Traffic Calming vs Bicycles

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Eric Vey, May 31, 2003.

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  1. Zeldabee

    Zeldabee Guest

    [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:
    > >zeldabee [email protected] wrote:
    [brick-paved roads]
    > >
    > >It depends, though. The HRG (West Side bike path) has areas in some intersections that are paved
    > >with brick. The bricks were laid parallel to the direction of the path, with just enough gap
    > >between the bricks to cause a problem for 23c tires, if you hit them just right. In the rain,
    > >those sections can be a little scary.
    >
    > Of course if it's not done right brick paving can be hell to ride on and especially hellish if
    > it's also wet. I think there may even be a race somewhere over in Europe that's rather well known
    > for that. Roubaix something or other... <g>

    Yes... but this was a purpose-built, specially designed *bike* path...it wasn't even intended as a
    MUP (though it's turned into one). Someone did this on purpose.

    --
    z e l d a b e e @ p a n i x . c o m http://NewsReader.Com/
     


  2. [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    >

    > On the plus side, road rash from brick seems to be a bit less severe. Don't ask me how I know the
    > difference between asphalt, concrete, and brick road rashes.
    > <g>

    This seems like a good reason to coat all the roads with Teflon(tm) to minimize "pavement rash."

    Serendipitous discovery.
     
  3. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Hunrobe wrote:

    > >Jym Dyer [email protected]
    >
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I should clarify: I've heard of brick streets (and grew up on them), but this
    > is the first >time I've heard of using them in the name of "traffic calming."
    >
    > In my area anyway brick streets are usually used in the "decorative" part of traffic calming
    > projects, rather like using large concrete planters full of flowers in lieu of just plopping a
    > concrete barrier wall in an intersection. Both will make the traffic slow to navigate around them
    > but the flowers *look* nicer. It's the same with brick paving. You could convert an intersection
    > into a usable traffic circle with concrete but bricking the circle itself is more visually
    > appealing. Of course, when the US Pro Crit Nationals are run on that type of combination surface
    > every year in Downers Grove, IL that surface's major drawback becomes evident if there's been even
    > the slightest bit of rain. On the plus side, road rash from brick seems to be a bit less severe.
    > Don't ask me how I know the difference between asphalt, concrete, and brick road rashes.
    > <g>
    >
    > Regards, Bob Hunt

    I find my REI rain jacket slides better than my MEC rain jacket.
     
  4. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    zeldabee wrote:

    > [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:
    > > >Jym Dyer [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > >I've heard of elevated tables and walkways made of brick, but an entire street? That's a new
    > > >one on me.
    > >
    > > Perhaps brick streets are unusual in the Western U.S. but in the Midwest (and the East I think)
    > > streets were routinely paved with brick well into the 30's and 40's. That's why they are called
    > > "paving bricks". <g>
    >
    > Cobblestones in NYC can be nasty to ride on, especially on a skinny tire road bike.
    >
    > > >Not very bike- friendly, I agree. I agree that a bicycle advisory board or somesuch seems to be
    > > >needed.
    > >
    > > If the grading and maintenance is done properly, brick streets really aren't a whole lot harder
    > > on bicycles and cyclists than most concrete or asphalt surfaces. They are definitely "slippery
    > > when wet" though.
    >
    > It depends, though. The HRG (West Side bike path) has areas in some intersections that are paved
    > with brick. The bricks were laid parallel to the direction of the path, with just enough gap
    > between the bricks to cause a problem for 23c tires, if you hit them just right. In the rain,
    > those sections can be a little scary.
    >
    > --
    > z e l d a b e e @ p a n i x . c o m http://NewsReader.Com/

    Bricks are not only "slippery when wet" they are bumpy. That means you can't corner well because you
    don't 'carve' smoothly thru the curve. Instead, your wheels are bouncing and you can lose it and go
    down wet or dry. Bernie
     
  5. [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    [other attributions rather messed up, so I'll omit]

