Training or Doping - UK track cycling

[plectrum]

Good question. A couple of points:
1. I don't know any of the sprinters, but some of the endurance guys I saw win under-12 cyclocross races!! They've been groomed for this since a very young age and there have been no big jumps in performance. Phenomenal from day 1 and surrounded by a good back up team.

2. Track is a limited sport, taken seriously by a small no of countries. GB is one of the only countries that bothers much: our guys get lots of funding and lots of time together.

3. Nationality is no indicator whatsoever when it comes to determining whether someone is doping. Neither is whether they are a 'nice guy' or not.

Rob 1 & 2 fine but point 3 is disagree a little bit with. USA athletics and various other USA sports have serious doping issues which cut to the core. They are systematic be it Baseball, Athletics or Discovery team ... I mean cycling. UK has never had this issue spread throughout, sure there have been individuals, training partners etc but I struggle to remember any sports wide or generational doping issue. Also there are many other countries who have run systematic programs such as China, East Germany, Russia, Greece.

My issue is that whenever any team dominates now in cycling I am suspicious.

 

[poulidor]

Just have a look to rugby... who were the first huge players who took 3-6kg in less than one year?
Why are the football players of UK clubs running the most in the world?

But for track cycling, I do think that most of them are clean. When the French were on top of track cycling, other nations were suspicious so "we" invited them to come in France and see how we were working. After copying our methods, they improved their results too.
I hope they didn't copied doping methods!

 

[plectrum]

Just have a look to rugby... who were the first huge players who took 3-6kg in less than one year?
Why are the football players of UK clubs running the most in the world?

But for track cycling, I do think that most of them are clean. When the French were on top of track cycling, other nations were suspicious so "we" invited them to come in France and see how we were working. After copying our methods, they improved their results too.
I hope they didn't copied doping methods!

I don't understand your Rugby point but he SA and NZ are physically much bigger than European stars and there is speculation certainly about the SA. For football, our league is the best because it pays the most for players and so attracts the highest quality.

 

[rob of the og]

Rob 1 & 2 fine but point 3 is disagree a little bit with. USA athletics and various other USA sports have serious doping issues which cut to the core. They are systematic be it Baseball, Athletics or Discovery team ... I mean cycling. UK has never had this issue spread throughout, sure there have been individuals, training partners etc but I struggle to remember any sports wide or generational doping issue. Also there are many other countries who have run systematic programs such as China, East Germany, Russia, Greece.

My issue is that whenever any team dominates now in cycling I am suspicious.

Fine. But if you asked anyone in the 80's they'd have told you that the Eastern Bloc guys were all on steroids but the Western guys were clean. Now we know that the US was covering up doping positives as well. Trying to base conclusions on politics/nationalities doesn't work

As I've tried to set out, there are some good reasons to think that the GB team is clean, but the idea that Brits are naturally an honest bunch is not a good reason. To buy into that national stereotype you need to ignore a lot of evidence, from the guy at the bottom fiddling his benefits to the guy at the top sexing up his dodgy dossier - and probably some cyclists doping in the middle.

 

[poulidor]

I don't understand your Rugby point but he SA and NZ are physically much bigger than European stars and there is speculation certainly about the SA. For football, our league is the best because it pays the most for players and so attracts the highest quality.

Of course for rugby the first to become huge were from south hemispher... and then England.... Since we, french, have found how to become huge rapidly too !

For football, sure there is few english players in the league, probably less than frenchies. Despite we are all surprising that all those players are able to run so fast, so long and so often!

 

[plectrum]

Fine. But if you asked anyone in the 80's they'd have told you that the Eastern Bloc guys were all on steroids but the Western guys were clean. Now we know that the US was covering up doping positives as well. Trying to base conclusions on politics/nationalities doesn't work

As I've tried to set out, there are some good reasons to think that the GB team is clean, but the idea that Brits are naturally an honest bunch is not a good reason. To buy into that national stereotype you need to ignore a lot of evidence, from the guy at the bottom fiddling his benefits to the guy at the top sexing up his dodgy dossier - and probably some cyclists doping in the middle.

I hear what your saying but we arn't talking about benefit fraud or WOMD, this is pro sport. We have a pretty good track record interms of honesty in performance.

Interms of helping cyclings global image I think UCI could do no better than getting this group of cyclists to publically talk about the merits of clean cycling. If these performances by these UCI world gold medalists is clean then there is little better messages as to what can be acheived through clean training regimes, talent and guided development.

To be honest this is what cycling needs, and interms of road cycling stars such as Cancellara if clean to be used in a big PR push.

 

[plectrum]

Of course for rugby the first to become huge were from south hemispher... and then England.... Since we, french, have found how to become huge rapidly too !

For football, sure there is few english players in the league, probably less than frenchies. Despite we are all surprising that all those players are able to run so fast, so long and so often!

Poulidor,
The rugby players are certainly big but also this increase in power is also associated with Rugby Union becoming fully professional i.e. more dedicated training and gym time. In a past life Union players were lawyers working 9am-7pm and training at lunch and weekend!

