Training/Racing Advice Needed



jsirabella said:
...I amn always confused by this within a race...how do you decide what combo of chainring and cassette to be in?...
In the end it's by feel. You don't have time and shouldn't be looking down at your rear cluster to figure out what gear you're in. Just pay attention to how your legs feel. If you're straining to push the gears then they're too big, if you're spinning out and your legs feel like the Road Runner's then you're undergeared. Just avoid plugging away at big gears and slow cadence during a crit, it will really hurt your ability to respond quickly to speed changes and your ability to close gaps coming out of corners. As Workingguy points out you'll most likely stay in your big chainring for the entire crit even if it has a small rise but your choice of rear cog depends on how fast you're spinning or how hard you're pushing. It all comes down to feel and experience and you'll only get that with practice.
 
daveryanwyoming said:
In the end it's by feel. You don't have time and shouldn't be looking down at your rear cluster to figure out what gear you're in. Just pay attention to how your legs feel.
So true, Dave. You should *never* look at your cassette. I just make a mental note of which part of the cassette I'm in - low/middle/high. If possible, ride the course prior to the race. That way you know where your shift points would be. Then it just becomes automatic - downshift-corner-accelerate-upshift-downhill-upshift more, etc. The key is shifting before you really need to, or else it's too late and you'll either mash or spin out.

They do have indicators that mount on the right derailleur cable just left of the STI lever (Shimano only, since Campy are under the bar wraps). But I guess that's not for the purist... ;)
 
If you want to buy the Raceday video, I actually work for Robbie Ventura. I think we're selling it for $15-20 (for sure cheaper than the website); email me ([email protected]) if you're interested and I'll find out when I go back to work on Friday. It actually taught me how to be aggressive in the final laps.

Try not to be confused with all this gear talk. In all honesty, you do not have to pay attention to what gears you are in as long as your are pedaling the whole time. That is, ghost pedal. Start the race in your big chainring/big cog (crosschained) and never shift to your small chainring. If you're ghost pedaling, you know what your cadence will be when you start applying force. Just shift one or two times into easier gears as you go up a hill or right into a turn. Ghost pedaling will also make sure the shift is completed before you start accelerating out of the turn.
 
Workinguy and daveryan are correct about light gears. Crits are about repeated sudden accellerations. Big gears just take too long to get moving.

I don't really shift all that much in crits. I tend to find a comfortable gear and stay there. It is really infrequent that there is a hill or a decent that requires a gear change. And, if you get up to speed quickly after turns, you generally don't have to push a real big gear in the straights. Of course, I'm talking Cat 4 and it may be different in the faster categories.
 
Frigo's Luggage said:
Workinguy and daveryan are correct about light gears. Crits are about repeated sudden accellerations. Big gears just take too long to get moving.

I don't really shift all that much in crits. I tend to find a comfortable gear and stay there. It is really infrequent that there is a hill or a decent that requires a gear change. And, if you get up to speed quickly after turns, you generally don't have to push a real big gear in the straights. Of course, I'm talking Cat 4 and it may be different in the faster categories.
What I notice about Cat 4s is that the field slows and bunches up in the corners. 123s will single file through and seem to have less of a differential of speed between the first and last guys. They also leave less margin for error. Some guys will almost touch the hay bales with their shoulders. That is, of course, viewing from the sidelines. There is that pesky upgrade requirement before I can do 123s. But hey, 25 field finishes and I'm there... There was a lot of backlash when that rule came out.
 
workingguy said:
There is that pesky upgrade requirement before I can do 123s. But hey, 25 field finishes and I'm there... There was a lot of backlash when that rule came out.
Any reason for the rule change? What was it before and why was there backlash?
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

Today my coach had me do the small loop in CP here and do 10 all out sprints in harder gears with 5 minute rests. With the powertap I was able to check the readings on each one and I was really happy. I stood in these gears during my ride back home and durng my ride back from work and these gears were tough to spin, even when I went in the drops. It was real hard in the last three rings on the cassette to stay at 80rpm. But I did notice I could do 20 mph with such a slow rpm...but you felt each stroke.

For the crit I will need to take the advice and stay in the big chainring and stay in the top part of the cassette. When the group takes off, I just need to sprint to keep up with these guys and hopefully as I get in a groove with the pack move the gears up. The one thing that I am now able to better follow the coach's schedule has done is really start to make me feel comfortable with the bike. I always hated trying to ride in the drops, it felt akward, now I want to go into them. Also I am starting to feel better on descents...now just got to get better with descents that have corners!

I will go to the park a day or so before and really see how I should attack it. I do want that race day video and will send you an email.

