Training for PR in BIX 7 (7 mile Hell)

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Rcase, Dec 17, 2003.

  1. Rcase

    Rcase Guest

    Hey everyone, a friend of mine sent me here, said a great wealth of information resides inside.

    I have been running on a fairly strong training program for about 4 months 20-30) miles a week.
    Until recently i have been running with a roommate of mine who slows me down tremedously.

    My PR currently is 19:50 for 3 miles on a Track , only 5k time is
    21:10.

    What i want to do is run the QC times BIX 7 in 44 minutes. If any of you are familar with this
    course, it is very very difficult. I have ran it now 8 years, but i have never trained for it. My
    best race without training was 53 minutes.

    I would like your advice on what to do as far as training. SHould i train on the course, should i
    train running 10 miles constantly???

    I cannot find anything specific on courses with very bad hills. The other down side is the drastic
    tempature during the race.

    The way i see it, if i can run 6:00- 6:30 throughout the race i will be where i need (most likely
    6:00 the whole run , due to the starting mile delay)

    Any advice, or questions that may help you advise?

    thanks!
     
    Tags:


  2. In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
    > Hey everyone, a friend of mine sent me here, said a great wealth of information resides inside.
    >
    > I have been running on a fairly strong training program for about 4 months 20-30) miles a week.
    > Until recently i have been running with a roommate of mine who slows me down tremedously.

    Sounds good. Doing training runs at an easy pace is usually a good idea. The only drawback to
    training slowly is that it takes a little longer to get in the same milage. Also, you obviously need
    to do speed work at your own pace.

    First, some important questions:

    (1) What pace were you doing on your normal training runs ?
    (2) Could you give more details on how you've been training ? What does a typical training week look
    like ? Include the pace of your different runs.
    (3) How long until the race ?

    > My PR currently is 19:50 for 3 miles on a Track , only 5k time is
    > 21:10.
    >
    > What i want to do is run the QC times BIX 7 in 44 minutes. If any of

    When is the race ? A 44 minute pace for 7 miles is comparable to a 6:00 pace for 5k. You're going to
    need a substantial improvement to do that.

    My suggestion would be to run a 5k close to the race and use that for goal setting.

    > I would like your advice on what to do as far as training. SHould i train on the course, should i
    > train running 10 miles constantly???

    Long runs would help. Building milage would also help. Some tempo runs would also help. A small
    amount of hill training would help. Given the hilly course and the duration of the race, I'd favor
    hill training over other speed work (and I'm not even a big fan of hill training).

    > I cannot find anything specific on courses with very bad hills. The

    If I'm racing on a hilly course, I like to do some of my training runs and speed work on
    similar terrain.

    > The way i see it, if i can run 6:00- 6:30 throughout the race i will be where i need (most likely
    > 6:00 the whole run , due to the starting mile delay)

    If the race is well organised, you shouldn't have a substantial "starting mile delay". But it is
    worth taking it easy on the first mile anyway.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  3. Globaldisc

    Globaldisc Guest

    pray. that's my advice. you characterized a 20-30 miles/week program as a "strong" training
    program....huh? your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR on this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and you
    goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile on this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to
    clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat track at 3 miles.

    have you ever heard of the term, "snowball's chance in hell"? how about, "when pigs fly"?

    your goals are too unrealistic relative to what you've accomplished to date. i'd even go so far as
    to question your whole notion of seriously training.

    you've defined a tall order for yourself and it would serve you well to understand the sacrifices
    and commitment you're going to have to make to make the "leap" you're seeking to....

    good luck...you're going to need it.
     
  4. In article <[email protected]>, Globaldisc wrote:
    > pray. that's my advice. you characterized a 20-30 miles/week program as a "strong" training
    > program....huh? your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR on this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and
    > you goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile on this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to
    > clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat track at 3 miles.
    >
    > have you ever heard of the term, "snowball's chance in hell"? how about, "when pigs fly"?
    >
    > your goals are too unrealistic relative to what you've accomplished to date. i'd even go so far as
    > to question your whole notion of seriously training.

    That's a bit negative. I agree that his goals are a bit out of whack with reality though. Somewhere
    along the line, he'll need to adjust his goals as he gets feedback from training.

