Training for a Stage Race with the PMC

[Pureshot78]

I've put a 3 day stage race in May on my race calendar as an "A" race for the season. I live in southern california so weather isn't as much of an issue as finding the time to ride while it is light out with working full time.

I'm not too worried about the taper aspect of my training but my main question is

"what level of CTL should I expect to be necessary in order to be fresh each day?"

Lets assume that my w/kg at FT is slightly lower than those that I will be competing with but that i'm in the ball park. I have good AWC.
The Stage Race consists of:

1)RR that historically takes the leaders ~3:00:00 to finish over 61 miles at 3700 ft of climbing

2)Criterium that historically takes 40:00 over 15 1 mile laps with 60' climbing each lap.

3)RR that histocially take 3:35:00 over 66 miles at 5600 ft of climbing

 

[peterpen]

I'd say about 200-250, ideally.





Seriously, I don't see how a number value for CTL could give you an answer to that question, unless you've done one in the past and compare CTL load to how you felt and performed.

 

[Pureshot78]

Seriously, I don't see how a number value for CTL could give you an answer to that question, unless you've done one in the past and compare CTL load to how you felt and performed.

I've done said race twice before sans PM. I was hoping that some of the PMC gurus could give advice based on some assumed TSS scores for the three days.

So if i just throw out there that I'm expecting (guessing really) to do around:

225 TSS on day one
75 TSS on day two
275 TSS on day three

What level of CTL would make me fit enough to be strong and not just holding my head above water on day three?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

What level of CTL would make me fit enough to be strong and not just holding my head above water on day three?

i have the feeling you are heading towards making a mistake that unfortunately many people will make. If you were, for e.g., to go out and ride at zone 1 for 5 hours every day between now and your goal event, your CTL would be very high. However, your fitness, in terms of being fit for road races, as opposed to riding at zone 1 is likely to be low.

In other words, not only do you have to think about CTL, but how that CTL has been composed -- the type of training you need to do, needs to be specific to your goals. CTL doesn't care what training you do...

Thus, asking what your CTL should be isn't of much help - you'll need training that is specific to your needs for the goal event(s) and to get your CTL high. And of course get your TSB to be 'reasonable' as well.

ric

 

[Alex Simmons]

I've done said race twice before sans PM. I was hoping that some of the PMC gurus could give advice based on some assumed TSS scores for the three days.

So if i just throw out there that I'm expecting (guessing really) to do around:

225 TSS on day one
75 TSS on day two
275 TSS on day three

What level of CTL would make me fit enough to be strong and not just holding my head above water on day three?

Since you are unlikely to have a CTL > 150, days 1 & 2 will raise your CTL a bit and ATL a lot, therefore put you big TSB negative by day 3, so pretty hard to say really. But the good thing is it'll be the same for everyone.

As Rick says, CTL is a measure of chronic load, not what specifically went into attaining that level of chronic load.

In Oct I did State Masters Championships Road Race day 1 and Crit day 2.

RR 2:48 (+ 20 min warm up) 319 TSS - 5 laps hilly 18 km loop but prob not the same amount of climbing as you have - all shortish hard hills < 4mins.
Crit: 48 min (+ 40 min warm up) 170 TSS - similar course, half the length of yours with a sharp turn and rise each lap.

I went in day 1 at CTL 78, TSB +9 (Placed 7th RR, 4th Crit)
Came out day 3 at CTL 86, TSB -28

Glad I wasn't racing day 3.

 

[ZimboNC]

RR 2:48 (+ 20 min warm up) 319 TSS

319 TSS for a 3:08 ride sounds unbelievably hard.

--Steve

 

[beerco]

I've done said race twice before sans PM. I was hoping that some of the PMC gurus could give advice based on some assumed TSS scores for the three days.

So if i just throw out there that I'm expecting (guessing really) to do around:

225 TSS on day one
75 TSS on day two
275 TSS on day three

What level of CTL would make me fit enough to be strong and not just holding my head above water on day three?

Firstly you should read Ric's advice very carefully.

Secondly, you have the data to figure it out yourself.

Using PMC, you can type in a starting CTL & ATL "seed" and put in the three days worth of TSS and check out the TSB.

Remember that TSB (freshness) seems to have a bigger effect on neuromuscular/anerobic fitness (i.e. your ability to make big power for a short period of time) than longer efforts.

 

[Pureshot78]

Thus, asking what your CTL should be isn't of much help - you'll need training that is specific to your needs for the goal event(s) and to get your CTL high. And of course get your TSB to be 'reasonable' as well.

ric

I'm not concerned about adapting my workouts to meet the specifics of the event. I'm aware what is necessary and will plan my workouts accordingly. Perhaps I should have made that clear with some additional assumptions in my original post.