-js

On another note the Training and Racing with a Power Meter jusst came in and going to start reading it now!

On a side note...sorry for the comment about "when" you raced guy...:eek::eek:


iliveonnitro said:
Any reason for the rule change? What was it before and why was there backlash?
 
iliveonnitro said:
Any reason for the rule change? What was it before and why was there backlash?
I was wrong. It's 20 pack finishes.
http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580
It used to be 20 pts or 10 top 10s. I think for 07 they added 20 pack finishes. In this region (PA/DE/MD/DC/VA) early season (April) Cat 4 fields of 100 were filling within hours of registration opening. If you were asleep at the wheel, then you don't get to race, unless the weather turns crappy on race day. This was esp true with 4/5 races where field limits were 75 (USCF rule). So there was a bottleneck of 4s and they just wanted to make it easier to upgrade. There was a complaint from upper Cats that all 4s had to do was ride around with the pack for 20 miles to upgrade, vs. 3 to 2 upgrades required some talent.
 
Ok I am plowing through the training and racing with the power meter and already have a couple questions..

They seem to believe that racing with the powertap is really important for grading how you are doing but my coach said do not use it during races as you have the better wheels. What do you think?

Next, when doing the threshold test should it be an easy course with few hills and descents. Or does it just need to be the same course each and every time attacked the same way and the terrain is not as important.

-js


daveryanwyoming said:
In the end it's by feel. You don't have time and shouldn't be looking down at your rear cluster to figure out what gear you're in. Just pay attention to how your legs feel. If you're straining to push the gears then they're too big, if you're spinning out and your legs feel like the Road Runner's then you're undergeared. Just avoid plugging away at big gears and slow cadence during a crit, it will really hurt your ability to respond quickly to speed changes and your ability to close gaps coming out of corners. As Workingguy points out you'll most likely stay in your big chainring for the entire crit even if it has a small rise but your choice of rear cog depends on how fast you're spinning or how hard you're pushing. It all comes down to feel and experience and you'll only get that with practice.
 
jsirabella said:
...They seem to believe that racing with the powertap is really important for grading how you are doing but my coach said do not use it during races as you have the better wheels. What do you think?
Easy, buy both race and training wheels with PT hubs :) o.k., that's a tough investment. Personally I race with the PT. I know cyclist's like to race their lightest, trickiest wheels but I'd take the data (especially for a new racer) over having the best possible wheels. Race data can tell you where you do well and where you struggle and tell you exactly what you need to work on. That's my take on it and I'm a bit surprised your coach wouldn't prefer the data over getting you out there on your lightest or most aero wheels. Reminds me of a topic in another current thread on evidence vs. belief based coaching.

I suppose his view makes sense if your training wheels are really bunk, but then I'd solve that problem by buying a fairly decent PT wheel built on a good but durable rim and race it as well as train on it. I like to road race and TT on Zipp 404s with a PT SL hub but do crits and my training on a DT Swiss rim laced to a PT SL. I don't feel I need the 404s in crits and have seen a few too many trashed wheels in crits over the years including a guy that destroyed a Zipp 303 rim by tangling with another rider while contesting a $10 preem recently. Bummer :(

Next, when doing the threshold test should it be an easy course with few hills and descents. Or does it just need to be the same course each and every time attacked the same way and the terrain is not as important...
Steady terrain is really helpful during an FTP test but you can certainly do one on any long enough course that doesn't have traffic interruptions. Personally I don't use Hunter's 20 min*0.95 approach for estimating FTP. One of the easiest ways is to simply do 20 to 30 minute long repeats weekly and keep track of how powerfully you can do these on a regular basis. Check out this short piece by Andy Coggan on estimating FTP: http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=910290920 just tracking the power of your long intervals is recommended as the second best method right behind actually doing a 40 km time trial. There are other methods I use like Monod CP testing (which is what tells me the 0.95*20 minute method isn't as good for me) and inspecting ride files over week to month time frames looking at the power distribution histograms for a step down. But the training interval based method is great because you're training as your testing and testing as you're training so there's no days lost to dedicated tests.

-Dave
 
Definitely race the PT. Until you turn pro where the difference of 150g will really make a difference (will it really, though?), you have no reason not to race with it other than not wanting to trash the wheel.

daveryan answered part 2 well.
 
My coach has friends at Ritchey and he got me a great price on the ritchey carbon wcs and they are beautiful and tough. One of the main reasons he got them for me is that he knew I was doing terrible at descents especially thosse with curves and thought these wheels would help. He was kind of right becuase I knew it was all mental...I just needed to get more comfortable with the bike and it has started to finally happen....I really starting to feel that "one with bike zen thing", I always thought it was a joke.