    FWIW, as one data point, I went from 45:58 net in 10k (late August, very little training) to 40:11
    in 15 weeks of consistent training. But I've been averaging 39mpw over the last 15 weeks. The
    bottom line is that if he builds his milage, I think he may be good for about a 47:00 or so, about
    a 6:25 pace.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  5. Drlith

    Drlith Guest

    "Globaldisc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > pray. that's my advice. you characterized a 20-30 miles/week program as
    a
    > "strong" training program....huh? your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR
    on
    > this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and you goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile
    on
    > this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat track
    > at 3 miles.
    >
    > have you ever heard of the term, "snowball's chance in hell"? how about,
    "when
    > pigs fly"?
    >
    > your goals are too unrealistic relative to what you've accomplished to
    date.
    > i'd even go so far as to question your whole notion of seriously training.

    I don't know if it's common knowledge to the big boys in New York City--I lived for a long time in
    the QCs, and the Bix 7 is definitely the biggest local sporting event of the year--but at any rate,
    the guy *is* talking about a race that is still 7.5 months away.
     
  6. Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > (3) How long until the race ?

    http://www.bix7.com - the poster doesn´t seem to fall in the most common category in *this* respect:
    he may aim high, but at least he doesn´t think he can do it in four weeks:)

    (FWIW 7 miles in 44 minutes is 11.2 km at 3:54 pace, easy enough on a flat course...)

    > > My PR currently is 19:50 for 3 miles on a Track , only 5k time is
    > > 21:10.

    There´s room for improvement - good!

    > Long runs would help. Building mileage would also help. Some tempo runs would also help. A small
    > amount of hill training would help. Given the hilly course and the duration of the race, I'd favor
    > hill training over other speed work (and I'm not even a big fan of hill training).

    I concur, though perhaps at first it would be wise to do a hill session and an interval session on
    alternate weeks. For instance, 2x 5x 90-120s uphill w/downhill walk/jog recovery with a 5min pause
    between series or 4-6x 1000-1200m
    w/4min jog recovery?

    The long run would start at whatever he does know and add 10min every two weeks until 2hrs?

    > If I'm racing on a hilly course, I like to do some of my training runs and speed work on similar
    > terrain.

    Yes, and the key word is "some", as in one a week: there is always a serious risk of the aerobic
    runs becoming too hard. (Later one can make that run fartleklike by running the up- hills at
    harder effort.)

    Thus, a week´s program would, in principle, include:

    1 45min aerobic run 1 hill or interval session 1 60min aerobic run 1 2x15min or 20-30min tempo run 1
    long run 1 45-70min aerobic run

    (Quite a bit of fine-tuning could be done by gauging one´s vVO2max (roughly, the speed at which one
    races 6min *hard*) or one´s LT (the pace or the HR at which one can race for 1hr) - and some fine-
    tuning may be required to succeed here...=

    Anders
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, DrLith wrote:
    > "Globaldisc" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > m03.aol.com...
    >> pray. that's my advice. you characterized a 20-30 miles/week program as
    > a
    >> "strong" training program....huh? your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR
    > on
    >> this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and you goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile
    > on
    >> this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat track
    >> at 3 miles.
    >>
    >> have you ever heard of the term, "snowball's chance in hell"? how about,
    > "when
    >> pigs fly"?
    >>
    >> your goals are too unrealistic relative to what you've accomplished to
    > date.
    >> i'd even go so far as to question your whole notion of seriously training.
    >
    > I don't know if it's common knowledge to the big boys in New York City--I lived for a long time in
    > the QCs, and the Bix 7 is definitely the biggest local sporting event of the year--but at any
    > rate, the guy *is* talking about a race that is still 7.5 months away.

    It would have helped if the poster volunteered more information about the race ...

    I think it's way premature to set detailed goals for a race so far away. The best thing he could do
    now is just build up some milage over the next 6 weeks.

