid-stopping, and all sorts of silly
> things, with no effect.
>
> It is also not likely to be the end of the world if it happens. Unless
> you sit there with your legs still for some distance, you won't completely
> unscrew the cog, and only then could things get messy.
>
> I use lockrings, and I recommend them, but doing without is not likely to
> get you killed.

Since people don't google the group, much...

A few years ago, I put a well-greased cog onto a Campy road hub, nice
and tight, with a regular (cheap) chain tool. Padded the handle with a
shop rag, no extension for added leverage, tightened it once and then
again after a short interval. I could have pushed harder... Then,
backed the bike up against a wall, so the wheel couldn't move, and
tried to spin the cog back off using the crank (backpedaling). It took
several, going-for-glory,
full WWF body slams to back the cog off. Rider weight, over 200lbs,
plus taking full advantage of gravity, muscles, and a captive
wheel/bike.

How do you spin a cog off in the "real world", where the tire would
slip long before such pressure could be applied?

Having operated with strict budget constraints myself, I offer this as
only a precaution: the rear wheel the OP pictured looks pretty dodgy to
me. Rusty/frosty spokes, and that rim might be old enough that it
doesn't have a hooked bead on it, either. Well, if it survives the
redish and tensioning... --D-y

 

[Vee]

[email protected] wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:10:23 -0600, Earl Bollinger wrote:
> >
> > > Although it may work on your hub, you do not have a hub that is threaded so
> > > that you can use it with the lockring on it.
> > > With a fixed cog and no freewheel, you run a considerable risk of the cog
> > > unscrewing on you if you reverse pedal or use the pedals to brake or slow
> > > down.
> > > It is very dangerous when this happens.
> >
> > Come on. Don't overstate this. A cog that has been on and used for a
> > while is damn near impossible to spin off. The only one I ever loosened
> > while riding was a very low gear (probably a 48/20), and one that I had
> > just put on. I have tried, with cogs that have been on there a while, to
> > loosen them by back-pedalling, skid-stopping, and all sorts of silly
> > things, with no effect.
> >
> > It is also not likely to be the end of the world if it happens. Unless
> > you sit there with your legs still for some distance, you won't completely
> > unscrew the cog, and only then could things get messy.
> >
> > I use lockrings, and I recommend them, but doing without is not likely to
> > get you killed.
>
> Since people don't google the group, much...
>
> A few years ago, I put a well-greased cog onto a Campy road hub, nice
> and tight, with a regular (cheap) chain tool. Padded the handle with a
> shop rag, no extension for added leverage, tightened it once and then
> again after a short interval. I could have pushed harder... Then,
> backed the bike up against a wall, so the wheel couldn't move, and
> tried to spin the cog back off using the crank (backpedaling). It took
> several, going-for-glory,
> full WWF body slams to back the cog off. Rider weight, over 200lbs,
> plus taking full advantage of gravity, muscles, and a captive
> wheel/bike.

Did you ride this setup? With or without brakes? I bet you would have
applied more force through the pedals in a panic-stop situation than
you did with the wheel against a wall. I agree that it's tough to spin
a cog off by jumping on the crank while the wheel is pressed against
your door, but that's irrelevant. I've gotten cogs tighter than I
suspect you did with your chain whip (if that's what you meant by
"chain tool"), and easily spun them loose in panic situations (my
setup: approx 75 gear inches, clipless pedals, new DA cog on new Surly
hub, tightened with a long track cog wrench). Fortunately, I had a
front brake as well.

> How do you spin a cog off in the "real world", where the tire would
> slip long before such pressure could be applied?

You tell us. Take the brakes off the bike you describe above and ride
in nasty traffic. Good luck.

-Vee

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:23:21 -0800, Vee wrote:

> Did you ride this setup? With or without brakes? I bet you would have
> applied more force through the pedals in a panic-stop situation than
> you did with the wheel against a wall.

