Track hubs

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Tim Woodall, Apr 1, 2003.

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  1. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    I'm planning to convert an old bike to a fixed gear. As I have never tried riding a fixed gear
    before I don't want to spend too much money in case I decide I really don't like it.

    The existing frame spacing is 126mm. Sheldon Brown suggests that a single step of OLN shouldn't
    be too much of a problem without respacing and, presumably, I could use spacers to widen a 120mm
    hub anyway.

    The obvious solution is the Goldtec flip flop hub but I'm sure I can get something a lot cheaper to
    experiment with first. (Any suggestions?)

    I'm also planning on building this wheel myself - which will be the first wheel I have built and
    ridden on - and if I do something very wrong and break the hub I would rather it was a 30GBP job
    rather than the 60+GBP Goldtec hubs :)

    So do people have suggestions for hub, rim and lacing bearing in mind that at this stage I am more
    interested in keeping costs down rather than building the best wheel I possibly could. (OTOH, it
    doesn't need to be within a budget - and if I try it and hate it presumably it would be easier to
    resell a good hub/wheel than a budget model)

    Finally, what bottom bracket and or crankset should I be using - is the existing (I guess 118mm BB)
    and spare 42/52 cranks[1] I have likely to be OK? Presumably if I use spacers to widen the OLN to
    126mm then I have a bit of leaway anyway - where do you get spacers from?

    Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

    Regards,

    Tim.

    [1] I'm assuming that biopace rings aren't a good idea on a fixed/single speed :)

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
    Tags:


  2. Tim Hall

    Tim Hall Guest

    On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:00:56 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I'm planning to convert an old bike to a fixed gear. As I have never tried riding a fixed gear
    >before I don't want to spend too much money in case I decide I really don't like it.
    >

    <snip>

    Given that (1) you don't want to spend too much money at first and (2) you haven't built a wheel
    before, a cheaper route is to get a cheapo wheel with screw on hub. (25 quid from your LBS, quality
    variable). Get the chain line right with your existing chain set by using spacers, luck, and a screw
    on sprocket. You might need to re dish the wheel. The sprockets tend to have a step on one side so
    if they're flipped over the chain line moves.

    Try that for a bit then go down the wheel building and Goldtec hub route.

    Tim
    --

    fast and gripping, non pompous, glossy and credible.
     
  3. Alex Graham

    Alex Graham Guest

    Tim Hall wrote:

    > Given that (1) you don't want to spend too much money at first and (2) you haven't built a wheel
    > before, a cheaper route is to get a cheapo wheel with screw on hub. (25 quid from your LBS,
    > quality variable). Get the chain line right with your existing chain set by using spacers, luck,
    > and a screw on sprocket. You might need to re dish the wheel. The sprockets tend to have a step on
    > one side so if they're flipped over the chain line moves.

    Yep, I second that - your bike probably has a screw on freewheel, so just unscrew that, and a track
    sprocket will screw straight on. Then get an old bottom bracket lockring and screw that on. If you
    get the sprocket on very tight (it will be once youve ridden it) then hammer the lockring round with
    a hammer and centrepunch.

    You will probably have to swap the spacers around and shift the hub accross. Then reverse the wheel
    dish (it will look wierd) and youre sorted. A 52 or 42T chainwheel is fine, just watch out for crank
    length if its a low BB height ;) If you put the chainring on the inner position rather than outer
    that will help to correct the chainline. If its still wrong (mine was) then try and get the hub even
    further accross by playing with spacers, or change the BB spindle.

    Thats el cheapo option. It only costs the price of a sprocket!

    HTH
    --

    -Alex

    ----------------------------------
    [email protected]

    http://alexpg.ath.cx:3353/cycling.php http://www.westerleycycling.org.uk
    ----------------------------------
     
  4. Tim Woodall wrote:

    > I'm planning to convert an old bike to a fixed gear. As I have never tried riding a fixed gear
    > before I don't want to spend too much money in case I decide I really don't like it.

    Warning, it's addictive! It takes a couple of weeks to get used to it, but once you do, it's a
    lot more fun!