    Then follow one of the 24 week programs (again, building milage in the early phase of the program)
    in "The Daniels Running Formula" (Jack Daniels) if he's serious/disciplined enough to do it. Some
    time closer to the race, he'll be able to use the build-up races to set goals.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  8. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Anders Lustig wrote:

    > For instance, 2x 5x 90-120s uphill w/downhill walk/jog recovery with a 5min pause between series

    Would it be beneficial to have some of these run the downhill / walk/jog the uphill - at least on
    some of the shallower hills - to prepare legs for the inevitable? I didn't see an elevation profile
    on the web page to have any feeling for how big / steep / long these hills are and the potential
    quad thrashing.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  9. Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > I think it's way premature to set detailed goals for a race so far away.

    Hmmm. Okay, here it comes: I´m gonna go sub-28 in a flat 8K race next September!

    You know, a certain championship winner not only set on the time he was going to win in two
    years before the event - and he noted down the time of the medal ceremony in his training log
    book as well:)

    If the training *right now* is based on what one can do *right now* (and not on the goal which may
    well turn out to have been a bit too ambitious), there is only the risk of a bigger dis- appointment
    - but if one cannot handle it, one should be wary of setting *any* kind of goals in life...

    > The best thing he could do now is just build up some milage over the next 6 weeks.

    And keep it that way for another 6 weeks, base-building in a true Lydiardian sense, if he can bring
    himself to do all that slow running (which I doubt and therefore suggested a bit more varied weekly
    program which shouldn´t have too much of anything or too much of the same - even if you keep at it
    for seven months...).

    > Then follow one of the 24 week programs (again, building milage in the early phase of the program)
    > in "The Daniels Running Formula" (Jack Daniels) if he's serious/disciplined enough to do it. Some
    > time closer to the race, he'll be able to use the build-up races to set goals.

    Too much realism in the beginning may sometimes stand in the way of achieving anything in the end,
    you know:)

    I know *I* would never have bothered to start training - as opposed to just running - if I hadn´t
    settled on a "premature" (and, yes, impossible) goal in the first place. One can always do a
    reality/ sanity check closer to the race!

    What little I know about Daniels "Running Formula" suggests that one could certainly do worse than
    follow his programs - but the poster didn´t ask us which book he should read:)

    Anders (who´ll follow the example of R.H. and retire "for ever"; so please accept my season´s
    greetings in advance, everyone!)
     
  10. Rcase

    Rcase Guest

    [email protected] (Globaldisc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > pray. that's my advice. you characterized a 20-30 miles/week program as a "strong" training
    > program....huh? your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR on this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and
    > you goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile on this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to
    > clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat track at 3 miles.

    For someone who has never consistently ran, running 5 days a week felt strong, and i have gotten
    signifcantly stronger. I said that i ran with my roommate is signifcantly slower, and now i need to
    break away to have a chance of running that time. The race is over 7 months away, i dont think
    setting a goal of reducing less than 1 minute off my 5k. I said my PR on the course was 53 minutes,
    but that was with absolutely no training.
    >
    > have you ever heard of the term, "snowball's chance in hell"? how about, "when pigs fly"?
    Thanks for the ambition, i suppose i should have just laid down on the couch and ate doritos the
    last 4 months.

    >
    > your goals are too unrealistic relative to what you've accomplished to date. i'd even go so far as
    > to question your whole notion of seriously training.
    My whole notion of serioulsy training? I work 2 jobs, have school, and am the captain of the
    Universities Tennis team. If im not doing that im running, period.

    >
    > you've defined a tall order for yourself and it would serve you well to understand the sacrifices
    > and commitment you're going to have to make to make the "leap" you're seeking to....
    I simply asked what "sacrifices" and "leaps" i would have to do to make this goal possible. In over
    a half a year, you can do a lot of things, if you do it everyday.

    >
    > good luck...you're going to need it.

    No what i needed was someone to explain to me what i needed, not someone to tell me im crazy, i have
    no chance, and that im not dedicated, without even knowing me. :(
     
  11. Rcase

    Rcase Guest

    Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Sounds good. Doing training runs at an easy pace is usually a good idea. The only drawback to
    > training slowly is that it takes a little longer to get in the same milage. Also, you obviously
    > need to do speed work at your own pace.
    >
    > First, some important questions:
    >
    > (1) What pace were you doing on your normal training runs ?
    > (2) Could you give more details on how you've been training ? What does a typical training week
    > look like ? Include the pace of your different runs.
    > (3) How long until the race ?

