Training or Doping - UK track cycling

[Crankyfeet]

Wiggins does himself no favours with his remarks. Just once I would like someone to come out and support the individual as a friend, not throw him under the bus, but then qualify his support by saying "the results and the science speaks for itself, he has never breached 50 in his entire career, so why would he now, if he was not a friend I would be disinclined to believe any reason proffered besides orchestrated doping."

But you will never hear that. I don't think it is mutually exclusive, I think the public would accept that, and for the good of the sport, you should be transparent. For the sake of the friendship if you cannot deal in honesty and transparency, what is it worth in the first place.

I think Wiggins is not thinking about the truth in his answers...He knows the truth will most likely come out eventually, irrespective of what he says. He's more conscious IMO of the next 50 or so years relationship he potentially has with the guy. If he said what you said he should say... then that relationship could be irrevocably damaged, irrespective of the outcome of Hayles' situation.

In that regard... It seems like it is more a relationship based statement than covering up a doping program IMHO. Most people give their friends the benefit of any doubt until there is no doubt.

 

[Powerful Pete]

In all fairness, it seems obvious to me that track cycling in the UK is quite well supported. Look at the difference with Italy, where track is slowly becoming (or has already become) a miniscule niche that no one in the Federation really cares about.

It would seem to me that having a strong track programme and having some riders who are not riding on bread and water would help come up with the kind of results that have come out of GB.

Promising riders here in Italy are steered away from the track - money and therefore contracts are in road riding. Period. All other 'traditional' cycling disciplines suffer because of this.

As a similar example, you have guys like Franzoi who have to road race all year and then their team 'allows' them to race competitively in the cyclocross season.

 

[thunder]

In all fairness, it seems obvious to me that track cycling in the UK is quite well supported. Look at the difference with Italy, where track is slowly becoming (or has already become) a miniscule niche that no one in the Federation really cares about.

It would seem to me that having a strong track programme and having some riders who are not riding on bread and water would help come up with the kind of results that have come out of GB.

Promising riders here in Italy are steered away from the track - money and therefore contracts are in road riding. Period. All other 'traditional' cycling disciplines suffer because of this.

As a similar example, you have guys like Franzoi who have to road race all year and then their team 'allows' them to race competitively in the cyclocross season.

Pozzato has ridden the odd pursuit.

Give a coach six months and Pozzato could be on Wiggins level, with his medical program.

Pozzato and Cancellara used to swap victories in tts and prologues when they were at Mapei espoirs. Pozzato is probably the best tter in Italy by a fair whack, but he never bothers to ride that discipline now.

Cancellara would dominate if he had 12 months to get his skill set to Wiggins level. But put Wiggins on a medical program and there would be no difference.

 

[Powerful Pete]

True Thunder, but that is my point. We have even become disinterested in time trialing. For us it is all about road races and the GTs. And we accept that our riders will usually lose time in the TTs.

 

[limerickman]

Put my cards on the table .................I'm not a follower of track cycling.
But the little I do know about it, it would seems that the Aussies who dominated the sport a few years ago have declined in performance levels.

or is it that the Brits have just become better??

genuine question.

 

[Powerful Pete]

Put my cards on the table .................I'm not a follower of track cycling.
But the little I do know about it, it would seems that the Aussies who dominated the sport a few years ago have declined in performance levels.

or is it that the Brits have just become better??

genuine question.

Yes, good question, what has happened to the Australians? As Lim says, does it have more to do with the development of the Brits or a decline in the Aussies?

 

[thunder]

Put my cards on the table .................I'm not a follower of track cycling.
But the little I do know about it, it would seems that the Aussies who dominated the sport a few years ago have declined in performance levels.

or is it that the Brits have just become better??

genuine question.

I think Australia have no 22/23 yo's who can put out mega wattage on the track.

Jamieson is about 24, Renshaw 2 years older, and Dawson a year older again. There was no guy who really came thru for our teams pursuit in that age group.

Dawson stagnated, perhaps it was the resources and trying to ride some road program with SA-AIS like Tour of Gippsland. If Dawson was French, Madiot would have signed him up 5 years ago and perhaps he would have ridden the Tour. He won a stage of the Giro Delle Regioni, which is the equivalent of the biggest u23 stage race, and he had a contract with Liquigas, but he just missed the u23 qualification, so they cancelled it on him. PT teams need 2 u23 riders per squad, thus, the u23 world champs is not the est indication of potential when there are 36 odd u23 riders who do not qualify for the worlds.

Jamieson is more a pursuiter than a teams pursuiter. Zak Dempster has class but not world champion class. Wooldridge30/31(?) and Hutchison 29 (?) have passed their best, and struggling to get living wage resources.

One or two guys left after the juniors who might have gone on to the pursuit team. Miles Olman perhaps did not focus on a teams pursuit because he saw the depth in the team. Perhaps he does not have the threshold for the worlds teams pursuit. He is still on 23 turning 24.

It might be a product of their hegemony, and they never developed the guys like Olman and Jamieson. Maybe the young guys do not have the ability.

Bobridge, the Meyer bros, and Howard are keepers tho. Ask Jono L, he rides with them. Also Rohan Dennis. John O'shea might be a good track endurance rider also. Lots of talent.

Britain is on the continent. Big advantage. Australia has a 20thousand km flight over 24 hours to compete or use road competition as training miles.

Look to the young NZers.

Westley Gough 20/21. Bewley 20 and Sergeant 21. Christie 17. Pieter Bulling 15. Some great track riders coming up thru the NZ program. They will be a threat at the London 2012 in the team pursuit.

They have two good road riders coming thu, Clinton Avery, who was the main animator in Ronde Van Vlaanderen u23 last year when he was 19. And Tom David, 17yo who beat Phinney in a tt in Canada last year, and came 5th in the worlds tt.

