Traffic calming looks dangerous to me

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Eatmorepies, Apr 1, 2003.

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  1. Eatmorepies

    Eatmorepies Guest

    They are traffic calming the A road than runs through my village. The red coating seems ok but at
    one end they are putting a central reservation in to narrow the carriageway. There will not be
    enough room for a cycle and a car in the narrowed part. Currently the road is plenty wide enough
    for cars to pull out and pass quite safely. I recall that someone posted about the danger of this
    system and how it has causes accidents - well, accidents have been caused by car drivers trying to
    get past bikes.

    Is this the case? Can anyone quote me any statistics before I have a chat with the engineers?

    Thanks

    John
     
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  2. Kit Wolf

    Kit Wolf Guest

    On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 18:51:47 +0100, Eatmorepies wrote:

    > They are traffic calming the A road than runs through my village. The red coating seems ok but at
    > one end they are putting a central reservation in to narrow the carriageway. There will not be
    > enough room for a cycle and a car in the narrowed part. Currently the road is plenty wide enough
    > for cars to pull out and pass quite safely. I recall that someone posted about the danger of this
    > system and how it has causes accidents - well, accidents have been caused by car drivers trying to
    > get past bikes.
    >
    > Is this the case? Can anyone quote me any statistics before I have a chat with the engineers?
    >
    Not offhand, but I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...

    http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG

    Beware of imitations, like channels the width of the gutter with really small bicycle symbols
    painted in them.

    Kit

    > Thanks
    >
    > John
     
  3. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Guest

    On Tue, 01 Apr, Kit Wolf <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Not offhand, but I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...
    >
    > http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG
    >
    > Beware of imitations, like channels the width of the gutter with really small bicycle symbols
    > painted in them.

    Where the local imbeciles have put in anything like that round here, they've added give-way lines at
    the end of the cycle bit. Now, they don't actuially slow down a cyclist, but you can bet that a
    cager scumbag will get off scot-free for mowing down any cyclist in the vicinity of such
    abominations.

    Consequently, I ignore them, and go round the build-out, even if the bike bit is clear of glass,
    rubbish, slippery covers and whatnot.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|
     
  4. Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote: ( > http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG

    The two cars in that picture are both L - two digits - three letters; how likely is that, then? (And
    why hasn't c.j.l.wolf pixelated their number plates?)

    ) Where the local imbeciles have put in anything like that round here, ( they've added give-way
    lines at the end of the cycle bit. Now, they ) don't actuially slow down a cyclist, but you can bet
    that a cager ( scumbag will get off scot-free for mowing down any cyclist in the ) vicinity of such
    abominations. ( ) Consequently, I ignore them, and go round the build-out, even if the ( bike bit
    is clear of glass, rubbish, slippery covers and whatnot.

    You forgot the car/skip/sofa parked in the road at the other end of the gutter masquerading as a
    bicycle by-pass.

    There is one somewhere round here (? Horspath, I forget...) which has one of those black-and-white
    poles with red and white reflectors in the middle of the cycle lane at the far end of the island. It
    appears to be inadvertent, but you can never tell.
     
  5. "Geraint Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote: ( > http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG
    >
    > The two cars in that picture are both L - two digits - three letters; how likely is that, then?
    > (And why hasn't c.j.l.wolf pixelated their number plates?)
    >
    Those drivers are AFAIK just going about their normal business, not involved in anything contentious
    or illegal that would invite any form of reprisal against them - IMO I don't see any legal, security
    or privacy need to hide the index numbers.

    I'm sure I see loads of shots in local papers etc of streets with peoples number plates in full
    view. The only time I usually see pixelated number plates is on crime programmes; and that is IIRC
    only so well-meaning citizens don't inadvertantly waste police time if they should see the car used
    in the reconstruction elsewhere on the local streets!

    After all you would need access to PNC or DVLA computer to trace someone from the number
    plates anyway?

    Alex
     
  6. "Kit Wolf" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > ... I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...
    >
    > http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG

    At first glance this seems OK, but look more closely and you'll start to see the problems:

    The cycle by-pass is still a little narrower than it should be. The desirable minimum width is
    somewhere about 1.5 metres, giving enough room for most designs of tricycles and cycle trailers to
    get through easily - but still narrow enough to discourage most cars. This one looks like it's
    little more than a meter wide.

    The cycle bypass doesn't appear to be signposted as such, with neither a round blue "Cycle route"
    sign, nor a well-painted diagram 1057 on the road. (I don't see the shadow of any sign behind the
    photographer.) The signing for other traffic doesn't seem right either, with the "Give Way" and the
    black and white chevrons stuck up in the air like that. Where's the "Keep right" arrow? And the
    "Traffic in other direction has priority" sign?

    Look even closer at the red car: It's leaning slightly away from the camera as it swings back to the
    left side of the road. But just how far left is it going to go? And is the two metre long white line
    beyond the island, the one that's meant to mark the edge of a cycle lane, really going to do
    anything to stop cyclists using the by-pass from being side-swiped as they emerge beyond it?