    I recently acquired a timex distance GPS, i will let everyone know how i am doing when i get a
    chance. I have running basically the same course over and over again for the last 4 months :( I
    figured that was better than anything else.

    The guy below knocked my training, but before this the only recorded time i had in a 5k was
    23 minutes.

    > When is the race ? A 44 minute pace for 7 miles is comparable to a 6:00 pace for 5k. You're going
    > to need a substantial improvement to do that.

    Race is the last weekend in July. I know :)
    >
    > My suggestion would be to run a 5k close to the race and use that for goal setting.

    I will be runnign every 5k within 100 miles between now and the race (schedule permitting)
    >
    > Long runs would help. Building milage would also help. Some tempo runs would also help. A small
    > amount of hill training would help. Given the hilly course and the duration of the race, I'd favor
    > hill training over other speed work (and I'm not even a big fan of hill training).

    I will start trying to run specifically hilly courses ;)
    >

    >
    > If the race is well organised, you shouldn't have a substantial "starting mile delay". But it is
    > worth taking it easy on the first mile anyway.
    >
    The race is extremley organized, but there is 13k people running it. The elite runnners (31-35
    minutes) are up front, if i can run a 10k under a certain time withing a month or so, i can also get
    an elite number, (drastically reducing my time)
     
  12. In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
    > [email protected] (Globaldisc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]
    > m03.aol.com>... For someone who has never consistently ran, running 5 days a week felt strong, and
    > i have gotten signifcantly stronger. I said that i ran with my roommate is signifcantly slower,
    > and now i need to break away to have a chance of running that time. The

    Went over this in my other response, but in short, you *should* be running your training runs at a
    substantially slower pace than racing speed. I doubt that doing training runs slowly has hurt you
    unless you're doing them at 11 minutes per mile or something.

    > race is over 7 months away, i dont think setting a goal of reducing less than 1 minute off my 5k.

    It's not a 5k. It is a very ambitious goal. And you didn't say that the race was 7 months away (the
    typical poster here is talking about a race that is 2 months away)

    Even for a race 7 months away, that's a very ambitious goal.

    Fortunately, you're going to be racing 5k runs, so the regular feedback will help you set a more
    realistic goal on the day.

    > My whole notion of serioulsy training? I work 2 jobs, have school, and am the captain of the
    > Universities Tennis team. If im not doing that im running, period.

    Your personal life is beside the point -- the point is that your goal requires very serious
    training, more serious than 20-30mpw.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  13. In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
    > Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >

    > I recently acquired a timex distance GPS, i will let everyone know how i am doing when i get a
    > chance. I have running basically the same course over and over again for the last 4 months :( I
    > figured that was better than anything else.

    When you get around to designing a program, that program will no doubt use varying distances. As
    long as you're training at an easy pace (about 2 minutes per mile slower than 5k pace), the exact
    pace or distance doesn't matter.

    One of the big traps about running the same course over is that you want to avoid trying to set
    "PRs" on your training course. This is always a counterproductive exercise (but newbies do it
    all the time)

    Use races to measure your performance -- that way you keep racing separated from training.

    >> My suggestion would be to run a 5k close to the race and use that for goal setting.
    >
    > I will be runnign every 5k within 100 miles between now and the race (schedule permitting)

    Not necessary to go to this extreme. What you should try to do is run a couple of 5k races close to
    the big race (maybe 3 weeks out or so).

    >> If the race is well organised, you shouldn't have a substantial "starting mile delay". But it is
    >> worth taking it easy on the first mile anyway.
    >>
    > The race is extremley organized, but there is 13k people running it.

    I see.

    > The elite runnners (31-35 minutes) are up front, if i can run a 10k under a certain time withing a
    > month or so, i can also get an elite number, (drastically reducing my time)

    What's the qualifying time for an elite number ?

