Training for PR in BIX 7 (7 mile Hell)



[email protected] (Anders Lustig) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> What little I know about Daniels "Running Formula" suggests that one could certainly do worse than
> follow his programs - but the poster didn´t ask us which book he should read:)

What little I know can be found at: http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-aug-00.htm
http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-nov-00.htm

> Anders (who´ll follow the example of R.H. and retire "for ever"; so please accept my season´s
> greetings in advance, everyone!)

Anders (who just checked in to see whether he´s being missed...)
 
In article <[email protected]>, Anders Lustig wrote:
> [email protected] (Anders Lustig) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> What little I know about Daniels "Running Formula" suggests that one could certainly do worse
>> than follow his programs - but the poster didn´t ask us which book he should read:)
>
> What little I know can be found at: http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-aug-00.htm
> http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-nov-00.htm

The program outlined in the book is a periodised 24 week program. Takes some discipline to follow,
but it's very effective especially for someone who wants a long buildup and peak for one particular
race. The poster could probably make great improvements following almost any program (-; But given
the amount of time available (the only variable that's on his side!) it appears to make some sense
to put that time to good use and go with a longer program.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
"Anders Lustig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > I think you're making this up. (You wouldn't be able to run such a course in 53 minutes without
> > training. You'd be walking most of the
course)
>
> Methinks he´s a bit clueless about those degrees...
>
>
> > It would be interesting though to get some idea of what the inclines
really
> > were. Maybe it's on the website ...
>
> http://www.bix7.com/images/2003/racemap_lg.gif - this must be one of the most useless course maps
> I´ve seen!

The first long hill I would estimate roughly at about a 10-12% grade for a half mile, and then
drops off a bit to around 5% for another 3/4 mile. The second major hill gets up to about 15% for a
block or two.
 
"Globaldisc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR on
> this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and you goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile
on
> this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat track
> at 3 miles.

I went from a 5k time of 20:20 (6:33/mile) to 17:09 (5:31/mile) in a period of about 15 months, so
improvements of this nature are possible.

However, I trained much harder than the poster indicated - putting in 50 - 60 mile weeks for a long
time, occasionally going up to 70+ miles.

cheers

--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org
 
"SwStudio" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Globaldisc" <[email protected]> wrote in message your 5K time is 6:50 min/mile. your PR on
> > this tough course is 7:34 min/mile and you goal is to clock 6:17 min/mile
> on
> > this tough course over 7 miles? you're not really close to clocking 6:17 min/mile on a flat
> > track at 3 miles.
I have another race tommorow (5k) on a little more aggressive course than before.

>
> I went from a 5k time of 20:20 (6:33/mile) to 17:09 (5:31/mile) in a period of about 15 months, so
> improvements of this nature are possible.
I believe that anyone can do anything, i put my mind towards finsihing out my last 2 semesters of
college with 3.8gpa's or higher, i am swinging that so far!

I understand athletics are a completely different thing, but like most things, i believe your body
can be trained to do things. I have known people that have doubled their Max Bench in less than 8
months, with absolutely no workouts previously.

> However, I trained much harder than the poster indicated - putting in 50 - 60 mile weeks for a
> long time, occasionally going up to 70+ miles.

If i need to work harder i will start. The local president of the runnign club told me that the
winter is not a time for distance, its a time to keep your muscles going or "maintenance"

I apologize for my above post, i know my personal life has nothing to do with it, however i spend X
amount of time ruinnign regardless of how many things i do, so i believe i am dedicated.

I also now believe it will be difficult for me to accomplish a goal such as this. But the harder i
work towards it, the happier i may be running a say 47 minute race... or something.
 
In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
> "SwStudio" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...

> I believe that anyone can do anything,

Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of people who I can say with confidence will never run
a sub 4 minute mile (for example).

It's good to be optimistic, and it's hard to know what your potential is without giving it your best
shot, but it's precisely *because* it's hard to know what your potential is that it's also hard to
set precise goals. The pace you mentioned, 42 minutes, is not impossible -- but the odds are very,
very, very long. But who knows, maybe you'll be able to do a sub 40.