    And what happens to cyclists going the other way? Are cars really going to stop and Give Way just
    for a bicycle coming up the hill, or are they just going to squeeze through anyway?

    The only design of road narrowing I've found that I really like is the gateway feature at the south
    side of Newbridge. It's not designed so much to reduce speeds as to enforce an HGV ban through the
    village, but I've never seen anyone driving through it quickly. And I've never once had a problem
    here with cars trying to squeeze past me when I'm cycling through it - even though there's not a
    single bit of "provision for bicycles" in the design!
    http://miller_dd.tripod.com/Scottish_Roads/b7030_newbridge.htm

    David D Miller Edinburgh
     
  7. "Mr [email protected] \(2.3 zulu-alpha\) [comms room 2]" <[email protected]> wrote: ( Those drivers are AFAIK
    just going about their normal business, not involved ) in anything contentious or illegal that would
    invite any form of reprisal ( against them - IMO I don't see any legal, security or privacy need to
    hide ) the index numbers.

    Yes. Sorry, I forgot that driving a car on the road was still legal. (It might be
    contentious, though.)
     
  8. "Kit Wolf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...

    > Not offhand, but I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...
    >
    > http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG

    These sort of "features" seem like bad news to me, as they seem like an open invitation for
    motorists to hassle cyclists if they sensibly choose not to use them. They often tend to fill up
    with crap like broken glass, leaves etc which are probably fine if you are riding an MTB, but not if
    you are on a road bike with easily punctured tyres.
     
  9. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

  10. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    There is a good design guide produced by the Scottish Executive, Cycling by Design, that covers
    inter alia, traffic calming measures and their impact on cyclists. They give a number of
    recommendations that you might be able to get your planners to adopt

    The section on road narrowings is at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library2/cbd/cbd-20.asp

    There is also some very good stuff at
    http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezone/campaigning/pinchpoints.html which tells you how to go
    about tackling the planners, recommendations and some good information links

    Good luck

    Tony

    Eatmorepies <[email protected]> wrote:
    > They are traffic calming the A road than runs through my village. The red coating seems ok but at
    > one end they are putting a central reservation in to narrow the carriageway. There will not be
    > enough room for a cycle and a car in the narrowed part. Currently the road is plenty wide enough
    > for cars to pull out and pass quite safely. I recall that someone posted about the danger of this
    > system and how it has causes accidents - well, accidents have been caused by car drivers trying to
    > get past bikes.
    >
    > Is this the case? Can anyone quote me any statistics before I have a chat with the engineers?
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > John
     
  11. Dave Kahn

    Dave Kahn Guest

    "Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > They are traffic calming the A road than runs through my village. The red coating seems ok but at
    > one end they are putting a central reservation in to narrow the carriageway. There will not be
    > enough room for a cycle and a car in the narrowed part.

    Many cyclists seem to be automatically in favour of traffic calming measures. Almost always,
    however, the measures prove unpopular with local residents (mainly because they increase traffic
    noise) and make cycling more dangerous rather than less. Pinch points can be particularly nasty.

    Slowing the traffic may increase the safety of pedestrians crossing the road but I'm not sure how
    you'd offset that against the increased risk to cyclists. It also seems to me that the drivers who
    are actually slowed significantly by the measures seem to be those you wouldn't really worry about
    in the first place. The more aggressive ones take the traffic calming as a technical challenge to be
    negotiated without lifting the throttle.

    --
    Dave...
     
  12. Andy Welch

    Andy Welch Guest

    On 2-Apr-2003, "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > There is a good design guide produced by the Scottish Executive, Cycling by Design, that covers
    > inter alia, traffic calming measures and their impact on cyclists. They give a number of
    > recommendations that you might be able to get your planners to adopt

    Beat me to it. I was just going to post a link to the same excellent site.

    Unfortunately, even up here in the frozen north, they don't actually implement those guidelines. My
    local small town has recently installed a couple of traffic calming measures with no bypass for
    cyclists that completely ignore the guidelines.

    I feel a letter comming on.

    Cheers,

    Andy
     
  13. Ian Walker

    Ian Walker Guest

    On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:51:47 +0100, Eatmorepies <[email protected]> wrote:

    > They are traffic calming the A road than runs through my village. The red coating seems ok

    <snip>

    Having watched the spread of red paint through the nation's towns and villages over the last few
    years I recently found myself thinking: "What would the British think if they saw people from, say,
    Papua New Guinea daubing red paint on their roads in the belief it would protect them from car
    accidents?" They'd probably snigger patronisingly.

    Ian

    --
    Ian Walker Remove the yummy paste in my address to reply. Homepage: http://www.drianwalker.com
     
  14. Ian Walker <[email protected]> wrote: ( Having watched the spread of red paint through the
    nation's towns and ) villages over the last few years I recently found myself thinking: "What (
    would the British think if they saw people from, say, Papua New Guinea ) daubing red paint on their
    roads in the belief it would protect them from ( car accidents?" They'd probably snigger
    patronisingly.