The wheel which has the pt is what he called a "three fold" wheel (??) where it is suppose to be more comfortable for longer rides but alot cheaper and is a mavic rim with armadilo tires. Maybe he had nothing else at his fingertips that day but I wonder if I could put it on the ricthey rims??? will look into it.

On a more training issue, I was out with the family in Long Island today and they let me get away for a few hours and ride. LI is definitely flat...no doubt...even where buddy said was hilly, it was flat on Jericho turnpike. I got all my data recorded and will load into the computer once I could find that damn wire that allowed it to hook into computer. I have a couple questions though...

1) It seems to me that after a few hours I start to get these cravings on the bike. The one that bothers me the most is I really want to drink soda, when I stop I must buy a bottle for the sweet. I do not get it! I never drink soda otherwise. I mean I drink the water as I am riding, I even have a cytomax bottle in addition to the water but it does not matter. Also I do the power bar and power gels before and during the ride...than when I try to eat...I just can not seem to get it down my stomach. I have this strange feeling of being full and can not fit anything. I really feel if I could just get my diet right while eating, I could ride strong so much longer!! Any help??

2) I have been doing the gym one days a week, riding/gym one day and three days riding and off two days I was doing great than the strangest thing happen. Yesterday was an off day when I do my stretching and afterwards all day, I had these strange soreness/light cramps in either one of my quad muscles or IT band and knee/ankle. It made no sense as when I ride and gym I feel great and even today the day after I feel great but on my recovery days I feel the soreness...any ideas?

Thanks again for all your help guys and hoping to do an official threshold test Monday morning just to try and follow the book to the letter for now.

-js


iliveonnitro said:
Definitely race the PT. Until you turn pro where the difference of 150g will really make a difference (will it really, though?), you have no reason not to race with it other than not wanting to trash the wheel.

daveryan answered part 2 well.
 
1) How much time do you give between the time that you eat and the time you hop on your bike for a workout? What kind of food do you eat before?

2) I would quit the gym until winter and only do it for a month or so at most. Replace the gym with more riding...5x/wk at least.
 
jsirabella said:
He advised to start with the Prospect Park race which is shorter and less hilly but most people describe as a crit than a race. Well anyway I got my doors blown off twice at this race, not even being able to keep up for half a lap. I just do not get it, maybe I am just not cut out for racing but can maintain avg speeds around the track of 20mph in Central Park. It just seems as soon as I get blown from the pack I just can not keep up and just completely die which I feel is more mental. I mean I look at the results at the end of the race and they are doing laps in about 16 minutes but yet I can do it in about 18 without a pack I just get completely blown out
- Hi JS.

- I have my own tale of woe.

- Just did my FIRST road-race on Saturday. A 110kms (about 70miles) over flat roads. A couple of local pro-teams were there too.

- I train a fair bit , and like you , thought that I could 'hold on' (ie , I just wanted to stick with the group , no heroics). On my regular group rides , I suffer on flats but can drop alot of stronger riders on hills (hence my thinking that I could 'hold on').

- but I never figured on the SPEED , and the way they peloton was driven by the guys in front. Ie , they'd catch a breath and maintain 40kmh (25mph) , and then there would be burst of speed bringing the peloton up to 55kmh (34mph). They constantly yo-yo-ed the group and I just couldn't bridge the last one. I held on for about 40kms (25miles) and then got spat-out the back. Then it was me and one other poor-soul , we worked together after that.

- my small chainring never saw any action. It was blinkin' fast.

- I think need to train more , need to be able to take the changes in speed.

gawd.

.
 
pistole said:
- Hi JS.

- I have my own tale of woe.

- Just did my FIRST road-race on Saturday. A 110kms (about 70miles) over flat roads. A couple of local pro-teams were there too.

- I train a fair bit , and like you , thought that I could 'hold on' (ie , I just wanted to stick with the group , no heroics). On my regular group rides , I suffer on flats but can drop alot of stronger riders on hills (hence my thinking that I could 'hold on').

- but I never figured on the SPEED , and the way they peloton was driven by the guys in front. Ie , they'd catch a breath and maintain 40kmh (25mph) , and then there would be burst of speed bringing the peloton up to 55kmh (34mph). They constantly yo-yo-ed the group and I just couldn't bridge the last one. I held on for about 40kms (25miles) and then got spat-out the back. Then it was me and one other poor-soul , we worked together after that.

- my small chainring never saw any action. It was blinkin' fast.

- I think need to train more , need to be able to take the changes in speed.

gawd.