    > The existing frame spacing is 126mm. Sheldon Brown suggests that a single step of OLN shouldn't
    > be too much of a problem without respacing and, presumably, I could use spacers to widen a 120mm
    > hub anyway.
    >
    > The obvious solution is the Goldtec flip flop hub but I'm sure I can get something a lot cheaper
    > to experiment with first. (Any suggestions?)
    >
    > I'm also planning on building this wheel myself - which will be the first wheel I have built and
    > ridden on - and if I do something very wrong and break the hub I would rather it was a 30GBP job
    > rather than the 60+GBP Goldtec hubs :)

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

    > So do people have suggestions for hub, rim and lacing bearing in mind that at this stage I am more
    > interested in keeping costs down rather than building the best wheel I possibly could. (OTOH, it
    > doesn't need to be within a budget - and if I try it and hate it presumably it would be easier to
    > resell a good hub/wheel than a budget model)

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed

    > Finally, what bottom bracket and or crankset should I be using - is the existing (I guess 118mm
    > BB) and spare 42/52 cranks[1] I have likely to be OK?

    Yes. The inner ring on a typical double crankset usually provides pretty decent chainline with a
    typical track hub.

    See also http://sheldonbrown.com/chainline

    > Presumably if I use spacers to widen the OLN to 126mm then I have a bit of leaway anyway - where
    > do you get spacers from?

    Any bike shop should have rear axle spacers.

    > [1] I'm assuming that biopace rings aren't a good idea on a fixed/single speed :)

    Many people assume this, but they're incorrect! I use Biopace on several of my own fixed-gear bikes
    with no ill effects. Makes my knees happier.

    Sheldon "Counter-Intuitive" Brown +----------------------------------------------------+
    | War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. | -Ambrose Bierce |
    +----------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  5. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On Thu, 03 Apr 2003 11:33:57 -0500, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Tim Woodall wrote:
    >
    >> I'm also planning on building this wheel myself - which will be the first wheel I have built and
    >> ridden on - and if I do something very wrong and break the hub I would rather it was a 30GBP job
    >> rather than the 60+GBP Goldtec hubs :)
    >
    > See: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
    >
    I've seen that - thanks! The existing hub has sheared around the centre. It hasn't quite separated
    completely but I've dismantled the wheel and removed the axle and I reckon I could break it by hand
    with a bit of flexing. However, for practice I then rebuilt the wheel using this hub on the grounds
    that I really couldn't break anything any worse than it already was.

    Your instructions made it surprisingly easy. There was one trick I "discovered[1]" that you don't
    list and that is when initially screwing the nipples down before starting to tension the wheel, if
    you get the slots all lined up it is easy to see when you have done a half or quarter turn of the
    nipple. Its also easier to release the spoke windup as you can see the spoke twisting before the
    nipple tightens and you can then overtighten and then wind it back without losing track of how far
    you have actually turned the nipple.

    The one disappointment I had was the label on the hub. I had carefully positioned the first spoke so
    that the label would be visible through the valve hole. Got the first 18 spokes in which took quite
    a long time as I couldn't work out how to hold everything steady and it is fairly easy to take the
    spoke to the wrong hole on the rim although I only had to undo two where I missed out a place on the
    tim. Then the first leading spoke ...... SHIT, I was twisting the hub the wrong way when judging
    where to put the first spoke so the label was almost 180 degrees from where it should have been. But
    I wasn't going to undo it all again just for that!

    I also tried stress relieving with an old left crank but I didn't get many "pings". I assume this
    was because the (old) spokes were already pretty much the correct shape for this rim and hub. Given
    that the hub was already broken I wasn't gentle about it either. If this had been my first attempt
    with a brand new hub I might have worried about damaging the hub.

    I didn't actually try riding on the wheel, a combination of the frame it goes in having nothing
    other than a headset fitted at the moment and also the broken hub which I suspect could easily shear
    completely with unknown (to me) consequences.

