Track chain, bushing or non-bushing

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Almost Fast, May 9, 2003.

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  1. Almost Fast

    Almost Fast Guest

    Where can I buy a bushing style track chain? I want to be sure not to let it fall off
    while riding...
     
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  2. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    On 9 May 2003 09:47:54 -0700, [email protected] (almost fast) wrote:

    >Where can I buy a bushing style track chain? I want to be sure not to let it fall off while
    >riding...

    You should avoid throwing the chain on a track bike regardless of its construction.

    Counting finish options, you'll find a selection of six chain models with full bushings supporting
    their rollers on the "components" page of the track section of our website. The manufacturers
    include HKK, Izumi and Wippermann. All of them are in stock.

    Take the scenic route through the website from the URL in the signature lines below, or go direct
    to the track section of the site at http://www.businesscycles.com/track.htm, then "components",
    then "chains".

    -------------------------------
    http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
    twentieth year. Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
    -------------------------------
     
  3. Almost Fast

    Almost Fast Guest

    I know of a few ways to help improve the chances of keeping my chain on (chain line, full tooth
    forms, tension). Bushing chains seem stiffer, which I think also helps. What else?

    Should I consider bushless chains if I get the rest right? The SRAM PC1 I have seems awfully
    flexible and sloppy compared to an old 5-speed 3/32 chain I installed.

    John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 9 May 2003 09:47:54 -0700, [email protected] (almost fast) wrote:
    >
    > >Where can I buy a bushing style track chain? I want to be sure not to let it fall off while
    > >riding...
    >
    > You should avoid throwing the chain on a track bike regardless of its construction.
    >
    > Counting finish options, you'll find a selection of six chain models with full bushings supporting
    > their rollers on the "components" page of the track section of our website. The manufacturers
    > include HKK, Izumi and Wippermann. All of them are in stock.
    >
    > Take the scenic route through the website from the URL in the signature lines below, or go direct
    > to the track section of the site at http://www.businesscycles.com/track.htm, then "components",
    > then "chains".
    >
    > -------------------------------
    > http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
    > twentieth year. Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
    > -------------------------------
     
  4. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    On 10 May 2003 08:09:56 -0700, [email protected] (almost fast) wrote:

    >I know of a few ways to help improve the chances of keeping my chain on (chain line, full tooth
    >forms, tension). Bushing chains seem stiffer, which I think also helps. What else?
    >
    >Should I consider bushless chains if I get the rest right? The SRAM PC1 I have seems awfully
    >flexible and sloppy compared to an old 5-speed 3/32 chain I installed.

    Lateral chain stiffness has been a quality long prized by track riders. I've given this subject some
    thought and, although it may be heretical to suggest, I'm not so sure anymore that lateral stiffness
    is by itself a significant virtue. In fact, in situations where the bike's chainline is compromised,
    a laterally flexible chain may actually tolerate the resulting deflection better than a chain whose
    lack of compliance expects and demands that the chainline be straight.

    There are other considerations, however, that militates in favor of chains that are resistant to
    side-to-side flex where the chainline *is* accurate. However, the lateral stiffness may be less a
    desirable trait in itself than the result of other characteristics that make the chain stiff. Since
    Sheldon has made it "Latin Month" on r.b.t., beware of the fallacious logic of "ad hoc, ergo propter
    hoc" reasoning.

    The rollers of chains that are supported by full bushings will generally have higher load carrying
    capabilities than bushingless chains whose rollers are borne by bulges stamped into their inner link
    plates. Since many track events put large peak loads on the chain (standing-start time trials,
    sprinting, etc.), fully bushed chains should ordinarily be more capable of dealing with those loads
    than bushingless ones in these circumstances. The bushings will minimize the lateral flexibility of
    the chain.

    Additionally, most modern bushingless chains designed for multi-speed use have had their link plates
    bulged, bevelled, chamfered, contoured, cut away and otherwise shaped to actually make it easier for
    the chain to slide off the gear to which it's currently engaged. That's obviously not a welcome
    feature in a track bike. The ideal link profile for a track chain will be a shape that helps keep
    the links captive on the sprockets they engage (rather than to facilitate shifting), and the
    resulting generous link proportions may also restrict side flex in the chain. That there are limited
    choices of
    3/32" chains that fit this description any more and that have fully bushed roller support is what
    likely keeps 1/8" drivetrain parts the predominant format chosen by track riders.

