Training an athletic movement w/ weights

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Ranieri, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. Ranieri

    Ranieri Guest

    I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to try
    to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
    baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
    adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is a
    cite of some sort...anybody?
     
    Tags:


  2. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:

    > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to try
    > to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
    > baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
    > adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is a
    > cite of some sort...anybody?
    >
    >
    >


    There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
    training'.

    --
    Keith
     
  3. Ranieri

    Ranieri Guest

    "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >
    > > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to

    try
    > > to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
    > > baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
    > > adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is

    a
    > > cite of some sort...anybody?
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
    > training'.
    >



    Jackpot - thanks Keith
     
  4. Ranieri

    Ranieri Guest

    "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >
    > > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to

    try
    > > to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
    > > baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
    > > adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is

    a
    > > cite of some sort...anybody?
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
    > training'.
    >


    A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach has him
    on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang cleans, cable
    rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the swimmers should be doing
    more sport specific stuff like cable pulls on a sliding bench to mimic a
    butterfly, for example. My thought was that they are better off training for
    overall body strength and to work the specific muscles of each stroke by
    swimming.
     
  5. JMW

    JMW Guest

    "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:

    >
    >"Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >> In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >>
    >> > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to
    >> > try
    >> > to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
    >> > baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
    >> > adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is
    >> > a cite of some sort...anybody?

    >>
    >> There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
    >> training'.

    >
    >A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach has him
    >on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang cleans, cable
    >rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the swimmers should be doing
    >more sport specific stuff like cable pulls on a sliding bench to mimic a
    >butterfly, for example. My thought was that they are better off training for
    >overall body strength and to work the specific muscles of each stroke by
    >swimming.


    Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
    are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
    the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
    to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
    likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
    but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.
     
  6. Jason Earl

    Jason Earl Guest

    "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

    > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
    > to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    > throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
    > up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
    > I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?


    Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
    implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
    consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.

    Jason
     
  7. Ranieri

    Ranieri Guest

    "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >
    > > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
    > > to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    > > throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
    > > up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
    > > I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

    >
    > Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
    > implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
    > consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.
    >


    IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try to
    duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going to be
    working it much more slowly than you would perform the movement in
    competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've established is going to
    change to accomodate the need to move more weight at a slower rate.

    I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to your
    competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds like a bad
    idea, though.
     
  8. Jason Earl

    Jason Earl Guest

    "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

    > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >>
    >> > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
    >> > to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    >> > throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
    >> > up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
    >> > I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

    >>
    >> Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
    >> implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
    >> consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.
    >>

    >
    > IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try
    > to duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going
    > to be working it much more slowly than you would perform the
    > movement in competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've
    > established is going to change to accomodate the need to move more
    > weight at a slower rate.
    >
    > I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to
    > your competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds
    > like a bad idea, though.


    I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan John's
    lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it would appear
    that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.

    Just throwing that out there...

    Jason
     
  9. Bully

    Bully Guest

    JMW wrote:
    > "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
    >>>> inadvisable to try
    >>>> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    >>>> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can
    >>>> mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement.
    >>>> What I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?
    >>>
    >>> There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and
    >>> 'resistance training'.

    >>
    >> A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach
    >> has him on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang
    >> cleans, cable rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the
    >> swimmers should be doing more sport specific stuff like cable pulls
    >> on a sliding bench to mimic a butterfly, for example. My thought was
    >> that they are better off training for overall body strength and to
    >> work the specific muscles of each stroke by swimming.

    >
    > Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
    > are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
    > the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
    > to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
    > likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
    > but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.


    I've been thinking about the exact same subject but in relation to rugby.
    If, for example, we practice passing the ball with over-weight balls it will
    strengthen the movement -- agreed. Now, JMW, you say it will also slow the
    movement. But, if we practice for 10 mins/week with over-weight balls and
    the other say 80 mins per week with normal-weight balls, will it have a
    significant slowing effect?