You'd lose that bet.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
_`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |

 

[[email protected]]

Vee wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Since people don't google the group, much...
> >
> > A few years ago, I put a well-greased cog onto a Campy road hub, nice
> > and tight, with a regular (cheap) chain tool. Padded the handle with a
> > shop rag, no extension for added leverage, tightened it once and then
> > again after a short interval. I could have pushed harder... Then,
> > backed the bike up against a wall, so the wheel couldn't move, and
> > tried to spin the cog back off using the crank (backpedaling). It took
> > several, going-for-glory,
> > full WWF body slams to back the cog off. Rider weight, over 200lbs,
> > plus taking full advantage of gravity, muscles, and a captive
> > wheel/bike.

(Vee):

> Did you ride this setup?

This iteration? I don't believe so. Same parts, different time, yes.
Several other combinations of same/similar parts: Campy NR or Tipo road
hub, TDK (?) Suntour, Dura Ace cogs. Very non-continuous, but my first
road conversion fixer was 1981. Or maybe 82; but I think 81.

> With or without brakes?

Always with brakes, until the last year or so. Now I have a bike with
front only. Don't like it much.

> I bet you would have
> applied more force through the pedals in a panic-stop situation than
> you did with the wheel against a wall. I agree that it's tough to spin
> a cog off by jumping on the crank while the wheel is pressed against
> your door, but that's irrelevant.

How so? The bike is braced, the tire can't skid, there are no
distractions. Like I said, I went for the gusto.

> I've gotten cogs tighter than I
> suspect you did with your chain whip (if that's what you meant by
> "chain tool"),

Yeah that's what I meant. Maybe you did get a cog on tighter than me.

> and easily spun them loose in panic situations (my
> setup: approx 75 gear inches, clipless pedals, new DA cog on new Surly
> hub, tightened with a long track cog wrench). Fortunately, I had a
> front brake as well.

Well, you'll have to explain how you could push down harder than I did
while you were moving without the tire skidding.

(I asked):
> > How do you spin a cog off in the "real world", where the tire would
> > slip long before such pressure could be applied?

(Vee replied):
> You tell us.

No, you tell me. I asked first. Let's hear the technique used.

(Vee):

> Take the brakes off the bike you describe above and ride
> in nasty traffic. Good luck.

Go jump in the lake, and the same good fortune to you.

I am so open to someone showing me the fault(s) in my little
experiment. Really, and "TIA". --D-y

 

[Paul Hobson]

> Vee wrote:
>> Take the brakes off the bike you describe above and ride
>>in nasty traffic. Good luck.

[email protected] wrote:
> Go jump in the lake, and the same good fortune to you.
>
> I am so open to someone showing me the fault(s) in my little
> experiment. Really, and "TIA". --D-y

Well, I really can't take sides here since I'm not exactly sure what I
think. But I'll try to offer the following...

1) There was a thread a while ago about setting up fixies. On poster
chimed in that had a buddy who rode sans lockring and could lock up the
pedals but keep the weight on the rear wheel such that the lockring
would on thread. According to the poster, his buddy would then have to
spin really fast to thread the cog back on. Here's that thread (post 14
by Tom Nakashima) <http://tinyurl.com/grreg>

Secondly: Also, I think you're experiment is a little flawed in that you
putting dramatic, but short forces on one pedal at a time (right?).
Truth be told, I get most of my stopping power by pulling up as my front
foot travels downward. And obviously, when I slow down sans brakes, I'm
applying that pressure over a range of motion (time) that is much long
than your body slams.

c) Whenever I've set up the few fixie wheels that I own, I thread on the
cog as tight as I can, get the lockring on as tight as a I can, then
ride up the steep high just outside my house to get it tighter. Then I
have to walk down or else I'll unthread the cog back to where it was
before I've a chance to tighten the lockring further. I've never had to
do this more than once and I've haven't felt my cogs slip back even the
slightest bit.

but that's just my personal experience.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

 

[[email protected]]