    -------------------------------
    http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
    twentieth year. Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
    -------------------------------
     
  5. Ant

    Ant Guest

    [email protected] (almost fast) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I know of a few ways to help improve the chances of keeping my chain on (chain line, full tooth
    > forms, tension). Bushing chains seem stiffer, which I think also helps. What else?
    >
    > Should I consider bushless chains if I get the rest right? The SRAM PC1 I have seems awfully
    > flexible and sloppy compared to an old 5-speed 3/32 chain I installed.
    \

    if you used google to check the ng, yould see this link from the previous thread of the same name

    http://www.damonrinard.com/chain_stiffness.htm

    speaks to all your questions, i think. cheers

    anthony
     
  6. Almost Fast

    Almost Fast Guest

    [email protected] (ant) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (almost fast) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > I know of a few ways to help improve the chances of keeping my chain on (chain line, full tooth
    > > forms, tension). Bushing chains seem stiffer, which I think also helps. What else?
    > >
    > > Should I consider bushless chains if I get the rest right? The SRAM PC1 I have seems awfully
    > > flexible and sloppy compared to an old 5-speed 3/32 chain I installed.
    > \
    >
    > if you used google to check the ng, yould see this link from the previous thread of the same name
    >
    > http://www.damonrinard.com/chain_stiffness.htm
    >
    > speaks to all your questions, i think. cheers
    >
    > anthony

    Thanks! That looks like good info.

    Wonder how modern track chains compare? I can measure the ones I've got (SRAM and a few others). Can
    anyone measure ones I might consider buying? HKK? IZUMI? Wippermann?

    TIA!
     
  7. Almost Fast

    Almost Fast Guest

    Thanks for the info.

    So, just to make sure I understand, you're recommending several chain features for a track bike
    chain, and if the chainline is good, you're also recommending a stiff chain, right?

    Any chance you could measure some of the chains you sell as in that link? Sorry, I don't have the
    URL at hand right now...

    John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 10 May 2003 08:09:56 -0700, [email protected] (almost fast) wrote:
    >
    > >I know of a few ways to help improve the chances of keeping my chain on (chain line, full tooth
    > >forms, tension). Bushing chains seem stiffer, which I think also helps. What else?
    > >
    > >Should I consider bushless chains if I get the rest right? The SRAM PC1 I have seems awfully
    > >flexible and sloppy compared to an old 5-speed 3/32 chain I installed.
    >
    > Lateral chain stiffness has been a quality long prized by track riders. I've given this subject
    > some thought and, although it may be heretical to suggest, I'm not so sure anymore that lateral
    > stiffness is by itself a significant virtue. In fact, in situations where the bike's chainline is
    > compromised, a laterally flexible chain may actually tolerate the resulting deflection better than
    > a chain whose lack of compliance expects and demands that the chainline be straight.
    >
    > There are other considerations, however, that militates in favor of chains that are resistant to
    > side-to-side flex where the chainline *is* accurate. However, the lateral stiffness may be less a
    > desirable trait in itself than the result of other characteristics that make the chain stiff.
    > Since Sheldon has made it "Latin Month" on r.b.t., beware of the fallacious logic of "ad hoc, ergo
    > propter hoc" reasoning.
    >
    > The rollers of chains that are supported by full bushings will generally have higher load carrying
    > capabilities than bushingless chains whose rollers are borne by bulges stamped into their inner
    > link plates. Since many track events put large peak loads on the chain (standing-start time
    > trials, sprinting, etc.), fully bushed chains should ordinarily be more capable of dealing with
    > those loads than bushingless ones in these circumstances. The bushings will minimize the lateral
    > flexibility of the chain.
    >
    > Additionally, most modern bushingless chains designed for multi-speed use have had their link
    > plates bulged, bevelled, chamfered, contoured, cut away and otherwise shaped to actually make it
    > easier for the chain to slide off the gear to which it's currently engaged. That's obviously not a
    > welcome feature in a track bike. The ideal link profile for a track chain will be a shape that
    > helps keep the links captive on the sprockets they engage (rather than to facilitate shifting),
    > and the resulting generous link proportions may also restrict side flex in the chain. That there
    > are limited choices of
    > 3/32" chains that fit this description any more and that have fully bushed roller support is what
    > likely keeps 1/8" drivetrain parts the predominant format chosen by track riders.
    >
    >
    > -------------------------------
    > http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
    > twentieth year. Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
    > -------------------------------
     
  8. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    On 10 May 2003 19:52:21 -0700, [email protected] (almost fast) wrote:

    >Thanks for the info.
    >
    >So, just to make sure I understand, you're recommending several chain features for a track bike
    >chain, and if the chainline is good, you're also recommending a stiff chain, right?