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
    Supps: http://www.myprotein.co.uk - 5% off with my discount code MP4858

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
     
  10. Bully

    Bully Guest

    Jason Earl wrote:
    > "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >
    >> "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >>>
    >>>> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
    >>>> inadvisable to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement
    >>>> (ie slapshot, throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight
    >>>> because it can mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for
    >>>> the movement. What I'd like to find is a cite of some
    >>>> sort...anybody?
    >>>
    >>> Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
    >>> implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you
    >>> would consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.
    >>>

    >>
    >> IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try
    >> to duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going
    >> to be working it much more slowly than you would perform the
    >> movement in competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've
    >> established is going to change to accomodate the need to move more
    >> weight at a slower rate.
    >>
    >> I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to
    >> your competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds
    >> like a bad idea, though.

    >
    > I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan John's
    > lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it would appear
    > that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    >
    > Just throwing that out there...
    >
    > Jason


    What percentage of their training is done with overweight stuff?

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
    Supps: http://www.myprotein.co.uk - 5% off with my discount code MP4858

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
     
  11. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >
    > > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    > >>
    > >> > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
    > >> > to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    > >> > throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
    > >> > up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
    > >> > I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?
    > >>
    > >> Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
    > >> implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
    > >> consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.
    > >>

    > >
    > > IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try
    > > to duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going
    > > to be working it much more slowly than you would perform the
    > > movement in competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've
    > > established is going to change to accomodate the need to move more
    > > weight at a slower rate.
    > >
    > > I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to
    > > your competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds
    > > like a bad idea, though.

    >
    > I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan John's
    > lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it would appear
    > that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    >
    > Just throwing that out there...


    They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements tho.
    Very different thing.

    --
    Keith
     
  12. Charles

    Charles Guest

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:05:37 -0000, "Bully"
    <[email protected]_btinternet.com> wrote:

    >JMW wrote:
    >> "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]ews.com...
    >>>> In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
    >>>>> inadvisable to try
    >>>>> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    >>>>> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can
    >>>>> mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement.
    >>>>> What I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?
    >>>>
    >>>> There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and
    >>>> 'resistance training'.
    >>>
    >>> A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach
    >>> has him on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang
    >>> cleans, cable rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the
    >>> swimmers should be doing more sport specific stuff like cable pulls
    >>> on a sliding bench to mimic a butterfly, for example. My thought was
    >>> that they are better off training for overall body strength and to
    >>> work the specific muscles of each stroke by swimming.

    >>
    >> Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
    >> are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
    >> the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
    >> to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
    >> likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
    >> but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.

    >
    >I've been thinking about the exact same subject but in relation to rugby.
    >If, for example, we practice passing the ball with over-weight balls it will
    >strengthen the movement -- agreed. Now, JMW, you say it will also slow the
    >movement. But, if we practice for 10 mins/week with over-weight balls and
    >the other say 80 mins per week with normal-weight balls, will it have a
    >significant slowing effect?


    Passing a rugby ball is not a skill that requires a particularly high
    level of strength of power, given that the ball is nothing more than a
    bag of air.

    There is nothing to gain by using weighted balls and perhaps a
    considerable amount to lose. A player using a weighted ball may adjust
    to the heavier ball, and when returning to the normal ball may well
    overthrow or loft.

    Passing a normal ball is the best practice for passing, while players
    in training sessions should be encouraged to carry and distribute the
    ball as much as possible.

    Strength and power training with weights or man on man opposition
    exercises, is best aimed directly at those areas that require such
    strength, which are mainly contact skills to do with upper body
    strength and legs.
     
  13. Jason Earl

    Jason Earl Guest

    Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >>
    >> > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> > news:[email protected]
    >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:


    <snip>

    >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
    >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
    >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    >>
    >> Just throwing that out there...

    >
    > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
    > tho. Very different thing.


    Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
    the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
    for _form_.

    Here's an example:

    http://danjohn.org/den.pdf
     
  14. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    > >>
    > >> > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> > news:[email protected]
    > >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
    > >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
    > >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    > >>
    > >> Just throwing that out there...

    > >
    > > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
    > > tho. Very different thing.

    >
    > Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
    > the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
    > for _form_.
    >
    > Here's an example:
    >
    > http://danjohn.org/den.pdf


    The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor pattern. The
    problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor motor pattern with
    yet another.

