Train or recover? How to mix races and training.

[Andy SG]

So the race season has started, and I try to race more or less every weekend. Some races really wear me down, and I suffer days afterwards to get back to something that can be close to reasonable shape and speed. I don't want to peak now, and would still like to traing in order to improve, but have the following problem.

- If I take some extra time to recover, my overall training is going to drop. If I continue to train even if it is a bit hard, my pace and intesity during traing will suffer. Any thoughts on how to balance the trade-off? How do I make sure that I don't peak if I reduce training intensity and time?

- Strangest thing is that my legs are the limiting factor after races. I'm stiff and don't have any 'snap'. I feel pretty worn out, but the underlying form is good. It feels as if I'm peaking even if I'm worn out, meaning I can ride hard even if I'm tired. I have never trained as hard as this so it might be pure shape, but it feels strange. Is this familiar to any of you? How should I interpretate this? I'm a bit afraid to overtrain but with this feeling it feels as less likely ...


Any input is appriciated.

 

[thekgb]

Andy,
this sounds like a fairly typical routine for me from years past. just about' june or so,with 2 months of racing in my legs, i'd get fatigued, falling into race/recover mode b/c of lack of base, which then lead to weekly mini-tapers, then burn-out. doens't sound like you're there yet but you might be getting close.

After doing this for 3 years, looking back on it, I put most of the onus on 1.) lack of appropriate base (ie CTL) for the amount of racing i wanted to do and 2.) racing just to race (ie: every weekend, sometimes 2 races perweekend) b/c i thought thats how you got good at racing.

the problem with #1 is it's hard to repair base mid-season and keep racing. the problem with #2 is those type of efforts can't be sustained indefinitely. i saw this quote on wattage i think: "you can never go too hard, just too hard too often". sage advice. i needed some downtime, but just wasn't willing to give up the races, which meant race/recover and ultimately loss of fitness. trust me, theres no quicker way to lose motivation than to feel like you're legs are made of lead all week even though you're not training much.

I'd rec: back off intensity and racing for a few weeks and get the snap back. but don't be fooled once you start feeling good again. Begin ramping it up again once you feel "good" with a focus on SST type training for a few weeks or more, then gently re-introduce either structured efforts or race judiciously according to some type of plan to peak, and the legs should come back.

Good luck.

Mike

So the race season has started, and I try to race more or less every weekend. Some races really wear me down, and I suffer days afterwards to get back to something that can be close to reasonable shape and speed. I don't want to peak now, and would still like to traing in order to improve, but have the following problem.

- If I take some extra time to recover, my overall training is going to drop. If I continue to train even if it is a bit hard, my pace and intesity during traing will suffer. Any thoughts on how to balance the trade-off? How do I make sure that I don't peak if I reduce training intensity and time?

- Strangest thing is that my legs are the limiting factor after races. I'm stiff and don't have any 'snap'. I feel pretty worn out, but the underlying form is good. It feels as if I'm peaking even if I'm worn out, meaning I can ride hard even if I'm tired. I have never trained as hard as this so it might be pure shape, but it feels strange. Is this familiar to any of you? How should I interpretate this? I'm a bit afraid to overtrain but with this feeling it feels as less likely ...


Any input is appriciated.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....I'd rec: back off intensity and racing for a few weeks and get the snap back. but don't be fooled once you start feeling good again. Begin ramping it up again once you feel "good" with a focus on SST type training for a few weeks or more, then gently re-introduce either structured efforts or race judiciously according to some type of plan to peak, and the legs should come back....

+1, really good advice in this post!

-Dave

 

[BullGod]

Andy,

If you are racing weekly, and the racing is really wearing you out you'd be surprised how little training you need to do in the week.

Most riders train too much, not too little, and the average elite rider is often at 80% of his potential form due to tiredness from training too much, not too little. It takes as much discipline NOT to train as it does to hit the road for 4 hours.

I am riding a 160-180km classic each weekend, and usually monday is a 1hr recovery day. Tues and wednesday tend to be 2-3hrs training plus a 90 minute training race, thursday recovery, and friday rest. If the race is on sunday then saturday will be no more than 1 hr warm up.

The last few weeks this has been working well. The midweek 4hr+ workouts with the last 90 mins at race tempo seem to keep the speed and work the endurance, and there are enough rest/easy days in the week to be recovered and fresh on race day. Schedule needs to be flexible to take into account how I feel. Signs of tiredness, illness, overtraining mean scrap training and hit the couch. For example on sunday I rode a 180km classic in 75 degree heat and I still feel rough - trouble sleeping and not so hungry - so today's training race is scrapped. In fact, if it doesn't stop raining this is gonna be a rest day!

I advise also one week per month is a recovery week, with reduced hours and intensity.

Here's a few questions for you - How much base training have you done pre season?

what level do you race at? What kind of distance? Crits or RR?

BG

 

[Andy SG]

Andy,
this sounds like a fairly typical routine for me from years past. just about' june or so,with 2 months of racing in my legs, i'd get fatigued, falling into race/recover mode b/c of lack of base, which then lead to weekly mini-tapers, then burn-out. doens't sound like you're there yet but you might be getting close.