    [1] I suspect it is faster to do it by feel/experience but "It works for me (TM)"

    > See: http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed See also http://sheldonbrown.com/chainline

    It was these pages that made me consider trying this mad idea :)

    >> [1] I'm assuming that biopace rings aren't a good idea on a fixed/single speed :)
    >
    > Many people assume this, but they're incorrect! I use Biopace on several of my own fixed-gear
    > bikes with no ill effects. Makes my knees happier.
    >
    I had assumed that a half circumference would vary depending on rotation requiring a variable length
    chain line although now I have actually thought about it a bit I wouldn't like to bet either way.

    (I would be astonished if the chainline didn't vary a tiny amount depending on the rotation due to
    the angle at the rear sprocket changing slightly but I can accept that this is going to be fractions
    of a milimeter and can be safely ignored)

    > Sheldon "Counter-Intuitive" Brown

    Thanks for your website. It's a veritable goldmine.

    Regards,

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  6. Al_mossah

    Al_mossah Guest

    I built a front wheel using Sheldon Brown's instructions. They are superb, so good that I've only
    had to use them once. I've done 4,000 miles on the wheel so far, no problems.

    One problem I do have is rounding off the corners on hte female part of spokes (is there a better
    name?) when I adjust them. This causes me to have to use a mole-type of wrench to grip them, which
    tends to crush and deform the threads, which must result in a weakening.

    Any suggestions? What are the best keys to use?
     
  7. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:41:24 +0000 (UTC), al_Mossah <[email protected]> wrote:
    > One problem I do have is rounding off the corners on hte female part of spokes (is there a better
    > name?) when I adjust them. This causes me to have
    Nipple.

    Regards,

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    "al_Mossah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > One problem I do have is rounding off the corners on hte female part of spokes (is there a better
    > name?) when I adjust them. This causes me to
    have
    > to use a mole-type of wrench to grip them, which tends to crush and deform the threads, which must
    > result in a weakening.
    >
    > Any suggestions? What are the best keys to use?

    Spokey. (or the park one). They both attach on three corners rather than two. I've got a spokey and
    find it nice and comfortable to use as well.

    I think settle sell them (they had some in stock last time I was there).

    cheers, clive
     
  9. "al_Mossah" <[email protected]> wrote: ( One problem I do have is rounding off
    the corners on hte female part of ) spokes (is there a better name?) when I adjust them.

    Nipples. (Cries of "somebody call?" heard in the distance.)

    ( Any suggestions? What are the best keys to use?

    I swear by a small hexagonal cylinder made by Cyclo, not to be confused with those evil chromed
    crown multiple nipple keys that are so soft that they round off. This is a little black thing about
    the size and shape of the Howzat[1] hexagonal cylindrical dice, but with a deep (almost) rectangular
    slot along the length of one edge, and a capstan-style bar across it to turn it by. Mine's 14 gague
    at one end and 15 gague at the other, and the slight narrowing means it fits snugly along most of
    the length of the flats on the nipple, and I've never had it slip on a nipple once. It's a joy to
    use, so much so that it's almost frustrating that my wheels are true.

    __
    [1] Hello, Guy.
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    "Geraint Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > ( Any suggestions? What are the best keys to use?
    >
    > I swear by a small hexagonal cylinder made by Cyclo, not to be confused with those evil chromed
    > crown multiple nipple keys that are so soft that they round off. This is a little black thing
    > about the size and shape of the Howzat[1] hexagonal cylindrical dice, but with a deep (almost)
    > rectangular slot along the length of one edge, and a capstan-style bar across it to turn it by.
    > Mine's 14 gague at one end and 15 gague at the other, and the slight narrowing means it fits
    > snugly along most of the length of the flats on the nipple, and I've never had it slip on a nipple
    > once. It's a joy to use, so much so that it's almost frustrating that my wheels are true.

    I was going to say don't get one of those, but I didn't know who made them...