For football, it is very much training and some of the best players in our leagues are also French such as Evra, Henry, Flamini. Also speed in football has little to do with doping, if you look at youngster Theo Walcott, he has been incredibly quick since 13 years of age.

For stamina I think there is a possibility that doping of kind is present in football and certainly Italy especially AC Milan have run systematic medical programs but whether it was illegal or not is a different matter.

Saying this in the mid 90's Italy dominated european football and in the early 00's Spain dominated but since Operation Puerto and Italy corruption charges British football has become the power. Maybe this is just because others have stopped cheating rather than we have started?

 

[Drongo]

Poulidor,
The rugby players are certainly big but also this increase in power is also associated with Rugby Union becoming fully professional i.e. more dedicated training and gym time. In a past life Union players were lawyers working 9am-7pm and training at lunch and weekend!

For football, it is very much training and some of the best players in our leagues are also French such as Evra, Henry, Flamini. Also speed in football has little to do with doping, if you look at youngster Theo Walcott, he has been incredibly quick since 13 years of age.

For stamina I think there is a possibility that doping of kind is present in football and certainly Italy especially AC Milan have run systematic medical programs but whether it was illegal or not is a different matter.

Saying this in the mid 90's Italy dominated european football and in the early 00's Spain dominated but since Operation Puerto and Italy corruption charges British football has become the power. Maybe this is just because others have stopped cheating rather than we have started?

I would be very surprised if steroid use is not fairly common in top-flight rugby. Even individual players who were less than 12 stone in 1996 were two stone heavier at the end of their careers. John Kirwan was considered a beast in the 1980s because he weighed 15 1/2 stone; I've played against a team where only the halfback weighed less than that.

EPO would also be handy, as rugby requires endurance as well as explosive power. After an hour of running your guts out, I'd want all the oxygen my body could handle.

One minor example: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/article382090.ece

 

[Crankyfeet]

EPO would also be handy, as rugby requires endurance as well as explosive power. After an hour of running your guts out, I'd want all the oxygen my body could handle.

I have a theory that Woodward's great England team at the early part of this century were on a superior endurance doping program. The new rules of rugby introduced in 1993 to quicken the pace of the game just made power and endurance more advantageous. Watching England play during their peak, one couldn't help but notice that they often finished the last 15 minutes of the game looking as fresh as they did in the first 15 minutes, in stark contrast to their opposition. But it's only speculation. It wouldn't seem that implausible though... because rugby PED's in the past were nearly all geared around steroids and other "strength" enhancers.

 

[classic1]

Rob 1 & 2 fine but point 3 is disagree a little bit with. USA athletics and various other USA sports have serious doping issues which cut to the core. They are systematic be it Baseball, Athletics or Discovery team ... I mean cycling. UK has never had this issue spread throughout, sure there have been individuals, training partners etc but I struggle to remember any sports wide or generational doping issue. Also there are many other countries who have run systematic programs such as China, East Germany, Russia, Greece.

My issue is that whenever any team dominates now in cycling I am suspicious.

As rob of the og said ' Nationality is no indicator whatsoever when it comes to determining whether someone is doping. Neither is whether they are a 'nice guy' or not.'

According to some blokes I know who witnessed it first hand, drugs were rife in British pro cycling during the 80's and early 90's.

 

[thunder]

I would be very surprised if steroid use is not fairly common in top-flight rugby. Even individual players who were less than 12 stone in 1996 were two stone heavier at the end of their careers. John Kirwan was considered a beast in the 1980s because he weighed 15 1/2 stone; I've played against a team where only the halfback weighed less than that.

EPO would also be handy, as rugby requires endurance as well as explosive power. After an hour of running your guts out, I'd want all the oxygen my body could handle.

One minor example: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/article382090.ece

think evidence is out whether the effects are linear, or you have to be close to, or exhausting, your current O2 supply.

So, if you are no where near a hypothetical aerobic threshold, because your localised muscles do not have the strength endurance, ie, legs, or perhaps chest if a swimmer, back if a rower, then you will not actually benefit at all from EPO.

May be, may be a slight recovery benefit. Or not.

 

[Anticyclone]

Some questions:

How does the effort put into track racing in the UK compare with that of other countries?
Leading on from that - if Wiggins lets say had grown up on the continent then what sort of a rider would he be? As he would have grown up into more of a road-racing background then maybe he would be a leading rider for breakaways/even GTs? If so then it is difficult to compare his ability.

What sort of scrutiny does the National lottery put on where its money goes? I would have thought they would be a bit careful as they wouldnt want bad publicity (although i suppose all publicity is good publicity).

Although not questions i would also have thought -

the british riders would be a bit more motivated for these championships than other riders. Other countries' riders are going to want to win as well of course but the home venue is going to have an effect, especially in Olympic year when the other countries' preparations may be based more on that than the world champs (which come around every year).

Women's sport has fewer numbers going in and so is less competitive than many others. Also, i would have thought that, at least in some countries, the potential financial rewards of athletics would outweigh those of cycling in the women's arena so women would be more likely to go for those if showing an athletic promise at an early age.