Exactly, I'm doing my first year of more continous racing and start to get afraid of burn-out. But on the other hand, I plan to race and traing at this time of year, so ... Must make sure I'm not overdoing it so to say.

After doing this for 3 years, looking back on it, I put most of the onus on 1.) lack of appropriate base (ie CTL) for the amount of racing i wanted to do and 2.) racing just to race (ie: every weekend, sometimes 2 races perweekend) b/c i thought thats how you got good at racing.

the problem with #1 is it's hard to repair base mid-season and keep racing. the problem with #2 is those type of efforts can't be sustained indefinitely. i saw this quote on wattage i think: "you can never go too hard, just too hard too often". sage advice. i needed some downtime, but just wasn't willing to give up the races, which meant race/recover and ultimately loss of fitness. trust me, theres no quicker way to lose motivation than to feel like you're legs are made of lead all week even though you're not training much.

As stated above, I plan to train and race, since the races now are more for fun, training, and to learn for next year. My goal is more cyclo cross later this year. So I want to go thru this part of the year with a high level of trainng but with races of lower prio. I just want to balance things right.

I'd rec: back off intensity and racing for a few weeks and get the snap back. but don't be fooled once you start feeling good again. Begin ramping it up again once you feel "good" with a focus on SST type training for a few weeks or more, then gently re-introduce either structured efforts or race judiciously according to some type of plan to peak, and the legs should come back.

Good luck.

Mike

Thanks.

 

[Andy SG]

Andy,

If you are racing weekly, and the racing is really wearing you out you'd be surprised how little training you need to do in the week.

Ok. So, since you ask later, I'm a 39 year old pack filler, that want to run more seriously next year in M40, or already by the end of this year in cyclo cross. This year/summer I want to have fun racing, but have only one event that I really want to perform well in, and that is 4 weeks away. But in one week I have a longer race of 300 km, and for that I need to reasonable fresh.

Previous years I normally peak for the 300 km race - not necessary on purpose - and have a real bad time during my prio 1 race a month later. That give me one of my constraints this year. I don't want to wear out, but don't want to peak too early.

I also want the training to suffer too much from racing, as you understand from text above. I would like to benifit from racing for my training rather.

Most riders train too much, not too little, and the average elite rider is often at 80% of his potential form due to tiredness from training too much, not too little. It takes as much discipline NOT to train as it does to hit the road for 4 hours.

I am riding a 160-180km classic each weekend, and usually monday is a 1hr recovery day. Tues and wednesday tend to be 2-3hrs training plus a 90 minute training race, thursday recovery, and friday rest. If the race is on sunday then saturday will be no more than 1 hr warm up.

The last few weeks this has been working well. The midweek 4hr+ workouts with the last 90 mins at race tempo seem to keep the speed and work the endurance, and there are enough rest/easy days in the week to be recovered and fresh on race day. Schedule needs to be flexible to take into account how I feel. Signs of tiredness, illness, overtraining mean scrap training and hit the couch. For example on sunday I rode a 180km classic in 75 degree heat and I still feel rough - trouble sleeping and not so hungry - so today's training race is scrapped. In fact, if it doesn't stop raining this is gonna be a rest day!

What happens if you do like this for a longer time. Is the race intensity good enough, or even great, as training, or are you on a down slope? What if you skip the recover and do some 'poorer'/less intense training sessions to keep training volume up, what happens then? For what reason have you chosen to rest and recover before train even more. You could potentially get a harder peak after your rest and recovery week, or?

I advise also one week per month is a recovery week, with reduced hours and intensity.

Here's a few questions for you - How much base training have you done pre season?

what level do you race at? What kind of distance? Crits or RR?

BG

I've answered some above, and here are some more info.

This year - winter and spring - I've been following a Morris based training plan with blocks of up to three days of hard intervalls. Often some longer group ride on weekend of approximately 4 hours. During late spring when weather has improved I do maybe 10-15 hours per week - less intervalls of course - with a mix of rather hard rides of 1.5 -2.5 hours and a longer group ride. Longest training session is 200 km, and normally I have one race simulation in a week.

Focus is marathon XC, of which a race is roughly 3-4 hours long and pretty hard, at least for me. Later this year I want to race well in the cyclo cross season.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Steve_B]

What happens if you do like this for a longer time. Is the race intensity good enough, or even great, as training, or are you on a down slope? What if you skip the recover and do some 'poorer'/less intense training sessions to keep training volume up, what happens then? For what reason have you chosen to rest and recover before train even more. You could potentially get a harder peak after your rest and recovery week, or?.

BullGod is racing at the Elite level (no contract but similar level) in Holland. He has pretty much an obligation to race every week and his races are hard enough that to some extent, his races are his training at this point in the season.

To answer your question, for the "weekend warrior", you will get "a down slope" if you race and recover exclusively for a long enough period of time.

This year - winter and spring - I've been following a Morris based training plan with blocks of up to three days of hard intervalls. Often some longer group ride on weekend of approximately 4 hours. During late spring when weather has improved I do maybe 10-15 hours per week - less intervalls of course - with a mix of rather hard rides of 1.5 -2.5 hours and a longer group ride. Longest training session is 200 km, and normally I have one race simulation in a week.

Morris. So you were doing a lot of L5-L6 work, right?