    I had one of those. Yes, no trouble with slipping. But it hurt my fingers to use - the big plastic
    disc of the spokey is so much nicer.

    cheers, clive
     
  11. Ianb

    Ianb Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Tim Woodall wrote:
    >
    > > I'm planning to convert an old bike to a fixed gear. As I have never
    tried
    > > riding a fixed gear before I don't want to spend too much money in case
    I
    > > decide I really don't like it.
    >
    > Warning, it's addictive! It takes a couple of weeks to get used to it, but once you do, it's a lot
    > more fun!
    >

    There is one point about converting to fixed wheel that is easily overlooked initially. You do say
    it is an old frame so you may be ok. Before even thinking about it, check your rear wheel dropout.
    If it is vertical (as most modern frames seem to be) you will not be able to adjust the chain
    tension. You need forward (or rear) facing dropouts so that the wheel can be slid back to tension
    the chain (remove a link if this does not give enough adjustment). On a single free/hub gear it is
    normal to suggest about 1/2" play in the chain. On a fixed IMO you need the chain to be tight so
    that on switching to braking mode there is no slack to take up. Further to this a cotterless
    chainset is better than a cottered one as its chainring should be concentric with the bb spindle
    whereas a cottered one MUST be eccentric by a mm or so (on my cottered one the slack varied from 0.0
    to .5" depending on crank angle).
    --
    IanB

    swap my names around to reply to me
     
  12. al_Mossah wrote:
    > I built a front wheel using Sheldon Brown's instructions. They are superb, so good that I've only
    > had to use them once.

    Glad they helped you.

    > I've done 4,000 miles on the wheel so far, no problems.
    >
    > One problem I do have is rounding off the corners on hte female part of spokes (is there a better
    > name?) when I adjust them. This causes me to have to use a mole-type of wrench to grip them, which
    > tends to crush and deform the threads, which must result in a weakening.
    >
    > Any suggestions?

    You did lubricate the spoke threads and the edges of the spoke holes in the rim, I trust?

    > What are the best keys to use?

    The best is the outlandishly expensive DT unit, but you need to be a bit crackers to drop 30 guineas
    on a nipple key!

    The VAR professional model is more reasonable, and, like the DT, contacts 3 of the 4 flats on the
    nipple. The VAR isn't as nice ergonomically, though, and isn't _quite_ as precise a fit.

    The inexpensive Spokey is my favorit among cheapos, also gripping 3 flats, but not to much depth.

    I know many people who like the Park keys (or "spoke wrenches" as we call them west of the Atlantic)
    but I'm not among them.

    You can see photos of these on my Website at:

    http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools-h-z.html#spokewrenches

    Sheldon "I Use DT, But Never Claimed To Be Sane" Brown +-----------------------------+
    | Razors pain you; | Rivers are damp; | Acids stain you; | And drugs cause cramp; | Guns aren't
    | lawful; | Nooses give; | Gas smells awful; | You might as well live. | --Dorothy Parker |
    +-----------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
    617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
    http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  13. David Nutter

    David Nutter Guest

    IanB <[email protected]> said:
    >
    > Further to this a cotterless chainset is better than a cottered one as its chainring should be
    > concentric with the bb spindle whereas a cottered one MUST be eccentric by a mm or so (on my
    > cottered one the slack varied from 0.0 to .5" depending on crank angle).

    If you don't mind me asking, how much of a problem was this and how did it manifest itself? You see
    my fixed gear bicycle-to-be still has its original cottered chainset and if the excess slack is
    likely to cause dangerous derailments or something equally unpleasant I'd rather replace it now
    while the bike is still in bits.

    Regards,

    -david
     
  14. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > The inexpensive Spokey is my favorit among cheapos, also gripping 3 flats, but not to much depth.

    There is a "Pro" version which grips more nipple.

    ~PB
     
  15. Alex Graham

    Alex Graham Guest

    On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Pete Biggs wrote:

    > Sheldon Brown wrote:
    >
    > > The inexpensive Spokey is my favorit among cheapos, also gripping 3 flats, but not to much
    > > depth.
    >
    > There is a "Pro" version which grips more nipple.

    I had to smile when I read that! :eek:)

    I'll stop being puerile now...