Well I am definitely gonna run full brakes. Also, Im gonna re do that
wheel. New spokes, service the bearings and stuff. My mechanic buddy is
gonna help out. thanks for all the input.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:21:01 -0500, Paul Hobson wrote:

> 1) There was a thread a while ago about setting up fixies. On poster
> chimed in that had a buddy who rode sans lockring and could lock up the
> pedals but keep the weight on the rear wheel such that the lockring
> would on thread. According to the poster, his buddy would then have to
> spin really fast to thread the cog back on. Here's that thread (post 14
> by Tom Nakashima) <http://tinyurl.com/grreg>

Bunk. Unless he does that all the time, so that the cog won't get
properly seated. I have personal experience that it is extremely hard to
unscrew a cog that has been ridden (like for 1000 miles or so).

> Secondly: Also, I think you're experiment is a little flawed in that you
> putting dramatic, but short forces on one pedal at a time (right?).
> Truth be told, I get most of my stopping power by pulling up as my front
> foot travels downward. And obviously, when I slow down sans brakes, I'm
> applying that pressure over a range of motion (time) that is much long
> than your body slams.

This would be less likely, rather than more likely, to cause the cog to
loosen.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve
_`\(,_ | death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to
(_)/ (_) | them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.
-- J. R. R. Tolkein

 

[[email protected]]

Paul Hobson wrote:

> 1) There was a thread a while ago about setting up fixies. On poster
> chimed in that had a buddy who rode sans lockring and could lock up the
> pedals but keep the weight on the rear wheel such that the lockring
> would on thread. According to the poster, his buddy would then have to
> spin really fast to thread the cog back on. Here's that thread (post 14
> by Tom Nakashima) <http://tinyurl.com/grreg>
>
> Secondly: Also, I think you're experiment is a little flawed in that you
> putting dramatic, but short forces on one pedal at a time (right?).
> Truth be told, I get most of my stopping power by pulling up as my front
> foot travels downward. And obviously, when I slow down sans brakes, I'm
> applying that pressure over a range of motion (time) that is much long
> than your body slams.
>
> c) Whenever I've set up the few fixie wheels that I own, I thread on the
> cog as tight as I can, get the lockring on as tight as a I can, then
> ride up the steep high just outside my house to get it tighter. Then I
> have to walk down or else I'll unthread the cog back to where it was
> before I've a chance to tighten the lockring further. I've never had to
> do this more than once and I've haven't felt my cogs slip back even the
> slightest bit.
>
> but that's just my personal experience.

Thank you for posting that.

Begs a couple of questions:
How much you can tighten the LR after your trip up the hill?
Have you ever loosened a cog, LR or no, on a fixer, in "normal road
use"?
IOW, have you found this extra tightening to be needed to prevent
loosenings experienced without the trip up the hill? What size gear are
you using, in inches?

Paul, you could save yourself a walk down the hill if you carried your
LR wrench with you on the
ride up <g>.

I'm a retired repair/remodel plumber, and "gave it my best shot" to get
that cog off with the pedal (the right one), in light of that
experience. A carefully applied blast of torque, IMS, is what pops
parts loose. Your muscles get tired pretty fast, so your first effort
needs to be a good one. I do think my technique improved on the third
or fourth (fifth, sixth, whatever it was) slam and I finally nailed it
hard enough to spin the cog backwards. I blocked the wheel because
(Sheldon Brown writes about this) traction is so limited on the rear
wheel when in motion, riding, that it is very easy to lock it up with a
caliper brake (weak stopping power), at which point your feet can
(will) stop pedaling as you slide the rear tire. IOW, I didn't want to
leave an easy way for my cog- unscrewing efforts' energy to be lost in
slippage. I think it was a pretty good setup; the bike couldn't move
much at all, and I had balance and control much better than I think
could be done while rolling, testimony of those who say they can
unscrew tight cogs notwithstanding. "I'd like to see them do it", as
the saying goes. Still open. --D-y