Ofcourse, these are young young riders. Who knows their hunger and how they will develop. All well and good to have the objective of riding the Tour de France, but there are perhaps 10 thousand espoirs with that aim, and many have the talent too.

 

[limerickman]

I think Australia have no 22/23 yo's who can put out mega wattage on the track.

Jamieson is about 24, Renshaw 2 years older, and Dawson a year older again. There was no guy who really came thru for our teams pursuit in that age group.

Dawson stagnated, perhaps it was the resources and trying to ride some road program with SA-AIS like Tour of Gippsland. If Dawson was French, Madiot would have signed him up 5 years ago and perhaps he would have ridden the Tour. He won a stage of the Giro Delle Regioni, which is the equivalent of the biggest u23 stage race, and he had a contract with Liquigas, but he just missed the u23 qualification, so they cancelled it on him. PT teams need 2 u23 riders per squad, thus, the u23 world champs is not the est indication of potential when there are 36 odd u23 riders who do not qualify for the worlds.

Jamieson is more a pursuiter than a teams pursuiter. Zak Dempster has class but not world champion class. Wooldridge30/31(?) and Hutchison 29 (?) have passed their best, and struggling to get living wage resources.

One or two guys left after the juniors who might have gone on to the pursuit team. Miles Olman perhaps did not focus on a teams pursuit because he saw the depth in the team. Perhaps he does not have the threshold for the worlds teams pursuit. He is still on 23 turning 24.

It might be a product of their hegemony, and they never developed the guys like Olman and Jamieson. Maybe the young guys do not have the ability.

Bobridge, the Meyer bros, and Howard are keepers tho. Ask Jono L, he rides with them. Also Rohan Dennis. John O'shea might be a good track endurance rider also. Lots of talent.

Britain is on the continent. Big advantage. Australia has a 20thousand km flight over 24 hours to compete or use road competition as training miles.

Look to the young NZers.

Westley Gough 20/21. Bewley 20 and Sergeant 21. Christie 17. Pieter Bulling 15. Some great track riders coming up thru the NZ program. They will be a threat at the London 2012 in the team pursuit.

They have two good road riders coming thu, Clinton Avery, who was the main animator in Ronde Van Vlaanderen u23 last year when he was 19. And Tom David, 17yo who beat Phinney in a tt in Canada last year, and came 5th in the worlds tt.

Ofcourse, these are young young riders. Who knows their hunger and how they will develop. All well and good to have the objective of riding the Tour de France, but there are perhaps 10 thousand espoirs with that aim, and many have the talent too.

Thanks for that detailed answer.

It is interesting to note that a great generation of Aussie track cyclists such as Shane Kelly, Brad McGee has not been replicated subsequently.

 

[thunder]

Thanks for that detailed answer.

It is interesting to note that a great generation of Aussie track cyclists such as Shane Kelly, Brad McGee has not been replicated subsequently.

bayley' palmares is impressive, and renshaw had bucketloads of talent.

lots went straight to the road, sutton, simon clarke.

the meyers and howard all beat mcgees 3km jnr world record time I think.

 

[heinkel12]

Thanks for that detailed answer.

It is interesting to note that a great generation of Aussie track cyclists such as Shane Kelly, Brad McGee has not been replicated subsequently.

Track cycling in Australia is dying. It hasn't been looked after at all. The young blokes all want to ride the road now and the track season is but a shadow of what it use to be.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Track cycling in Australia is dying. It hasn't been looked after at all. The young blokes all want to ride the road now and the track season is but a shadow of what it use to be.

Coupled with the fact that Australia had to enter Britain through international customs and Britain didn't... . And Australians can be assured of full body searches in Beijing as some payback for the humiliating incident in Sydney where they found a suitcase full of hGH in that Chinese swimmers(?) luggage.

 

[Flyer]

that is a charade.

How many hematocrit tests has he had over his career? Lets say circa 20, to be conservative. It may well be 3 figures.

Likelihood of illness or dehydration? Next to zero. He was on a taper. No long miles, no hot weather. He is a professional athlete and knows the nutritional demands.

The testing is a charade. The numbers will reside. The window for EPO is 3 days depending on ones physiology, more for Aranesp, and it may not even register with microdose. So no legacy of EPO in his system even if he used it. He could hav etaken dynepo. Or a blood transfusion.

He was on Cofidis for a few years. Those years, one hears, that the only guys who were clean were Janek Tombak and Davide Moncoutie. He never tested +50 crit there. Never got a pass like Cioni, Ricco and Wegelius. Not that I believe Ricco and Wegelius are genuinely in need of passes, just a means to cover their breaches like Hayles.

Hayles is a veteran, surely there would be the numbers on the table, that support his high natural hematocrit, and they could have appealed and had him racing, if they showed all his tests from 45-49 which would have been plausible. But it was not plausible, because he boosted his crit illegally.

ddf

 

[Flyer]

I am watching the British riders win many races with consumate ease at these current World's. What are the views here towards whether these performances we are watching are clean based on correct training or that the team is dirty as sin?

I would like to point out here that although certainly there have been dopers in UK sports/athletics (such as Miller, Christie, Chambers, Myerscough, and almost certainly Regis) it is not usually something associated with us Brits be it Cycling stars (Boardman, Obree, Wiggins), Rugby players (Wilkinson), Football stars (Rooney, Beckham), Boxing stars (Lewis, Hameed, Hatton, Calzaghe) or Track & Field stars (Holmes, Black, Coe etc). This is also perhaps part of the reason why we lose most of the time, but this is what worries me the most, we don't normally dominate world events.

So ..... how believable are these performances?

sdff