.
I'm probably hawking this thread too much, but I've been bored lately.

You discovered why intervals are so important in your workouts! This was your first road race and you were put in with pros??

To give you an idea, I just did a cat3 criterium for the Tour of Elk Grove. Even though the course wasn't meant to hold 130 riders, and we slowed to 5-10mph in turns, we still averaged 27.5mph. Every straight saw speeds average ~33mph; every turn saw a 600+ watt sprint to catch up to the group. Sitting near the front 25 riders still put my average power, with zeros (times when I didn't pedal), at 270watts.
 
Hi Pistole,

It sounds like to me that you are definitely ahead of the curve when compared to me. It seems you lasted very long with the other riders and was able to deal with a good number of the bursts of speed. Wish I was so lucky. In addition you are doing a 70 mile race and I have been doing more like a 17 mile race/crit. To be honest I am looking foward to doing one of the Central Park races as they are longer and hiller. I feel they may not go all out as long as they have to save for the hills and the race is an additional 17 miles making 35 miles.

As far as training, I am used to a gym and spreadsheets with weights as I came from the bodybuilding mindset. The one thing I found frustrating about cycling was the only way I felt I was getting better was by comparing myself to someone else's riding (staying with the pack). This was very, very frustrating as I am best when I am competiting with myself or something like a machine. It seemed very unscientific and honestly when lifting weights no one comes next to you and tries to lift more than you too often. With cycling, everyone and anyone wants to ride faster than you, it does not matter if they are 20 or 60, it seems to be something from childhood or just something everyone feels they can do.

My coach gave me spreadsheets with what to do for about 8 months now but finally I owe alot to Dave(??) here as he recommended the book in this thread and finally I can start with my spreadsheets and make some analysis on where and how to improve. I have passed it on to my coach and he is happy and seems to notice now I am finally having "fun" with it.

If you are like me, I would invest in the book and power meter but if you are a young stud and just want to have fun and go balls out I understand. At 42, I need all the help I could get expecting to start racing now.:)

-js

Worst that can happen with all the additional training is my wife seems to have found a new found interest in what the riding is doing to me physically atleast...:D


pistole said:
- Hi JS.

- I have my own tale of woe.

- Just did my FIRST road-race on Saturday. A 110kms (about 70miles) over flat roads. A couple of local pro-teams were there too.

- I train a fair bit , and like you , thought that I could 'hold on' (ie , I just wanted to stick with the group , no heroics). On my regular group rides , I suffer on flats but can drop alot of stronger riders on hills (hence my thinking that I could 'hold on').

- but I never figured on the SPEED , and the way they peloton was driven by the guys in front. Ie , they'd catch a breath and maintain 40kmh (25mph) , and then there would be burst of speed bringing the peloton up to 55kmh (34mph). They constantly yo-yo-ed the group and I just couldn't bridge the last one. I held on for about 40kms (25miles) and then got spat-out the back. Then it was me and one other poor-soul , we worked together after that.

- my small chainring never saw any action. It was blinkin' fast.

- I think need to train more , need to be able to take the changes in speed.

gawd.

.
 
1) Coming from my bodybuilding, I will be honest as I am a supplement pig!

Before ride -> Whey Protein Shake with Glutamine and BCAA, 4 grams Arginine, 1.5 grams of Carnitine, 2 grams Tyrosine, 2 grams of Taurine, Power Bar and a cafffine drink like spike. On heavy days I may even do Gakic.

During the ride -> Water bottles with water and glutamine, Power Gels and gatorade bottle.

After ride -> Whey Protein Shale with glutamine and something like grapefruit drink and fruit, cottage cheese or maybe yogurt...

The rest of the day is full of alot of protein in many different forms and mixing in some fats/carbs for processing the protein.

2) You are probably right but it has been hard to keep reducing it as much as I have over the last 8 months!

-js




iliveonnitro said:
1) How much time do you give between the time that you eat and the time you hop on your bike for a workout? What kind of food do you eat before?