As others have mentioned, Britain is a relatively small country given its population (it is one of the most densely populated countries in europe despite the poorly populated upland areas of Scotland, Wales and northern England). This must make organisation easier (poor transport notwithstanding).

 

[NJK]

I have a theory that Woodward's great England team at the early part of this century were on a superior endurance doping program. The new rules of rugby introduced in 1993 to quicken the pace of the game just made power and endurance more advantageous. Watching England play during their peak, one couldn't help but notice that they often finished the last 15 minutes of the game looking as fresh as they did in the first 15 minutes, in stark contrast to their opposition. But it's only speculation. It wouldn't seem that implausible though... because rugby PED's in the past were nearly all geared around steroids and other "strength" enhancers.

One of the reasons that England looked stronger when they won the world cup in Aus was they continued on a strength training programme all the way through the tournament which i believe is about a month. Other nations stopped or tapered, a big mistake.

 

[plectrum]

One of the reasons that England looked stronger when they won the world cup in Aus was they continued on a strength training programme all the way through the tournament which i believe is about a month. Other nations stopped or tapered, a big mistake.

Also many seem to forget that we were damn lucky in the World Cup and actually underpeformed throughout the competition and won the final with a piece of brilliance in the dying seconds.

 

[Anticyclone]

It was a good team that reached their peak around the right time. A bit similar in some ways to the Ashes team of 2005 (don't mention boiled sweets though!)

 

[Crankyfeet]

FINAL MEDAL TABLE

1 Great Britain (9 gold, 2 silver, 0 bronze)
2 Netherlands (2 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze)
3 Belarus (2 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)
4 France (1 gold, 3 silver, 3 bronze)
5 USA (1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze)
6 Cuba (1 gold, 1 silver, 0 bronze)
7 New Zealand (1 gold, 0 silver, 0 bronze)
8 Denmark (0 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze)
9 Lithuania (0 gold, 2 silver, 0 bronze)
10 Germany (0 gold, 1 silver, 4 bronze)
11 Australia (0 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze)
12 China (0 gold, 1 silver, 0 bronze)
= Ukraine (0 gold, 1 silver, 0 bronze)
14 Russia (0 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)
= Italy (0 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)
= Greece (0 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)

 

[thunder]

FINAL MEDAL TABLE

1 Great Britain (9 gold, 2 silver, 0 bronze)
2 Netherlands (2 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze)
3 Belarus (2 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)
4 France (1 gold, 3 silver, 3 bronze)
5 USA (1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze)
6 Cuba (1 gold, 1 silver, 0 bronze)
7 New Zealand (1 gold, 0 silver, 0 bronze)
8 Denmark (0 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze)
9 Lithuania (0 gold, 2 silver, 0 bronze)
10 Germany (0 gold, 1 silver, 4 bronze)
11 Australia (0 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze)
12 China (0 gold, 1 silver, 0 bronze)
= Ukraine (0 gold, 1 silver, 0 bronze)
14 Russia (0 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)
= Italy (0 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)
= Greece (0 gold, 0 silver, 1 bronze)

more than 50% of gold.

rest our case

 

[Crankyfeet]

more than 50% of gold.

rest our case

No...they've just found a new way of training that has not been made aware to the other 15 countries on that list.

 

[Drongo]

No...they've just found a new way of training that has not been made aware to the other 15 countries on that list.

Cadence is less revolutionary a concept on fixed-gear bikes, it would seem.

 

[thunder]

Cadence is less revolutionary a concept on fixed-gear bikes, it would seem.

I don't think they have an institutionalised program. That would be stupid. Too risky, put the principals at risk of incarceration at worst.

My belief is there is a core, and the females may well not be privy to this, there is a core on the sprint and endurance side, who share knowledge and suppliers and perhaps even a doctor.

The young guys like Burke, Swift etc may not indulge. But their road base is in Italy.

Remember Cummings was on Discovery, and now under Corti at Barloworld. Thomas is on Barloworld. You think Hunter and Soler were clean last year? Please. Corti has his charges juiced.

Clancy and Cav did time at Sparkasse. The feeder of T-Mobile. I cannot think that Sparkasse are clean. Like Thuringer Energie, the two big espoir teams in Germany, both have a suspicious high performance like Rabobank espoirs.

I don't think they all are doping, nor is it institutionalised. But there are more than the sole rogue individual. I am even ready to consider the teams pursuit guys are all clean. I would not offer that generosity to the 2004 Athens Australian pursuit squad that broke/held the previous WR before Manchester.

Wiggins does himself no favours with his remarks. Just once I would like someone to come out and support the individual as a friend, not throw him under the bus, but then qualify his support by saying "the results and the science speaks for itself, he has never breached 50 in his entire career, so why would he now, if he was not a friend I would be disinclined to believe any reason proffered besides orchestrated doping."

But you will never hear that. I don't think it is mutually exclusive, I think the public would accept that, and for the good of the sport, you should be transparent. For the sake of the friendship if you cannot deal in honesty and transparency, what is it worth in the first place.