    --
    Keith
     
  15. JMW

    JMW Guest

    "Bully" <[email protected]_btinternet.com> wrote:
    >JMW wrote:
    >> "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]
    >>>> In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
    >>>>> inadvisable to try
    >>>>> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
    >>>>> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can
    >>>>> mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement.
    >>>>> What I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?
    >>>>
    >>>> There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and
    >>>> 'resistance training'.
    >>>
    >>> A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach
    >>> has him on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang
    >>> cleans, cable rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the
    >>> swimmers should be doing more sport specific stuff like cable pulls
    >>> on a sliding bench to mimic a butterfly, for example. My thought was
    >>> that they are better off training for overall body strength and to
    >>> work the specific muscles of each stroke by swimming.

    >>
    >> Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
    >> are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
    >> the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
    >> to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
    >> likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
    >> but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.

    >
    >I've been thinking about the exact same subject but in relation to rugby.
    >If, for example, we practice passing the ball with over-weight balls it will
    >strengthen the movement -- agreed. Now, JMW, you say it will also slow the
    >movement. But, if we practice for 10 mins/week with over-weight balls and
    >the other say 80 mins per week with normal-weight balls, will it have a
    >significant slowing effect?


    Probably not. I just don't see the value of that. If anything,
    weighted balls should be easier for making solid catch, since they are
    less likely to bounce out of your grasp.

    However, if you hold the regular ball and allow your teammates to
    throw medicine balls at you, that might get you conditioned for
    American Rugby. :)
     
  16. Ranieri

    Ranieri Guest

    "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote:
    >
    > > "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > In article <[email protected]>, "Ranieri" <nah>

    wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable

    to
    > > try
    > > > > to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing

    a
    > > > > baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the

    neural
    > > > > adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to

    find is
    > > a
    > > > > cite of some sort...anybody?
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
    > > > training'.
    > > >

    > >
    > > A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach has

    him
    > > on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang cleans, cable
    > > rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the swimmers should be

    doing
    > > more sport specific stuff like cable pulls on a sliding bench to mimic a
    > > butterfly, for example. My thought was that they are better off training

    for
    > > overall body strength and to work the specific muscles of each stroke by
    > > swimming.
    > >
    > >

    >
    > Absolutely right. And of course, doing overspeed work and other things
    > to translate strength into speed specific for the sport.
    >
    > 'Somebody' was making the very common error of confusing mimicry with
    > specificity.
    >
    > Here is an excerpt from a communication by Loren Chiu on the
    > 'Supertraining' email forum which explains specificity very well, IMO.
    > Chiu had made a presentation at the NSCA convention and there was some
    > questions regarding the powerpoint slides. Dude is wicked smaht!
    >
    > --
    >
    > <snip article>


    > Loren Chiu
    > Musculoskeletal Biomechanics Research Laboratory
    > Department of Biokinesiology and Physical Therapy
    > University of Southern California
    > http://pt.usc.edu/labs/mbrl/STUDENTS/Chiu.html
    > http://www.nsca-lift.org/SIGWeightlifting
    >


    That's some good stuff - worth printing and chewing on. Following the links
    you posted, I found this:
    https://www.nsca-lift.org/Conferences/sstc.shtml

    -looks like it'd be right up your alley.
     
  17. Jason Earl

    Jason Earl Guest

    Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    >> > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >> >>
    >> >> > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >> > news:[email protected]
    >> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

    >>
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
    >> >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
    >> >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    >> >>
    >> >> Just throwing that out there...
    >> >
    >> > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
    >> > tho. Very different thing.

    >>
    >> Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
    >> the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
    >> for _form_.
    >>
    >> Here's an example:
    >>
    >> http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

    >
    > The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
    > pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
    > motor pattern with yet another.


    They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
    agree that it works...