    > >Cobblestones in NYC can be nasty to ride on, especially on a skinny tire road bike.
    >
    > >> If the grading and maintenance is done properly, brick streets really aren't a whole lot harder
    > >> on bicycles and cyclists than most concrete or asphalt surfaces. They are definitely "slippery
    > >> when wet" though.
    > >
    > >It depends, though. The HRG (West Side bike path) has areas in some intersections that are paved
    > >with brick. The bricks were laid parallel to the direction of the path, with just enough gap
    > >between the bricks to cause a problem for 23c tires, if you hit them just right. In the rain,
    > >those sections can be a little scary.
    >
    > Of course if it's not done right brick paving can be hell to ride on and especially hellish if
    > it's also wet. I think there may even be a race somewhere over in Europe that's rather well known
    > for that. Roubaix something or other...

    Less famously, someone in our bike club regularly leads a "A Taste of Hell" ride where the objective
    is to maximize the amount of cobblestone riding in the minimal amount of riding. You can see the
    ride description here: http://www.cascade.org/EandR/rides_archive/april_2003.cfm; search on "of
    Hell" to find it about halfway down the page.

    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky ([email protected]) Home of the meditative cyclist:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm

    Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky
     
  6. Zeldabee

    Zeldabee Guest

    [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:
    > >[email protected] wrote:
    >
    > >Yes... but this was a purpose-built, specially designed *bike* path...it wasn't even intended as
    > >a MUP (though it's turned into one). Someone did this on purpose.
    >
    > That really stinks but I think you're attributing to malice something that can be explained by
    > incompetence.

    Not really. I do think it's due to incompetence, it's just that someone put those bricks in
    intentionally as part of the design of a bike path. My point was that it wasn't a retrofit.

    > Either way, I'd avoid that route.

    Sometimes it's the fastest way to get downtown on the west side, unless it's a warm sunny day. Then
    you're better off fighting midtown traffic.

    --
    z e l d a b e e @ p a n i x . c o m http://NewsReader.Com/
     
  7. kh6zv9

    kh6zv9 Guest

    Eric Vey <[email protected]> wrote:
    : A few months ago I moved to a small city of 25,000 people. A few days after I arrived and was
    : still moving in, a new street project was begun on a busy 2 lane street. The city began taking up
    : the asphalt surface and replaced it with brick. The neighbors said it was an attempt to change a
    : street that had become a minor artery into a lesser used road for local traffic.

    The geniuses in Riverside California have started to build planters on otherwise safe and wide
    bicyle routes. These planters cause little bottle necks in the road so the bike has to take the lane
    every 100 yards.

    The funny part is they do this in some poorer neighborhoods where there are many bike riders who
    can't afford cars.

    All the planters have tire marks where cars have hit them also.

    --------------------------------
    Bob Masse' [email protected]
    --------------------------------
     
  8. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    >
    >On 04 Jun 2003 16:43:53 -0700, Jym Dyer <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>=v= There is some confusion due to people confusing speed humps with speed bumps, and that
    >>confusions been worsened by people making poor-quality speed bumps and mislabelling them "humps."
    >
    >As not a native of your continent or an english speaking language, could you elaborate on the
    >difference between the two?

    One is a pavement obstruction meant to slow down cars. The other is a pavement obstruction meant to
    slow down cars. :)
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     
  9. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    >Mr. Rodriguez, if you think speed humps are a bad idea on this street, what are the alternatives
    > you'd propose?

    That's a question for a traffic engineer to answer after they have done some traffic surveys. From
    your description I would guess that a "minor suburban arterial" with a 25mph limit sounds
    underposted and it is not surprising that you have people speeding on that road. That is just a
    guess on limited information.
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     
  10. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    >I'm not sure what you're saying. I live in CT. Let me explain two problems to you. On the street
    >where I live, there's an intersection with a 4-way stop (via signs).

    Sounds like a poor choice. If there is that much traffic, you probably need a traffic light. It
    sound more like someone decided to try to use a stop sign to slow traffic down. That is not what
    stop signs are for and so you end up with people rolling through the stop signs.