 

[Pureshot78]

I went in day 1 at CTL 78, TSB +9 (Placed 7th RR, 4th Crit)
Came out day 3 at CTL 86, TSB -28

Glad I wasn't racing day 3.

Thanks, these numbers are helping to give me a picture of what other people might expect.

My current CTL is 57.9. I guess the thought of having those kinds of TSS numbers back to back to back scared me a bit.

To give you a little more context on where i'm coming from: After the first year I did the race I concluded that I had plenty of volume but not enough intensity. This was evidenced by my getting dropped on any climb of significance and basically Time Trialing the remainder of the two RR stages.

In preparation for the second go around I flipped my thinking and did predominately L4 - L6 workouts (indoors on a trainer since I was living in WI) but arrived at the race completely unprepared, in terms of volume, to complete a stage of 61 miles. In this case i ended up abandoning during the second stage.

Now that I am not limited by either environment or ability to monitor my training (recall that both previous races were done without PM) I wanted to get a sense of what CTL (volume) of training would be necessary since I understand the intensity component.

Thanks for every one's patience, if nothing else, please share your Stage Race experiences, preferably with TSS / CTL numbers.

 

[Alex Simmons]

319 TSS for a 3:08 ride sounds unbelievably hard.

--Steve

Indeed it was. I rode a 65min TTT the following weekend at an IF=0.999 and that was pretty well at my limit, so FTP was about right. I was fresher for the road race and able to generate PB powers that weekend. At some stage in the following weeks after some formal testing FTP was lifted a little as I had demonstrated improved fitness.

 

[whoawhoa]

I've put a 3 day stage race in May on my race calendar as an "A" race for the season. I live in southern california so weather isn't as much of an issue as finding the time to ride while it is light out with working full time.

I'm not too worried about the taper aspect of my training but my main question is

"what level of CTL should I expect to be necessary in order to be fresh each day?"

Lets assume that my w/kg at FT is slightly lower than those that I will be competing with but that i'm in the ball park. I have good AWC.
The Stage Race consists of:

1)RR that historically takes the leaders ~3:00:00 to finish over 61 miles at 3700 ft of climbing

2)Criterium that historically takes 40:00 over 15 1 mile laps with 60' climbing each lap.

3)RR that histocially take 3:35:00 over 66 miles at 5600 ft of climbing

You bring up an interesting question. I think you've inspired me to post my own thread on a related subject.

Anyway, I don't know that there are any hard and fast numbers. The higher your CTL is, and the lower your TSB is, the fresher you will be on day 2 and three. That said, day 2 is fairly easy tss-wise, so day 3 shouldn't be too bad. The crit on the 2nd day may be the hardest to get through if it's historically a shell-fest.

Oh, the best answer is to raise your w/kg higher than most of your competition.

 

[Pureshot78]

Oh, the best answer is to raise your w/kg higher than most of your competition.

Yea but i can only do 3 things at a time, not 4.

On a serious note though, I am working on losing weight. My current FT is 270 watts but i weigh 186 lbs. (Of course just 2 months ago I was 195 lbs) I'd like to be around 170 - 175 by the time of the race and its not unreasonable to think my FT could be 300 watts by then. If I achieve both goals I should be able to dish out the hurt rather than absorb it.

 

[MidBunchLurker]

Thanks, these numbers are helping to give me a picture of what other people might expect.

My current CTL is 57.9. I guess the thought of having those kinds of TSS numbers back to back to back scared me a bit.

To give you a little more context on where i'm coming from: After the first year I did the race I concluded that I had plenty of volume but not enough intensity. This was evidenced by my getting dropped on any climb of significance and basically Time Trialing the remainder of the two RR stages.

In preparation for the second go around I flipped my thinking and did predominately L4 - L6 workouts (indoors on a trainer since I was living in WI) but arrived at the race completely unprepared, in terms of volume, to complete a stage of 61 miles. In this case i ended up abandoning during the second stage.

Now that I am not limited by either environment or ability to monitor my training (recall that both previous races were done without PM) I wanted to get a sense of what CTL (volume) of training would be necessary since I understand the intensity component.

Thanks for every one's patience, if nothing else, please share your Stage Race experiences, preferably with TSS / CTL numbers.

I'll share my training for some previous MTB stage races, both 8 days. And both pre-PT:

I more-or-less took Joe Friel's stage race program from his Training Bible, except I did 2 weeks hard, 1 week easy. I did this for 4 months. Estimating TSS I believe my CTL went from about 60 at the start of focussed training up to about 90 on the start-line. (and CTL 105 at the end of the race with TSB of -75!)