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  14. Rcase

    Rcase Guest

    Dot <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Anders Lustig wrote:
    >
    > > For instance, 2x 5x 90-120s uphill w/downhill walk/jog recovery with a 5min pause between series
    >
    > Would it be beneficial to have some of these run the downhill / walk/jog the uphill - at least on
    > some of the shallower hills - to prepare legs for the inevitable? I didn't see an elevation
    > profile on the web page to have any feeling for how big / steep / long these hills are and the
    > potential quad thrashing.
    >
    > Dot

    the hills are pretty crappy

    The start of the race is a 30 degree hill for almost .4 of a mile. Crappy start.

    Right before the half way point is the steepest hill in the area (death trap for cars in the winter)
    It starts at 40, and gets to damn near 70 degrees at the top (it doesnt even feel like your running,
    lol) , there is only about 20% of the race that is flat, the rest is accending, and descending.

    The end of the race follows down the same hill the start of the race. Very long, and very fast. Many
    elite runners have blown going down this, i liek your idea of testing my weaknesses
     
  15. In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
    > Dot <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]
    > news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
    >> Anders Lustig wrote:
    >>
    >> > For instance, 2x 5x 90-120s uphill w/downhill walk/jog recovery with a 5min pause between
    >> > series
    >>
    >> Would it be beneficial to have some of these run the downhill / walk/jog the uphill - at least on
    >> some of the shallower hills - to prepare legs for the inevitable? I didn't see an elevation
    >> profile on the web page to have any feeling for how big / steep / long these hills are and the
    >> potential quad thrashing.
    >>
    >> Dot
    >
    >
    > the hills are pretty crappy
    >
    > The start of the race is a 30 degree hill for almost .4 of a mile. Crappy start.
    ...
    > near 70 degrees at the top (it doesnt even feel like your running,

    I think you're making this up. (You wouldn't be able to run such a course in 53 minutes without
    training. You'd be walking most of the course)

    It would be interesting though to get some idea of what the inclines really were. Maybe it's on the
    website ...

    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  16. Dot

    Dot Guest

    RCase wrote:
    > Dot <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]
    > news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
    >
    >>Anders Lustig wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>For instance, 2x 5x 90-120s uphill w/downhill walk/jog recovery with a 5min pause between series
    >>
    >>Would it be beneficial to have some of these run the downhill / walk/jog the uphill - at least on
    >>some of the shallower hills - to prepare legs for the inevitable? I didn't see an elevation
    >>profile on the web page to have any feeling for how big / steep / long these hills are and the
    >>potential quad thrashing.
    >>
    >>Dot
    >
    >
    >
    > the hills are pretty crappy
    >
    > The start of the race is a 30 degree hill for almost .4 of a mile. Crappy start.

    Gets the runners strung out pretty quickly, I'm guessing ;)

    >
    > Right before the half way point is the steepest hill in the area (death trap for cars in the
    > winter) It starts at 40, and gets to damn near 70 degrees at the top (it doesnt even feel like
    > your running, lol) , there is only about 20% of the race that is flat, the rest is accending, and
    > descending.

    Hmmm, you might want to check your slope estimates. 90 deg is vertical. It sounds like this may be a
    bluff or river cut bank that the road goes up. For the sake of argument, I'll assume that the slopes
    are somewhere near 10% since that's where hwy depts usually put signs on paved roads for trucks to
    use lower gears at 10% and steeper.

    Regardless of exact measurements or estimations, "it doesn't even feel like your running" may be the
    operative phrase ;) This suggests the need for strength and endurance at running hills of that
    steepness. If you have similar hills near where you normally run, I'd pick the steepest of those and
    run it repetitively for one of your hill workouts to build leg strength on it. I'd pick the longest
    hill and run it to build endurance. If your estimate of the first hill being .4mi is accurate, it
    will take more than 2 min to run one hill so you need to get used to pacing yourself. If all you
    have available is smaller hills, then you'll just have to use repeats of smaller ones.

    Caveat: I'm a beginner who likes to run hilly trails and whose training tends to be regulated by
    season (spotty in summer with field work, more consistent in Alaska winter but usually on snow)
    soooo I tend to take a different approach to running than most here. The most training advice I got
    from books and experienced runners concerning hills was to practice, practice, practice. Simulating
    race course as much as possible. Strengthening weaknesses. In particular, I don't worry about pace
    and train more by system. So you'll have to figure how these might fit with what the others already
    indicated. IOW, this is what I've gleaned from others and adapted to my trails and goals, but it may
    not work or be appropriate for you since I don't really know where you stand with respect to hills -
    whether you normally run hilly roads...?