    >Basically, you can get as many engineers on this problem as you want to. There's no way that the
    >cities involved are going to change the structure of the roads, and they probably can't do it even
    >if they wanted to. There aren't many solutions other than adding a speed bump.

    Sounds like you live on a residential street that people are using as a throughfare, just as you
    describe. What needs to be done is to get these folks to use the major roads for most of their trip.
    There is something on the major roads that is making your streets more attractive. Someone needs to
    see what that is and then make the appropriate changes. Most people in cars want to get to their
    destination in a safe and efficient manner. If you put obstacles in their way, they will try to find
    other ways around.
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     
  11. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Hunrobe wrote:

    > >zeldabee [email protected]
    >
    > wrote in reply to:
    >
    > >>I think you're attributing to malice something that can be explained by incompetence.
    > >
    > >Not really. I do think it's due to incompetence, it's just that someone put those bricks in
    > >intentionally as part of the design of a bike path. My point was that it wasn't a retrofit.
    >
    > Ah, okay. I misunderstood. That's a problem with any construction, especially that which is paid
    > for with public funds. A plan can address all the utilitarian aspects and then somebody decides to
    > "beautify" the project in some way. Sometimes the "beautification" is a plus. At other times it
    > detracts from or even defeats the utility of the design.
    >
    > Regards, Bob Hunt

    yeah, sometimes "beautification" defeats utility. That's why I get out onto "fast" streets leading
    downtown sometimes. Cobblestones don't cut it in the 21st century when one is flying downtown. Best
    Regards, Bernie
     
  12. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Hunrobe wrote:

    > >Bernie [email protected]
    >
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I find my REI rain jacket slides better than my MEC rain jacket.
    >
    > I'm a recreational cyclist. No rain jacket. I just get wet. I have a silver skinsuit that I don't
    > wear if there's *any* chance of rain. Silver lycra starts to resemble SaranWrap (tm) after just 5
    > minutes in even a light rain. I found that out the hard way too. <g>
    >
    > Regards, Bob Hunt

    Well, as an everyday cyclist, I found out that rainsuits like you describe are not worth talking
    about. Best regards, Bernie (from where we measure rainfall by the foot)
     
  13. In article <[email protected]>, Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hunrobe wrote:
    >
    > > >zeldabee [email protected]
    > >
    > > wrote in reply to:
    > >
    > > >>I think you're attributing to malice something that can be explained by incompetence.
    > > >
    > > >Not really. I do think it's due to incompetence, it's just that someone put those bricks in
    > > >intentionally as part of the design of a bike path. My point was that it wasn't a retrofit.

    > yeah, sometimes "beautification" defeats utility. That's why I get out onto "fast" streets leading
    > downtown sometimes. Cobblestones don't cut it in the 21st century when one is flying downtown.
    > Best Regards, Bernie

    You know, the most prestigious race in Vancouver is the Tour de Gastown (formerly the more
    appropriate "Gastown Grand Prix"; it's a criterium). half the course, including one or two tight
    corners, is brick.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  14. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    "Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > You know, the most prestigious race in Vancouver is the Tour de Gastown (formerly the more
    > appropriate "Gastown Grand Prix"; it's a criterium). half the course, including one or two tight
    > corners, is brick.

    Isn't there a steam powered clock there?

    --
    Robin Hubert <[email protected]
     
  15. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:19:33 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Robin
    Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >> You know, the most prestigious race in Vancouver is the Tour de Gastown (formerly the more
    >> appropriate "Gastown Grand Prix"; it's a criterium). half the course, including one or two tight
    >> corners, is brick.
    >
    >Isn't there a steam powered clock there?

    Yep, first one in the world. 'Steamworks" was a local brewery promoting the race.

    Here's the QuickTime movie of the clock http://www.vanvr.com/vanvr/qt/steamclock.html and here's the
    .wav sound. http://www.vanmag.com/sounds/wavs/steamclock.WAV

    The streets in Gastown are brick though sometimes tourist hype says "cobblestones". IIRC, the
    cobblestones are only at the crosswalks and curbs.