    Jason
     
  18. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    > >>
    > >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    > >> > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> >> > news:[email protected]
    > >> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    > >>
    > >> <snip>
    > >>
    > >> >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
    > >> >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
    > >> >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Just throwing that out there...
    > >> >
    > >> > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
    > >> > tho. Very different thing.
    > >>
    > >> Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
    > >> the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
    > >> for _form_.
    > >>
    > >> Here's an example:
    > >>
    > >> http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

    > >
    > > The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
    > > pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
    > > motor pattern with yet another.

    >
    > They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
    > agree that it works...


    I like Dan and enjoy his articles. There is definately something to
    breaking down form flaws into segments and addressing the flaw. The
    important thing is having a good coach to put everything back together
    again. But, if you have a good coach you can make a lot of different
    training tools work. In this case the research is clear - mimicing a
    skill with heavy or light resistance deteriorates the sporting movement.
    What DJ is suggesting - working a segment of that skill with heavy
    resistance implements where they feel the nature of the heavy implement
    will correct a training flaw - is a very different thing.

    I still would worry that I'm addressing one flaw, but causing another.

    --
    Keith
     
  19. Jason Earl

    Jason Earl Guest

    Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    >> > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    >> >>
    >> >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    >> >> > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >> >> > news:[email protected]
    >> >> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    >> >>
    >> >> <snip>
    >> >>
    >> >> >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
    >> >> >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
    >> >> >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> Just throwing that out there...
    >> >> >
    >> >> > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
    >> >> > tho. Very different thing.
    >> >>
    >> >> Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
    >> >> the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
    >> >> for _form_.
    >> >>
    >> >> Here's an example:
    >> >>
    >> >> http://danjohn.org/den.pdf
    >> >
    >> > The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
    >> > pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
    >> > motor pattern with yet another.

    >>
    >> They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
    >> agree that it works...

    >
    > I like Dan and enjoy his articles. There is definately something to
    > breaking down form flaws into segments and addressing the flaw. The
    > important thing is having a good coach to put everything back
    > together again. But, if you have a good coach you can make a lot of
    > different training tools work. In this case the research is clear -
    > mimicing a skill with heavy or light resistance deteriorates the
    > sporting movement. What DJ is suggesting - working a segment of
    > that skill with heavy resistance implements where they feel the
    > nature of the heavy implement will correct a training flaw - is a
    > very different thing.
    >
    > I still would worry that I'm addressing one flaw, but causing
    > another.


    That makes sense as well. I just brought up the example because it
    was one case that I knew of where the "don't use heavy implements to
    improve a skill" rule was being broken by talented coaches.

    Thanks for the discussion,
    Jason
     
  20. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    > >>
    > >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    > >> > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> Hobbes <[email protected]> writes:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    > >> >> > Jason Earl <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    > >> >> >>
    > >> >> >> > "Jason Earl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> >> >> > news:[email protected]
    > >> >> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> <snip>
    > >> >>
    > >> >> >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
    > >> >> >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
    > >> >> >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
    > >> >> >>
    > >> >> >> Just throwing that out there...
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
    > >> >> > tho. Very different thing.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
    > >> >> the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
    > >> >> for _form_.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Here's an example:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> http://danjohn.org/den.pdf
    > >> >
    > >> > The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
    > >> > pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
    > >> > motor pattern with yet another.
    > >>
    > >> They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
    > >> agree that it works...

    > >
    > > I like Dan and enjoy his articles. There is definately something to
    > > breaking down form flaws into segments and addressing the flaw. The
    > > important thing is having a good coach to put everything back
    > > together again. But, if you have a good coach you can make a lot of
    > > different training tools work. In this case the research is clear -
    > > mimicing a skill with heavy or light resistance deteriorates the
    > > sporting movement. What DJ is suggesting - working a segment of
    > > that skill with heavy resistance implements where they feel the
    > > nature of the heavy implement will correct a training flaw - is a
    > > very different thing.
    > >
    > > I still would worry that I'm addressing one flaw, but causing
    > > another.

    >
    > That makes sense as well. I just brought up the example because it
    > was one case that I knew of where the "don't use heavy implements to
    > improve a skill" rule was being broken by talented coaches.
    >
    > Thanks for the discussion,


    Ditto. And that last point is huge - there are very little training
    ideas that don't work for someone at sometime. Rules are made to be
    broken.

    --
    Keith
     
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