Training Week Ending May 30, 2004

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Swstudio, May 30, 2004.

  1. Joe Positive

    Joe Positive Guest

    On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:20:47 +0100, "Tim Downie"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >That's a fantastic improvement Karen and well deserved
    >given the effort you're putting in. I can't say that my
    >male ego hasn't suffered (my PB's still 19:50) but it's 5K
    >night again tomorrow so I'll be trying my damnedest. ;-)

    I saw your report. Good job on that race. I don't expect to
    get anywhere near your time ever (well, probably not, at
    least not until winter), so tell your male ego to relax :)

    >Just out of interest, if you're running 70 miles a week
    >now, what sort of ball park figure have you in mind for
    >your marathon?

    hmmm...I don't have a number in mind, just whatever my
    coach puts on the schedule. We've been talking about 80s or
    even 90s per week for marathon training, as long as I can
    stay healthy.

    Sometimes I really envy people who can run really well on
    relatively low mileage. The rest of the time I just
    admire them.

    Karen
     


  2. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "Dan Stumpus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Tony" <[email protected](remove)hotmail.com> wrote
    >
    > Besides, if you're going to do ultras you need to
    > learn to walk
    fast up
    > steep hills; it's much more efficient than running,
    > easier on the
    body, and
    > rests the running muscles. So view the fast walking up
    > hills as a
    necessary
    > part of your training.

    How true. I don't know if it physiology, psychology or
    astrology but I don't like to intermix the run walk until
    race day. A few more words lest you think I'm nuts. If I'm
    going to fast walk( I like the term power walk), I fast
    walk. If I'm going to run , I run. I happen to do most of my
    heavy training on a 5 mile 2,500 foot hill. Depending on
    where I am in my training I do laps(2-4) on this hill. When
    doing an arbitrary lap I either run the entire way OR power
    walk but not intermix.

    I always found that when I intermixed, it got too easy to
    justify breaking into a walk. I found this discipline helped
    me. While I would hardly ever run a sustained uphill section
    of a race, I found the sustained runs gave me a tremendous
    power base when doing the easy undulations that make up the
    majority of my races. The long hiking pulls are also a
    necessity because some of my races have 1-4 mile long humps
    and one best practice those before race day.

    By the way, When I come back down the hill I get a 5 mile
    sustained pounding. For this particular workout I get all my
    ups(walk and run) and downs. I took years building up to
    these times and intensity so I'm really covering a
    technique. YMMV.

    >
    > If you're not used to something (like running 5 miles
    > downhill
    after 4 hours
    > of running), you'll get soreness at first. This is good
    > -- you'll
    be
    > stronger after it heals, provided you take it easy.

    So true. In the warmer months I will do some very easy
    biking the day after a long run but rest is a must
    especially after pounding your quads on a downhill.

    > The effort level should be such that you can still run up
    > moderate
    hills at
    > the end of your run without loading up. This means
    > that you
    haven't used up
    > your glycogen. When you get close to empty, the
    > slightest hill
    causes leg
    > burn. This means you paced it too fast. If you can
    > still run
    smoothly
    > without straining at end of your long run, you've paced
    > it right.

    And in all honesty, this takes a long time, I'd say years,
    before you can access one's recovery rate. I'm suggesting it
    is not easy so error on the easier side.

    >
    > I am not interested in doing much the rest of the
    > day, though!
    Maybe some
    > light puttering, but not wrestling with the lawn mower...

    I'm great at a power nap and then I may be able to mow
    my lawn. :)

    > Ideally, you should end the run tired, but able to
    > maintain pace
    without
    > straining and have no muscle soreness the next day.

    Well, maybe a little. ;)

    -DougF
     
  3. Tony

    Tony Guest

    Dan Stumpus wrote in message ...
    >
    >"Tony" <[email protected](remove)hotmail.com> wrote
    >
    >> Ok did the long run today: 4:02, about 16.5 miles, 80%
    >> hilly singletrack trails, about 2700' climb, HR 145. On
    >> roads this effort would have taken
    >me
    >> about 20 to 21 miles. Heart rate too high and a challenge
    >> to keep it low; walked several times to let HR settle and
    >> to try to clear the acidity out
    >of
    >> my legs, and walked all the steep uphills. Feel pretty
    >> good after, legs feel worked but not too sore.
    >
    >Sounds good. My guide on long runs is to avoid the leg burn
    >on uphills longer than a few feet. If I can't jog slowly
    >enough on a hill to avoid
    the
    >burn, I walk. Leg burn vastly increases the rate of
    >glycogen consumption. You can run through the burn on an 8
    >- 12 miler, but you'll pay the piper
    on
    >a 20+ miler.
    >
    >Besides, if you're going to do ultras you need to learn to
    >walk fast up steep hills; it's much more efficient than
    >running, easier on the body,
    and
    >rests the running muscles. So view the fast walking up
    >hills as a
    necessary
    >part of your training.

    Yes, its easy to see how much more efficient it is to walk
    fast up steeper grades. In the 50 miler I did I would walk
    discernable uphills and passed alot of people still trying
    to run those...