    Anders gave you a good diversity of workouts and suggested arrangement (alternating hard/easy days,
    only 1 hard workout a week). Intervals and hills are both considered "hard", so only one a week.
    I'll suggest some other possibilities for the "hill" day. The 90-120 sec repeats may work fine for
    your hills, but some variation may also work since you've got 7+ months. Given that you have that
    much time, I think I'd periodize to build strength and endurance on hills first, then increase
    effort and train the other systems (see below) closer to race date.

    Some people favor simulating the route as closely as possible (that is, if your race has a 500ft
    hill - vertical ht, not road distance - then strength / endurance train on a 500 ft or bigger hill).
    Others may favor doing enough high quality repeats to simulate it (the 500 ft hill might become 5 or
    more x 100 ft hill repeats). For something that I can't run yet, I'll start with repeats, and
    increase the length of them as I get stronger and build endurance. (I'm talking 20-30% slopes on single-
    track trail and my achilles tends to be limiting factor so this has worked for me). Since I don't do
    speed work, my "hard" session per week tends to alternating repeats (aerobic effort for me for now)
    on steep hills with same on gentler hills or running rolling hills with a non-hill run every 3rd or
    4th week - depending on a lot of things. One of these could be downhills on gentler hills. I haven't
    reached the point of worrying about speed yet. With this approach you'll have to figure out where
    your present conditioning is relative to the steepness, longest climb, total elevation change to
    figure out where's a good place to start. That is, identify your weaknesses relative to the course.

    Then again, if your hills are really more on the order of 5% slope and you can run them in a couple
    minutes, forget about the above. Anders repeats would do quite well for those and trains your
    glycolytic pathway (activities in the 10-120 sec range) whereas my stuff focuses on aerobic (> 2min)
    and strength. (you said "nasty hills" which kicked me into this mode ;)

    If you do a google search over the past year for authors "Roger 2k" or "Lyndon" and "hill" and
    "sprint", you'll find some posts that Lyndon suggested for Roger when training for a 1/4 mile hill
    sprint. Roger 2k's done the Bix 7 and I have no idea if that hill has any resemblance to hills on
    Bix 7 course, but that may give you some ideas for short hill training. This might (or not) be
    suitable for your training (note the background assumptions).

    Some other workouts suggest 3 min hills - long enough to stress the aerobic system, but short enough
    that the length won't deter you from doing "one more". Just be careful of doing "one too many". I
    chose 4+ min for some of mine because my normal trails were 2-3 min hills and the 4+ min hills made
    me stronger and built endurance.

    With most repeats, people start with about 4 (or less, depending on where you are relative to that
    workout), then add 1 per week.

    >
    > The end of the race follows down the same hill the start of the race. Very long, and very fast.
    > Many elite runners have blown going down this, i liek your idea of testing my weaknesses

    Hmmm, not so much "testing" weaknesses, as "preparing" and building strength so you don't blow
    during the race. Many people avoid downhills during training because of injury potential. I do my
    downhills gently so far since I don't have the strength yet, but I do run, not walk, them to learn
    technique and build strength (this is 30% slope on single track so some different issues). I do my
    best to improve my weaknesses. More advanced runners may run the downhills harder.

    Agaim, remember I've coming from a hilly trail running perspective and some (all?) of this may not
    make sense if your hills are short and gentle.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  17. [email protected] (Globaldisc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > This goal....going from 7:43/mile to 6:17/mile at 7 mile distance in 7 months.

    Your 7:43 is based on his (2003, presumably) race PB of 53 mins, is it not? Where the poster is now
    is pure guess- work but 51 minutes (extrapolating from his 19:50/3miles and adding 1 min for
    difficult course) would put him at
    7:17 - which would make it *only* (or "only") a minute to drop off...

    > 1). You don't have the time required to do that.