    The course is uphill on brick and downhill on asphalt. The corners at Water street are brick.
    http://www.tourdegastown.com/images/maprev800.jpg
    --
    zk
     
  16. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Ryan Cousineau wrote:

    > In article <3EED4[email protected]>, Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Hunrobe wrote:
    > >
    > > > >zeldabee [email protected]
    > > >
    > > > wrote in reply to:
    > > >
    > > > >>I think you're attributing to malice something that can be explained by incompetence.
    > > > >
    > > > >Not really. I do think it's due to incompetence, it's just that someone put those bricks in
    > > > >intentionally as part of the design of a bike path. My point was that it wasn't a retrofit.
    >
    > > yeah, sometimes "beautification" defeats utility. That's why I get out onto "fast" streets
    > > leading downtown sometimes. Cobblestones don't cut it in the 21st century when one is flying
    > > downtown. Best Regards, Bernie
    >
    > You know, the most prestigious race in Vancouver is the Tour de Gastown (formerly the more
    > appropriate "Gastown Grand Prix"; it's a criterium). half the course, including one or two tight
    > corners, is brick.
    >
    > --
    > Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

    I DO know. Been there, watched the race last year. (I was the guy with the old yellow mountain bike
    ;-) I loved the race, but don't care to ride on bricks, cobbles, etc. I get nervous when I see
    gritty bits in the intersection I am left turning thru, if I am making any decent speed. Wet bricks
    are a worry for me. I'd prefer to ride on the best blacktop available when in the city or highway.
    I'm not against attractive city streets - I love Vancouver! And I was born in New Westminster, so
    you know I've ridden on bricks and stones... I just don't want to lose it on them some rainy night.
    BTW, let's not even start on railway tracks crossing roadways. Best regards, Bernie
     
  17. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Robin Hubert wrote:

    > "Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > You know, the most prestigious race in Vancouver is the Tour de Gastown (formerly the more
    > > appropriate "Gastown Grand Prix"; it's a criterium). half the course, including one or two tight
    > > corners, is brick.
    >
    > Isn't there a steam powered clock there?
    >
    > --
    > Robin Hubert <[email protected]>

    That'd be true. Vancouver is like any city. A mix of old and new. The steam clock is pretty neat and
    maybe not a real antique (I don't know), but the steam power is old technology that still powers
    many buildings in the area. Locally it is called "City Steam", and is generated by the city steam
    plant that sells steam to the old downtown core. Bernie
     
  18. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:22:54 -0700, <[email protected]>, Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I'm not against attractive city streets - I love Vancouver! And I was born in New Westminster, so
    >you know I've ridden on bricks and stones... I just don't want to lose it on them some rainy night.
    >BTW, let's not even start on railway tracks crossing roadways. Best regards, Bernie

    Riding the wet planks over Cambie bridge with the street car tracks was one of Vancouver's surest
    tests for a cyclist's steel. The planks were laid lengthwise so there were wheel grabbing spaces
    between some. The safest bet when dark and wet was to pick one 12' wide plank, keep on it and
    don't blink.

    There were also still streets with sections that had been paved with end-grain timber blocks
    existing into the mid seventies.
    --
    zk
     
  19. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Zoot Katz wrote:

    > Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:25:42 -0700, <[email protected]>, Zoot Katz
    > <[email protected]> edited:
    >
    > The safest bet when dark and wet was to ride the crossplanked sidewalk. Otherwise, pick one 12'
    > wide plank, keep on it and don't blink.
    > --
    > zk

    The whole Cambie St Bridge was like this? When did this end? Sounds like a little plank bridge on
    steroids. Bernie
     
  20. Archer

    Archer Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    ...

    > That'd be true. Vancouver is like any city. A mix of old and new. The steam clock is pretty neat
    > and maybe not a real antique (I don't know), but the steam power is old technology that still
    > powers many buildings in the area. Locally it is called "City Steam", and is generated by the city
    > steam plant that sells steam to the old downtown core.

    A lot of cities have that, but in most of them it's only used for heating, and not for producing any
    mechanical work.

    --
    David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
    it's morning".

    Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
     
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