Training-as-testing vs. dedicated testing

[Squint]

Like I mentioned before, I started the year out of shape due to sickness and other time off. Accordingly, I lowered my FTP in CP from last season's 270 to 245.

For the first few weeks of this season, I did tempo and 3x20 on, 5 off rides and never felt good enough to increase the target powers much. My best 3x20 was 255 ave and a lot of times it would be a chore to get over 250. I figured 3x20 power was close to FTP so I upped my FTP to 250 in CP.

In the 3rd and 4th days of my recent rest period, I did 5 and 20 min tests and did 340 and 295.

If I use 0.95*20 min power, I get an FTP of 280. If I stuck to my previous training-is-testing approach, I'm still at 250. Now if FTP cannot be much less than 95% of 20 min power, 280 is the more correct FTP, right?

 

[rmur17]

Like I mentioned before, I started the year out of shape due to sickness and other time off. Accordingly, I lowered my FTP in CP from last season's 270 to 245.

For the first few weeks of this season, I did tempo and 3x20 on, 5 off rides and never felt good enough to increase the target powers much. My best 3x20 was 255 ave and a lot of times it would be a chore to get over 250. I figured 3x20 power was close to FTP so I upped my FTP to 250 in CP.

In the 3rd and 4th days of my recent rest period, I did 5 and 20 min tests and did 340 and 295.

If I use 0.95*20 min power, I get an FTP of 280. If I stuck to my previous training-is-testing approach, I'm still at 250. Now if FTP cannot be much less than 95% of 20 min power, 280 is the more correct FTP, right?

Assuming those were both your best current efforts, using the CP-Monod model for those two datapoints I get (drumroll please ) CP=280W and AWC=18000.

Any chance your 3x20 power is lower due to indoor training versus outdoor testing? Or motivation?

I've found my FT 'appears' to be some 20-25W lower based on longish indoor tests. 5 and 20min efforts are no problem (my 20min PB being set indoors) but once I get past 30min, it seems cooling factors kick in and I fade much more than outdoors. YMMV of course.

All in all, 280W sounds like your correct FT to me. Congrats on the +30W

rmur

 

[frenchyge]

280w does seem to fit the curve better. It'd be interesting to find out why you can't hold that power past the first 20 minutes, though. During your 3x20 sessions, do you try to do them at close to 250w, or do you go hard on the first one(s) and end up with an average of 250w? When I do mine at FTP, I find that I'm still able to increase avg power by ~5-10w on the last one just by 'pulling out the stops.'

You mentioned that the 'test' was done after 4 days of rest. That's quite a big difference in output between your rested state and your normal workouts. What precedes your normal 3x20 workouts?

 

[Squint]

So far, all rides have been outside on the same course.

I think it might be motivational. The course changes direction quite often and there's a lot of rolling hills. I think I've been on MTB courses that required less frequent shifting. Thus, it requires a fair amount of concentration to keep my power up on that course.

Today, I did another 3x20. The first two were at 248 and 249. PE seems to fail me at this level. I feel like I'm suffering and can't go much harder when I actually can. So for the last interval, I tried to get myself into TT mode where I held nothing back. This time, I was able to crank out 273 which I don't think was bad given the fatigue and motivational problems.

Assuming those were both your best current efforts, using the CP-Monod model for those two datapoints I get (drumroll please ) CP=280W and AWC=18000.

Any chance your 3x20 power is lower due to indoor training versus outdoor testing? Or motivation?

I've found my FT 'appears' to be some 20-25W lower based on longish indoor tests. 5 and 20min efforts are no problem (my 20min PB being set indoors) but once I get past 30min, it seems cooling factors kick in and I fade much more than outdoors. YMMV of course.

All in all, 280W sounds like your correct FT to me. Congrats on the +30W

rmur

 

[Squint]

I started a new block Saturday with 2 hrs of tempo at 225W. It didn't feel hard to me as I suspect it would if my FTP was 250.

Sunday was L1 with some L2.

Monday was 3x20s at ~250.

Tuesday was an off day.

Today, I did 3x20s again as mentioned above.

What usually happens is that I try to do them all at 255 or 260 and succeed for either the 1st or 2nd but not the other two.

I guess it's a combination of fatigue and lack of motivation. It doesn't seem like ideal training since I feel fatigued much of the time but it seems to be working. Since I'll be testing every 20 days or so, I'll be able to change my training plan if I stop improving.

280w does seem to fit the curve better. It'd be interesting to find out why you can't hold that power past the first 20 minutes, though. During your 3x20 sessions, do you try to do them at close to 250w, or do you go hard on the first one(s) and end up with an average of 250w? When I do mine at FTP, I find that I'm still able to increase avg power by ~5-10w on the last one just by 'pulling out the stops.'

You mentioned that the 'test' was done after 4 days of rest. That's quite a big difference in output between your rested state and your normal workouts. What precedes your normal 3x20 workouts?

 

[frenchyge]

I think it might be motivational. <snip>

Today, I did another 3x20. The first two were at 248 and 249. PE seems to fail me at this level. I feel like I'm suffering and can't go much harder when I actually can. So for the last interval, I tried to get myself into TT mode where I held nothing back. This time, I was able to crank out 273 which I don't think was bad given the fatigue and motivational problems.

I would agree. Despite your high RPE, it's obvious that you've still got quite a bit left in reserve if you're able to improve your last interval by ~25w.