    In a properly aligned frame where the combination of crank, bottom bracket and hub work in concert
    to provide a straight chainline, I suggest that you use a chain with precision rollers running on
    full bushings and that has link plates whose shapes haven't been manipulated to facilitate shifting.
    In general, if you find a chain that satisfies these two characteristics, it will likely also be
    relatively resistant to lateral flex. That the chain is stiff isn't necessarily an intrinsic virtue
    (and may be counterproductive if the chainline is off), but rather just a result of other features
    (bushed design, full link plate shapes) that are desirable in a track chain. For what it's worth, I
    ordinarily also encourage people to stick with chainrings, sprockets and chains whose nominal width
    specifications are all the same (all 1/8" or all 3/32").

    The Latin phrase I butchered in my first reply should have read "cum hoc, ergo propter hoc"* (with
    this, therefore because of this). If a rider fits a stiff chain on his track bike and finds it works
    better than the one it replaced, he might erroneously think that the stiffness alone made the
    improvement, rather than properly attributing the changes to full bushings for the rollers and/or
    improved shape of the link plates compared to his old one.

    >Any chance you could measure some of the chains you sell as in that link? Sorry, I don't have the
    >URL at hand right now...

    I assume you're referring to the Damon Rinard pages. None whatsoever. As noted above, I don't find
    stiffness alone to be the meaningful measure of a track chain's usefulness.

    * - Funny how my spellchekcer didn't catch this. Anybody else find it curious that Sheldon B can
    apparently speak Latin like a native despite his protests that he's not actually one of the gods?

    >John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote...
    >> On 10 May 2003 08:09:56 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >> >I know of a few ways to help improve the chances of keeping my chain on (chain line, full tooth
    >> >forms, tension). Bushing chains seem stiffer, which I think also helps. What else?
    >> >
    >> >Should I consider bushless chains if I get the rest right? The SRAM PC1 I have seems awfully
    >> >flexible and sloppy compared to an old 5-speed 3/32 chain I installed.
    >>
    >> Lateral chain stiffness has been a quality long prized by track riders. I've given this subject
    >> some thought and, although it may be heretical to suggest, I'm not so sure anymore that lateral
    >> stiffness is by itself a significant virtue. In fact, in situations where the bike's chainline is
    >> compromised, a laterally flexible chain may actually tolerate the resulting deflection better
    >> than a chain whose lack of compliance expects and demands that the chainline be straight.
    >>
    >> There are other considerations, however, that militates in favor of chains that are resistant to
    >> side-to-side flex where the chainline *is* accurate. However, the lateral stiffness may be less a
    >> desirable trait in itself than the result of other characteristics that make the chain stiff.
    >> Since Sheldon has made it "Latin Month" on r.b.t., beware of the fallacious logic of "ad hoc,
    >> ergo propter hoc" reasoning.
    >>
    >> The rollers of chains that are supported by full bushings will generally have higher load
    >> carrying capabilities than bushingless chains whose rollers are borne by bulges stamped into
    >> their inner link plates. Since many track events put large peak loads on the chain
    >> (standing-start time trials, sprinting, etc.), fully bushed chains should ordinarily be more
    >> capable of dealing with those loads than bushingless ones in these circumstances. The bushings
    >> will minimize the lateral flexibility of the chain.
    >>
    >> Additionally, most modern bushingless chains designed for multi-speed use have had their link
    >> plates bulged, bevelled, chamfered, contoured, cut away and otherwise shaped to actually make it
    >> easier for the chain to slide off the gear to which it's currently engaged. That's obviously not
    >> a welcome feature in a track bike. The ideal link profile for a track chain will be a shape that
    >> helps keep the links captive on the sprockets they engage (rather than to facilitate shifting),
    >> and the resulting generous link proportions may also restrict side flex in the chain. That there
    >> are limited choices of
    >> 3/32" chains that fit this description any more and that have fully bushed roller support is what
    >> likely keeps 1/8" drivetrain parts the predominant format chosen by track riders.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles Miami,
    Florida 305-273-4440
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now in our twentieth year. Our catalogue of track equipment: seventh
    year online
     
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