2) I would quit the gym until winter and only do it for a month or so at most. Replace the gym with more riding...5x/wk at least.
 
jsirabella said:
...After ride -> Whey Protein Shale with glutamine and something like grapefruit drink and fruit, cottage cheese or maybe yogurt......
What about carbs to replenish the glycogen you've spent during your workout? The grapefruit drink and fruit are a start but it seems your focus is on the amino acids and protein. Aerobic exercise is fueled primarily by glycogen, especially at SST, Threshold and race pace intensities. Protein is good and necessary, but secondary to carbs when it comes to fueling cycling for both the ride and the recovery. Check out this link, especially the importance of replenishing glycogen stores right after the ride and how carbs dominate and protein is secondary: http://www.carbboom.com/education/recovery.php

Sure these guys are selling a product, but do a search on "critical half hour glycogen" or something like that and you'll find plenty of studies referencing the need to keep your glycogen stores topped up for aerobic training and racing. A lot of folks, especially those coming from weight lifting put too much emphasis on protein and neglect the importance of carbs/glycogen for endurance sports. This quote from "Advanced Sports Nutrition" by Dan Bernadot says it really nicely:
...many athletes still believe protein is the critical substrate for achieving athletic success. Although all substrates are important, delivering the right amounts of carbohydrate at the right time optimizes the limited carbohydrate stores, ensures better carbohydrate delivery to the brain, and improves endurance performance. By comparison, the common focus on excess protein consumption does little to enhance performance or a sense of well-being.
-Dave
P.S. you've hit on one of the best things about power meters in your post. They give you an objective yardstick for measuring performance gains independant of how other riders are doing. Your speed could go up or down on any given ride depending on terrain and weather but if your power steadily increases you really know the process is working. That's a big reason to not only ride with a PM, but to load and store the files for review and later comparison. It's really motivating and once you get enough PM ride history to get good data from the Performance Manager in CyclingPeaks WKO+(the best PM analysis software and well worth the price for this feature alone) you can really understand your training and peaking cycles.
 
iliveonnitro said:
You discovered why intervals are so important in your workouts! This was your first road race and you were put in with pros?

- hi Nitro

- okay , will try to work on the sprint-intervals. Painful , those.

- locally , we don't have any form of classifications (eg , Cat XX , whatever), so roadraces are "open" , everyone from local pro-teams , to National/State riders are accounted for.

- on hindsight , me thinks that it was the on-off-on-off accelerations of the peloton which really did me in. I was pretty happy cruising mid-pack, trying to keep out of the wind and looking for big-guys to hide behind (sorry .. but race-virgin here .... )

.
.

Hi JS,

- must keep on training !

cheers and good thread.

.
 
I can not believe it...got myself all psyched and did my first threshold test in cp. Had it all thought out on how to use a combo of the small circle and big circle to make the course represent the test as I want the warm up to truely be a warm up and not the ride.

Anyway wake up at my usual 5:05 and do my usual routine as I look out the window it is drizzling...:mad:....but I still go through my morning prep paces and as I look again outside it just stopped but the streets were wet. I actually like it better this way because there is one great thing that happens with that...sooo many less people in the park so I feel like I own it.,

Anyway it was a much harder test than I thought but I get to my office with my cyclo-computer, locate the docking link that I never used, buy a usb serial adapter as who uses serial anymore and I bought the powertap used and found out is is a powertap pro, start poweragent 7.1 and .... nothing!:eek:

It seems that poweragent 7.1 only works with the usb docking link as the kind customer support person told me and she says I can no longer download earlier version of the software...god was i upset....so I purchased another one and she will send it overnight. My coach who got me the powertap said I would not need the software as you can download it...ugggh!!!

If any of you good folks know where I can download an earlier version of this software so I can use it today...I would be most grateful....thank you all.

-js


daveryanwyoming said:
What about carbs to replenish the glycogen you've spent during your workout? The grapefruit drink and fruit are a start but it seems your focus is on the amino acids and protein. Aerobic exercise is fueled primarily by glycogen, especially at SST, Threshold and race pace intensities. Protein is good and necessary, but secondary to carbs when it comes to fueling cycling for both the ride and the recovery. Check out this link, especially the importance of replenishing glycogen stores right after the ride and how carbs dominate and protein is secondary: http://www.carbboom.com/education/recovery.php

Sure these guys are selling a product, but do a search on "critical half hour glycogen" or something like that and you'll find plenty of studies referencing the need to keep your glycogen stores topped up for aerobic training and racing. A lot of folks, especially those coming from weight lifting put too much emphasis on protein and neglect the importance of carbs/glycogen for endurance sports. This quote from "Advanced Sports Nutrition" by Dan Bernadot says it really nicely:-Dave
P.S. you've hit on one of the best things about power meters in your post. They give you an objective yardstick for measuring performance gains independant of how other riders are doing. Your speed could go up or down on any given ride depending on terrain and weather but if your power steadily increases you really know the process is working. That's a big reason to not only ride with a PM, but to load and store the files for review and later comparison. It's really motivating and once you get enough PM ride history to get good data from the Performance Manager in CyclingPeaks WKO+(the best PM analysis software and well worth the price for this feature alone) you can really understand your training and peaking cycles.
 

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