Whatever happens, if you train consistently, you *will* do *much* better in the Bix than you have in
previous performances.

> things, i believe your body can be trained to do things. I have known people that have doubled
> their Max Bench in less than 8 months, with absolutely no workouts previously.

"Absolutely no workouts previously" is actually an advantage in this context (because it means that
there is more room for improvement) It is much harder for someone who has 5 years of weight training
experience to double their max in 8 months.

> If i need to work harder i will start. The local president of the runnign club told me that the
> winter is not a time for distance, its a time to keep your muscles going or "maintenance"

That might be a good rule of thumb for an experienced athlete, but for a relative beginner who is
looking to improve, this guideline has little merit.

> I apologize for my above post, i know my personal life has nothing to do with it, however i spend
> X amount of time ruinnign regardless of how many things i do, so i believe i am dedicated.

Dedication is best invested in consistency. Your best bet would be to steadily build some milage.

> I also now believe it will be difficult for me to accomplish a goal such as this. But the harder i
> work towards it, the happier i may be running a say 47 minute race... or something.

Yep. 47 minutes is usually comparable to a sub 20 on a comparable course for 5k. But remember to
take into account the course difficulty -- IMO that's worth about a 1:30 adjustment to your the 5k
times (that is, 47 min for the bix is like an 18:30 5k on a flat and fast course) That adjustment
comes from comparing record 10k times against the 10k time equivalent to the course record for the
Bix, and the factor is about a 6.5% time penalty.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
> > "SwStudio" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...

> Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of people who I can say with confidence will never
> run a sub 4 minute mile (for example).

I completely agree, but thats almost a genetic breakdown of the body, sub 4 - minute miles cannot be
attained by more than a handfull of people in the world.

>
> It's good to be optimistic, and it's hard to know what your potential is without giving it your
> best shot, but it's precisely *because* it's hard to know what your potential is that it's also
> hard to set precise goals. The pace you mentioned, 42 minutes, is not impossible -- but the odds
> are very, very, very long. But who knows, maybe you'll be able to do a sub 40.
>
> Whatever happens, if you train consistently, you *will* do *much* better in the Bix than you have
> in previous performances.

Thats the best part of setting optimistic goals, you work your ass off, and see what happens in the
end. any way this works out, i will be signifcantly faster than before. :)

> > things, i believe your body can be trained to do things. I have known people that have doubled
> > their Max Bench in less than 8 months, with absolutely no workouts previously.

I meant that i have never actually trained, but i see your point. I use my legs every day, they dont
really necessarily utilize their chest muscles walking to work.

>
> That might be a good rule of thumb for an experienced athlete, but for a relative beginner who is
> looking to improve, this guideline has little merit.

in reference to the maintenace phase, you believe that i should continue to build my base, near the
10-12 mile mark , nightly?? I have seen so many trainging schedules, that i dont understand how some
of you run 150 miles a month , most schedules i have seen do not recommend that.
>
> > I apologize for my above post, i know my personal life has nothing to do with it, however i
> > spend X amount of time ruinnign regardless of how many things i do, so i believe i am dedicated.
>
> Dedication is best invested in consistency. Your best bet would be to steadily build some milage.

I AM EXTREMELY dedicated, to everything i do, and law school possibly in the fall throws one more
thing to work at.
>
> > I also now believe it will be difficult for me to accomplish a goal such as this. But the harder
> > i work towards it, the happier i may be running a say 47 minute race... or something.
>
> Yep. 47 minutes is usually comparable to a sub 20 on a comparable course for 5k. But remember to
> take into account the course difficulty -- IMO that's worth about a 1:30 adjustment to your the 5k
> times (that is, 47 min for the bix is like an 18:30 5k on a flat and fast course) That adjustment
> comes from comparing record 10k times against the 10k time equivalent to the course record for the
> Bix, and the factor is about a 6.5% time penalty.
\ Where did you get this information from? They have breakdowns for the bix into 10k form? Thats
really cool!

So if i can run a 20 minute sub time 5k, the bix will still be so much more difficult that i will
not be able to run it.... URRR!