    If he´s honest about not running consistenly until four months ago, he could very well be capable of
    a fairly steep development curve - unlike you and me, he´s not an old bugger:)

    OTOH if four months of 5 days/20-30miles per week hasn´t resulted in better than 6:37/mile in a three-
    miler, he doesn´t strike me as a hot prospect for the title of the "Most Astonishing Development
    Since David-in-Hamilton", either.. (like "David in Hamilton")

    > 2). You don't know what it means to run 50-60 miles/week. You're going to have to to accomplish
    > this goal and this is a complete "unknown". No, I am not willing to assume you can train and run
    > these distance day after day, week after week....

    8) 50-60 miles/week is not necessary to achieve his goal, he can do it with five hours of running
    or 40 miles (that is, assuming he *can* do it).

    9) *I* didn´t know what it meant to run the amount I did when I commenced on serious, motivated,
    "irrealistic goal"- oriented training - but that didn´t stop me from "doing it".

    10) You have a funny way of assuming things about other people with amazing ease! You may be right,
    you may be wrong, but it´s still funny.

    > and in context with the rest of your life?....c'mon...

    OK, this may be a concern - but let him do his own priorisizing:)

    > And ya know what...you shouldn't. School should be your priority, not some race in July. Live your
    > life, study hard, continue being a leader for your Tennis squad....run when you can....but just
    > take the race as it comes. Show up and do your best. You're a young kid. You've got plenty of time
    > ahead to do what it takes to pull off a 6:17 in this race. You'll have plenty of races ahead of
    > you in life...

    You have obviously forgotten what it was like to be young:)

    11) When you´re not much over 20, you can cram activities and things into your life and recover from
    one thing by doing another!

    12) When you´re not much over 20, you don´t do things half- heartedly, you do them with mad
    ambition or not at all! OK, you may give up on some of those, but youth is no time for middle-
    aged realism!

    Besides, aren´t you the wrong person to emphasize realism and achievable goals here?:)

    FWIW it would be quite ince and interesting - especially for a known, head-ïn-the-clouds-and-a-cloud-in-the-
    pants loser like me - to see what *your* training program culminating(?) in Boston looks like (how
    you´ve set up the various phases and how each training week *turned out*) and what goal you have set
    for yourself (and how that goal has determined, if it has, determined aspects of your training)!

    But, please, don´t consider it an obligation:)

    Anders
     
  18. Tim Downie

    Tim Downie Guest

    Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

    > It would be interesting though to get some idea of what the inclines really were. Maybe it's on
    > the website ...

    I'm sure you've found this http://www.bix7.com/images/2003/racemap_lg.gif but in the absense of any
    vertical or horizontal scales, it's impossible to know what the actual inclines are.

    Tim

    --
    Remove the obvious to reply by email.
     
  19. Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > I think you're making this up. (You wouldn't be able to run such a course in 53 minutes without
    > training. You'd be walking most of the course)

    Methinks he´s a bit clueless about those degrees...

    > It would be interesting though to get some idea of what the inclines really were. Maybe it's on
    > the website ...

    http://www.bix7.com/images/2003/racemap_lg.gif - this must be one of the most useless course maps
    I´ve seen!

    Anders
     
  20. In article <[email protected]>, Anders Lustig wrote:
    > [email protected] (Globaldisc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]
    > m17.aol.com>...
    >
    >> This goal....going from 7:43/mile to 6:17/mile at 7 mile distance in 7 months.
    >
    > Your 7:43 is based on his (2003, presumably) race PB of 53 mins, is it not?

    Yes, on almost no training. He shouldn't have much trouble knocking a full minute off his "no
    training" performance. Beyond that, it's really hard to say -- depends on how well he responds to
    training. I have seen one guy make this sort of improvement, but he's a very gifted runner, and he
    built his milage up to 60mpw.

    > FWIW it would be quite ince and interesting - especially for a known, head-ïn-the-clouds-and-a-cloud-in-the-
    > pants loser like me - to see what *your* training program culminating(?) in Boston looks like (how
    > you´ve set up the various phases

    Boston is April 19 ... by my count, if he wants to do a 16 week training program, he needs to start
    that program in 10 days ...

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
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