Since this worked so well for me in the past, I use this format now for my general training. So it'll be 2 weeks with total TSS of 700-900, then a rest week of around 500. I've been at it for 8 weeks this time and with my CTL at 82 I've set lots of PBs in yesterday's 80km road race. FTP has gone from 265 to 275w, and I'm hoping to be up at 285w within another 4 weeks.

 

[peterpen]

My current CTL is 57.9. I guess the thought of having those kinds of TSS numbers back to back to back scared me a bit.

What kind of hours are you putting in? I'm also targeting a stage race (which sounds similar to the one you're doing, with the addition of a 10mi TT on day 2) and, roughly speaking, my total Fri/Sat/Sun hours match the race I'll be doing.

Seems like your CTL would be higher if you were doing something similar, but I have a hard time getting a handle on how CTL compares across individuals. FWIW, my current CTL is 106, and I suspect it will be closer to 135-150 by the time of that race.

 

[Pureshot78]

What kind of hours are you putting in? I'm also targeting a stage race (which sounds similar to the one you're doing, with the addition of a 10mi TT on day 2) and, roughly speaking, my total Fri/Sat/Sun hours match the race I'll be doing.

Seems like your CTL would be higher if you were doing something similar, but I have a hard time getting a handle on how CTL compares across individuals. FWIW, my current CTL is 106, and I suspect it will be closer to 135-150 by the time of that race.

What is probably more useful to know is that in my most recent 42 days I only have 20 ride files. Or stated another way, 52.4% of the days used to calculate my CTL of 58 have 0 in the TSS column.

The average TSS of the 20 rides is 121.4, so just by slowly reducing the number of "no data" days in my CTL I'm confident my CTL will ramp up.

I'm shooting for ~125 CTL by the time of the race.

 

[Alex Simmons]

I'm shooting for ~125 CTL by the time of the race.

Have you been anywhere near 125 CTL in previous seasons?

 

[Pureshot78]

Have you been anywhere near 125 CTL in previous seasons?

The first season that I did this race I was training by HR using Friel's methodology. During the Base phases I was doing anywhere from 10 - 15 hours a week.

 

[Alex Simmons]

The first season that I did this race I was training by HR using Friel's methodology. During the Base phases I was doing anywhere from 10 - 15 hours a week.

OK that's the duration side of the equation. I can't tell intensity from that.

As an indication:

125 TSS/day = 875 TSS/week

Say you have 1 day/week off bike.

875/6 = 146 TSS/day on average for days on the bike:

TSS/ride__Hrs/week(ride)____IF/ride (on avg)
146 _______15.0 (2.5) ________0.76
146 _______12.5 (2.1) ________0.84
146 _______10.0 (1.7) ________0.94

If you can maintain those intensities on average for those durations over the long haul you'll eventually get up towards 125.

 

[Pureshot78]

OK that's the duration side of the equation. I can't tell intensity from that.

As an indication:

125 TSS/day = 875 TSS/week

Say you have 1 day/week off bike.

875/6 = 146 TSS/day on average for days on the bike:

TSS/ride__Hrs/week(ride)____IF/ride (on avg)
146 _______15.0 (2.5) ________0.76
146 _______12.5 (2.1) ________0.84
146 _______10.0 (1.7) ________0.94

If you can maintain those intensities on average for those durations over the long haul you'll eventually get up towards 125.

I recently updated my FTP to 270 watts based on the CP model even though the highest 60 minute AP i've recorded is 243 watts. I have my doubts that I would be able to maintain 270 watts for 60 minutes straight but have greater doubts that my PD curve would degrade enough to not accomplish it when I have shown that I can hold 274 watts for 32:05. Could this simply be a function of my CTL not being high enough? *shrugs*

here are some TSS and IF numbers from the past week

208.2 .899
142.7 .8
160.9 .854
119.5 .765
75.8 .795

 

[RapDaddyo]

I recently updated my FTP to 270 watts based on the CP model even though the highest 60 minute AP i've recorded is 243 watts.

Did you include AWC in the 60MP computation? You might want to compute 60MP based on CP alone. It's not a huge difference, but this is the calculation of FTP that Andy Coggan had in mind when he included the CP curve in the ways to estimate FTP.

I have my doubts that I would be able to maintain 270 watts for 60 minutes straight but have greater doubts that my PD curve would degrade enough to not accomplish it when I have shown that I can hold 274 watts for 32:05. Could this simply be a function of my CTL not being high enough? *shrugs*

Having a 60MP=98.5%32MP would suggest a high level of fitness (probably also a relatively high CTL). For example, my 60MP/30MP is closer to .96-.97.