I spoke to someone last night that told me i am losing tons of time down the hills on the bix. He
said i should be able to drop over 1 minute off my last mile just going down brady. (THE LONG HILL
AT THE END) He said by training with this group locally, i can learn to run on the tips of my toes
down hills

Cheers

Another 5k Race today, the saga continues
 
In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
> Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> In article <[email protected]>, RCase wrote:
>> > "SwStudio" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

>> That might be a good rule of thumb for an experienced athlete, but for a relative beginner who is
>> looking to improve, this guideline has little merit.
>
> in reference to the maintenace phase, you believe that i should continue to build my base, near
> the 10-12 mile mark , nightly?? I have

I don't know what you mean by this. You don't need to average 10 miles per day, if that's what
you're saying. Anything up to 40 miles per week would be good though. But especially given that time
is on your side, it would be in your interests to get there via steady milage increases, for
example, a 10% increase each 3 weeks. Proceeding in this manner, it will still take some time to
build to 40 miles per week.

> seen so many trainging schedules, that i dont understand how some of you run 150 miles a month ,
> most schedules i have seen do not recommend that.

For a runner who wants to run the times you're aiming at, over a distance of 7 miles, 40 miles per
week or more is appropriate. Glover's book suggests 30-50 miles per week for an "advanced
competitor" and 40-70 for a "local champion". I think your more ambitious goal would require a
"local champion" level performance by the definition Bob is using.

>> Dedication is best invested in consistency. Your best bet would be to steadily build some milage.
>
> I AM EXTREMELY dedicated, to everything i do, and law school possibly in the fall throws one more
> thing to work at.

Yes, I'm not doubting your sincerity. But I am also suggesting that *instead* of expressing your
dedication by racing every two weeks, and doing a lot of speedwork, express it by *slowly* building
a consistent milage base.

The point is that there are different ways that one can be dedicated, some are smart and
some aren't.

>> Yep. 47 minutes is usually comparable to a sub 20 on a comparable course for 5k. But remember to
>> take into account the course difficulty -- IMO that's worth about a 1:30 adjustment to your the
>> 5k times (that is, 47 min for the bix is like an 18:30 5k on a flat and fast course) That
>> adjustment comes from comparing record 10k times against the 10k time equivalent to the course
>> record for the Bix, and the factor is about a 6.5% time penalty.
> \ Where did you get this information from?

The Bix course record times are available on the website. There are various prediction formulas one
can use to "convert" a 7 mile time to a 10k time, I use the same formulas used in the "Daniels'
Running Formula" book. I've made the calculator available on my website:

http://www.panix.com/~elflord/predict.html also see: http://www.panix.com/~elflord/vdot.html

Having converted the course record to a 10k time, one can use the ratio (course record divided by
10k record) to give a "course difficulty" factor. This works reasonably well as long as the runners
who compete in The Bix are of comparable ability to those who set the 10k record (and, as it
happens, they are)

> So if i can run a 20 minute sub time 5k, the bix will still be so much more difficult that i will
> not be able to run it.... URRR!
>
> I spoke to someone last night that told me i am losing tons of time down the hills on the bix. He
> said i should be able to drop over 1 minute off my last mile just going down brady. (THE LONG HILL
> AT THE END) He said by training with this group locally, i can learn to run on the tips of my toes
> down hills

When you go up and down on a net even course, you *always* lose more on the uphill than you gain on
the downhill. So it's true, you may gain a minute on the downhill, but for each such downhill, I can
find an uphill mile where you lose 2 minutes. It is surprisingly difficult to run even a 9 minute
mile pace if you're on a 10% grade (try it on a treadmill some time just to get a feel for the level
of difficulty).

This is why the course record for the race is pretty slow, despite the fact that the race attracts
the best international class runners.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
[email protected] (RCase) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Thats the best part of setting optimistic goals, you work your ass off, and see what happens in
> the end. any way this works out, i will be signifcantly faster than before. :)

If you set a pie-in-the-sky goal in school and wind up having to study into the wee hours of the
night every night in order to meet it, your head may feel likes it's going to explode, but it
won't, really.