    A colleague who suffered twenty years' exile in the seventies and eighties in the Canadian Rockies
    (my heart bleeds for him, as it did every time I forced myself to go to the conferences he organised
    in the Spring...) said that he missed British "No Parking" signs when he came back -- surely you
    remember: very round, very egg yolk yellow, and on black and yellow posts -- but that he could not
    get used to all this fancy yellow urban road margin decoration that we had gone in for while he was
    away. (That was before the red and green kryptonite.)
     
  15. In message <[email protected]>, Kit Wolf
    <[email protected]> writes
    >On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:32:23 +0100, Adrian Boliston wrote:
    >
    >> "Kit Wolf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:p[email protected]...
    >>
    >>> Not offhand, but I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...
    >>>
    >>> http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG
    >>
    >> These sort of "features" seem like bad news to me, as they seem like an open invitation for
    >> motorists to hassle cyclists if they sensibly choose not to use them. They often tend to fill up
    >> with crap like broken glass, leaves etc which are probably fine if you are riding an MTB, but not
    >> if you are on a road bike with easily punctured tyres.
    >
    >Agreed - but these ones are absolutely clear, and it looks as if they've been there for a while.

    There's something similar near me but the cycle lanes are much narrower than shown in the picture
    and they do get clogged up with rubbish. I guess the street cleaners might have a problem getting a
    machine up them.
    --
    Michael MacClancy
     
  16. Kit Wolf

    Kit Wolf Guest

    On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:32:23 +0100, Adrian Boliston wrote:

    > "Kit Wolf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]...
    >
    >> Not offhand, but I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...
    >>
    >> http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG
    >
    > These sort of "features" seem like bad news to me, as they seem like an open invitation for
    > motorists to hassle cyclists if they sensibly choose not to use them. They often tend to fill up
    > with crap like broken glass, leaves etc which are probably fine if you are riding an MTB, but not
    > if you are on a road bike with easily punctured tyres.

    Agreed - but these ones are absolutely clear, and it looks as if they've been there for a while.
     
  17. Kit Wolf

    Kit Wolf Guest

    On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:22:57 +0100, David D Miller wrote:

    > "Kit Wolf" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> ... I have a picture of a solution that seems OK to me...
    >>
    >> http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/c.j.l.wolf/EPSN0152.JPG
    >
    > At first glance this seems OK, but look more closely and you'll start to see the problems:
    >
    > The cycle by-pass is still a little narrower than it should be. The desirable minimum width is
    > somewhere about 1.5 metres, giving enough room for most designs of tricycles and cycle trailers to
    > get through easily - but still narrow enough to discourage most cars. This one looks like it's
    > little more than a meter wide.
    >
    > The cycle bypass doesn't appear to be signposted as such, with neither a round blue "Cycle route"
    > sign, nor a well-painted diagram 1057 on the road. (I don't see the shadow of any sign behind the
    > photographer.) The signing for other traffic doesn't seem right either, with the "Give Way" and
    > the black and white chevrons stuck up in the air like that. Where's the "Keep right" arrow? And
    > the "Traffic in other direction has priority" sign?
    >
    > Look even closer at the red car: It's leaning slightly away from the camera as it swings back to
    > the left side of the road. But just how far left is it going to go? And is the two metre long
    > white line beyond the island, the one that's meant to mark the edge of a cycle lane, really going
    > to do anything to stop cyclists using the by-pass from being side-swiped as they emerge beyond it?
    >
    > And what happens to cyclists going the other way? Are cars really going to stop and Give Way just
    > for a bicycle coming up the hill, or are they just going to squeeze through anyway?
    >
    >
    > The only design of road narrowing I've found that I really like is the gateway feature at the
    > south side of Newbridge. It's not designed so much to reduce speeds as to enforce an HGV ban
    > through the village, but I've never seen anyone driving through it quickly. And I've never once
    > had a problem here with cars trying to squeeze past me when I'm cycling through it - even though
    > there's not a single bit of "provision for bicycles" in the design!
    > http://miller_dd.tripod.com/Scottish_Roads/b7030_newbridge.htm

    Could you repost the picture - I can't seem to download it.

    Thanks,

    Kit
     
  18. <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > Unfortunately, even up here in the frozen north, they don't actually implement those guidelines.
    > My local small town has recently installed a couple of traffic calming measures with no bypass for
    > cyclists that completely ignore the guidelines.

    I just hope they don't start building these daft cycle bypasses where I live!
     
  19. Rory

    Rory Guest

    "Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > They are traffic calming the A road than runs through my village. The red coating seems ok but at
    > one end they are putting a central reservation in to narrow the carriageway. There will not be
    > enough room for a cycle and a car in the narrowed part.

    It is one lane, there is no passing space - stay slap bang in the middle of that lane: OK they can
    still get you by ploughing into the back of you, but that will require a concious decision to do
    murder....
     
  20. "Rory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > It is one lane, there is no passing space - stay slap bang in the middle of that lane: OK they can
    > still get you by ploughing into the back of you, but that will require a concious decision to do
    > murder....

    I've had a boy racer overtake me recently at a traffic island by him going *the wrong side* of the
    traffic island!
     
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