    --
    ----------------------+ Alex Graham | [email protected] | ----------------------+
     
  16. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Alex Graham wrote:

    >>> The inexpensive Spokey is my favorit among cheapos, also gripping 3 flats, but not to much
    >>> depth.
    >>
    >> There is a "Pro" version which grips more nipple.
    >
    > I had to smile when I read that! :eek:)
    >
    > I'll stop being puerile now...

    That's ok. I was expecting some jokes! :)

    ~PB
     
  17. Al_mossah

    Al_mossah Guest

    How could I forget nipples!

    Anyway, thanks for the advice. And no, I did not lubricate them. Oh well, when they go, they go.

    Peter.

    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Alex Graham wrote:
    >
    > >>> The inexpensive Spokey is my favorit among cheapos, also gripping 3 flats, but not to much
    > >>> depth.
    > >>
    > >> There is a "Pro" version which grips more nipple.
    > >
    > > I had to smile when I read that! :eek:)
    > >
    > > I'll stop being puerile now...
    >
    > That's ok. I was expecting some jokes! :)
    >
    > ~PB
     
  18. David Nutter <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > IanB <[email protected]> said:
    > >
    > > Further to this a cotterless chainset is better than a cottered one as its
    chainring
    > > should be concentric with the bb spindle whereas a cottered one MUST be eccentric by a mm or so
    > > (on my cottered one the slack varied from 0.0 to .5" depending on crank angle).
    >
    > If you don't mind me asking, how much of a problem was this and how did it manifest itself? You
    > see my fixed gear bicycle-to-be still has its
    original
    > cottered chainset and if the excess slack is likely to cause dangerous derailments or something
    > equally unpleasant I'd rather replace it now
    while
    > the bike is still in bits.
    >

    The trick for getting your chainring concentric with the axle was to slightly loosen the chainring
    bolts, just enough that they would move when you knocked the chainring with a mallet, but not
    otherwise. When the chain is at its tightest, tap the front of the chainring backwards towards the
    rear hub (or knock the over-tight top run of the chain downwards). When its as good as you can get,
    tighten up the chainring bolts and check/adjust chain tension.

    Andrew
     
  19. Alex Graham

    Alex Graham Guest

    On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Andrew Sweetman wrote:
    > The trick for getting your chainring concentric with the axle was to slightly loosen the chainring
    > bolts, just enough that they would move when you knocked the chainring with a mallet, but not
    > otherwise. When the chain is at its tightest, tap the front of the chainring backwards towards the
    > rear hub (or knock the over-tight top run of the chain downwards). When its as good as you can
    > get, tighten up the chainring bolts and check/adjust chain tension.

    I tried doing this on my fixed gear bike, but found that the chainring wouldnt move any further in
    the direction it needed to. Is it likely that my chainring isnt perfectly circular, or would filing
    a bit off the inner part of the chainring where its butted up against the spider solve it?

    cheers,

    -Alex

    --
    ----------------------+ Alex Graham | [email protected] | ----------------------+
     
  20. David Nutter

    David Nutter Guest

    Andrew Sweetman <[email protected]> said:
    >
    >> If you don't mind me asking, how much of a problem was this and how did it manifest itself?

    *snip*

    > The trick for getting your chainring concentric with the axle was to slightly loosen the chainring
    > bolts, just enough that they would move when you knocked the chainring with a mallet, but not
    > otherwise. When the chain is at its tightest, tap the front of the chainring backwards towards the
    > rear hub (or knock the over-tight top run of the chain downwards). When its as good as you can
    > get, tighten up the chainring bolts and check/adjust chain tension.

    I assumed that the OP was saying that cottered chainsets were inherently eccentric in a way that
    cannot be corrected by moving the chainrings around, but I'm sure your advice will be useful; I can
    at least minimize any problems that appear when I put the chain on.

    Anyway I've pretty much decided to replace the wretched things as I happened to be in the LBS today
    where I was shown a racing frame with carbon fork that weighed significantly less than my steel
    left crank :/

    I left with a pair of fingerless mitts. Big spender, me...

    Regards,

    -david
     
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