In contrast, if you work your ass off *too hard* or in the wrong way in running, you will wind up
getting hurt. So, for example, you go out with the running clubbers and haul yourself up Brady
Street and then back down it as fast as your little legs will take you, several times in succession,
more than once a week, you stand a good chance of developing a lovely case of shin splints--which
will probably make you significantly slower than you are right now.

So, listen to the folks telling you to gradually build your base, running one longer (but slow) run
a week and maybe one faster but shorter intense workout a week (hills or track).

(BTW, greetings from fellow Rocky grad! Been back in town over Christmas break, running the trails
at Blackhawk, Scott Co. Park, and Loud Thunder like crazy).
 
RCase wrote:

> What i want to do is run the QC times BIX 7 in 44 minutes. If any of you are familar with this
> course, it is very very difficult. I have ran it now 8 years, but i have never trained for it. My
> best race without training was 53 minutes

This is about a 9 min (17%) improvement.

> I spoke to someone last night that told me i am losing tons of time down the hills on the bix. He
> said i should be able to drop over 1 minute off my last mile just going down brady. (THE LONG HILL
> AT THE END) He said by training with this group locally, i can learn to run on the tips of my toes
> down hills

Cautionary note: Do you know how your training and conditioning to date compare with these folks? Do
they know where you stand with respect to them in making this suggestion? In other words, is their
training appropriate for you? It may be, or maybe not.

Keep in mind, this is only 1 min, but presumably you could pick up similar / proportional amounts of
time on the other downhills. But there's only a few hills = a few minutes. The other gains would
have to come on the uphills.

A loop course has both up and down. People that do well must be reasonably decent at both, but the
downhill training is probably more injury prone. There's uphill races for those that only want to
run uphill, and downhill races (I think I saw one of these listed but don't remember where) for
those that only want to run down. FWIW, in the recent WMRT, the leader at the end of the "up" was in
3rd at the finish line. The winner (actually, the 1st 3 finishers) was within 2.5 sec of the leader
at the end of the 1st "up" (not sure about the 2nd hill), and no one else was in sight at the
finish. The 3 leaders at the end of the uphill, were also the first 3 across the finish, but in
different order. That is, the better downhiller won, BUT he had to be with the leaders on the up
part. Granted Brady street isn't exactly a mountain race with 3000ft of hills, but I think there's
some parallels.

Just my $.02. I'm guessing you're going to need to focus on both up and down if you want to clip 9
min from your time. One thought is to alternate weeks when you do ups and downs. That is, separate
the training as Doug has suggested in other threads, at least initially until you can get the
strength improvements in both directions. The recovery in one direction will allow you to work
harder in the direction of focus that day.

Based on your initial mis-estimates of slopes and your feeling that you're barely running, I'm
guessing you're weak at least in the uphill. And if these other people that have seen you run think
they can save you a min/mile on the big hill, then they think there's something to be gained there.
OR they happen to be good downhillers and think that's the key, whether it is or not. Keep in mind
that strength is needed both directions.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
 
[email protected] (DrLith) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (RCase) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > Thats the best part of setting optimistic goals, you work your ass off, and see what happens in
> > the end. any way this works out, i will be signifcantly faster than before. :)
>
> If you set a pie-in-the-sky goal in school and wind up having to study into the wee hours of the
> night every night in order to meet it, your head may feel likes it's going to explode, but it
> won't, really.

Ha, thats true, however My body is somewhat used to torment, my legs have never been a problem, but
i guess anything is possible. Tennis is a lot more damaging to me than running is.

> So, listen to the folks telling you to gradually build your base, running one longer (but slow)
> run a week and maybe one faster but shorter intense workout a week (hills or track).

Now part of my routine :)
>
> (BTW, greetings from fellow Rocky grad! Been back in town over Christmas break, running the trails
> at Blackhawk, Scott Co. Park, and Loud Thunder like crazy).

Fellow Alum! I am still a young buck graduating back in 00' , when for you, moved away??

To post my progress. The race i ran on New years eve had progressive inclines for about half of
it, and i still managed to cut off 24 seconds off my old best. So i guess in 3 weeks of speed
work, i did in fact get somewhat faster. Someone told me on a flat course i would have picked up
nearly a minute.

thanks for the replies!
 
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