    >
    >If you're not used to something (like running 5 miles
    >downhill after 4
    hours
    >of running), you'll get soreness at first. This is
    >good -- you'll be stronger after it heals, provided
    >you take it easy.
    >
    >> Question for those reading this: how tired are you all
    >> after your long runs? I think I always do too much muscle
    >> damage on my long trail runs
    >even
    >> if I walk the uphills and try to keep my effort low. The
    >> point of long
    >runs
    >> as I understand it is to train the body to endure long
    >> efforts. I know
    if
    >I
    >> go too hard any training effect will be washed away by
    >> muscle and system damage. Do any of you think about this
    >> question: what is the optimal distance and effort level
    >> at a point in time that will most effectively improve my
    >> ability to do long runs?
    >
    >The effort level should be such that you can still run up
    >moderate hills at the end of your run without loading up.
    >This means that you haven't used
    up
    >your glycogen. When you get close to empty, the slightest
    >hill causes leg burn. This means you paced it too fast. If
    >you can still run smoothly without straining at end of your
    >long run, you've paced it right.
    >
    >I run hard on shorter runs and repeat days, and on the day
    >of the race, but not on my long runs (ok, sometimes I push
    >it on the last 10-20 minutes of
    my
    >last climb). As you have surmised, when done too hard, the
    >long run becomes destructive.

    Yes I try to only go hard during one of my shorter runs
    during the week, and only if I feel good. I think its
    detrimental to go hard if your legs feel played...
    >
    >The bigger your base (average mileage in last 6 weeks), the
    >easier the long runs are. The more you do long runs (say,
    >weekly), the better you'll get, provided
    you
    >recover adequately. This is for racers, but if you
    >gradually introduce speed/repeats, your long runs will also
    >get easier and faster.
    >
    >My base is about 75-80 mpw, and my weekly run is usually a
    >20 mile out and back to the top of Mt. Wilson in L.A. It's
    >about a 5000' climb. When I'm in speed shape, I run the
    >uphill at a 155 pulse, getting to 170 at the top, in a bit
    >over 2 hours. The downhill takes about 1:15 at a pulse of
    120-135,
    >and I end the run knowing I could go another several miles
    >without any problem.

    My mpw has never been that high, and I'm trying to rely on
    alot of cross training, which should work for shorter
    ultras, but I'm not sure about a 100 miler. My running
    "base" is weak for a 4 hour run I suppose, but I've always
    trained this way - about 5 hours per week mixed running and
    walking, with a long run, bike or hike every 2 weeks or
    less. I realize I need more base, particularly running. I've
    heard of other ultra runners who don't do much between their
    weekly long runs, and I would prefer to keep it like that
    too - weigh heavily on the long effort instead of piling up
    the mpw. Hopefully this will work for me thru a 70 mile
    attempt. Then i'll see...

    >
    >I am not interested in doing much the rest of the day,
    >though! Maybe some light puttering, but not wrestling with
    >the lawn mower...

    Exactly, I just put my feet up and sleep a bit or watch tv
    and read this ng...

    >
    >> Today I felt great for the first 2 hours. At 2:30 I felt
    >> a bit of
    >heaviness
    >> building in my legs, which slowly increased until I
    >> finished at 4 hours. From past experience running in 6
    >> hour and 8 hour ROGAINEs and 50 miles,
    I
    >> know this heaviness continues to increase until my legs
    >> are stiff, hard,
    >and
    >> very "heavy". I assume this is accumulated acidity and
    >> muscle damage and
    >I
    >> think at some point the training effect becomes null when
    >> the damage
    level
    >> gets high.
    >
    >If you pace falls and your legs get heavy, my guess is that
    >you ran out of gas (glycogen) -- meaning you went out too
    >fast and/or aren't getting
    enough
    >water/sports-drink. I consume 200-300 calories per hour of
    >Cytomax or Accelerade.

    I'm sure I used up all my glycogen. I ate 3 GUs and a
    powerbar and drank about 55oz accelerade during the run.
    Should have walked a bit more at times I think...

    >
    >Ideally, you should end the run tired, but able to
    >maintain pace without straining and have no muscle
    >soreness the next day.
    >
    >> I guess this means my pace is too high for my physiology
    >> when going that long. So at what point does the run
    >> become useless damage?
    >
    >If I'm not raring to run two days later, I consider it run
    >too hard. Some of my ultra buddies will bash themself
    >enough so that they need three days to recover, but that's
    >too rich for my taste.

    Yes, I think the test is how you feel the 2nd day after.
    Sometimes my soreness increases 2days after - then I know
    I've gone way too hard...

    Thanks for the advice Dan...
    >
    >Keep at it and you'll improve -- the first one is the
    >hardest.
    >
    >-- Dan
     
  4. On 2004-05-31, WestEndGirl <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> > Upcoming races still same as last week...Corporate
    >> > Challenge 6/9, New
    > York
    >> > Mini 6/12 Just joined one of the local running clubs
    >> > this week, I think it will be
    > a
    >>
    >> Which one ?
    >>
    > I joined the Flyers-so far so good...they're good people.
    > And it's kinda nice being part of a "team" but still being
    > able to keep it an individual sport-best of both worlds.

    Cool -- it looks like a good club. While they're not
    fiercely competitive, they often place in smaller races,
    because their race participation is very good (search any
    race results for flyers and you'll see what I mean). They
    seem to be more about fostering the development of their
    members than they are on winning club championships (though
    they actually do place in the team awards from time to time
    because of their strong participation)

    I've actually been trying to get my fiancee to join them for
    some time (she runs the 4 mile at about 8:30 pace now).

    > I'm not counting on this race for a PR either (well I know
    > I will 'unofficially' PR compared to my clock time of 36
    > and change last year, and

    That's what we call a "soft PR".

    > you can say it 'inspired' me a little. So it's sorta like
    > coming full circle for me. And also, the "family
    > challenge" between me and my bro is stil aaawwwwwnnnnn
    > :)...the latest reports from the home front is that he
    > "trained" for 1 or 2 days and then gave up. So maybe he
    > won't be running 7 mpm (The fam is rooting for me to win
    > just to take his cocky a$$ down a peg...teehee)-but

    Get out there and kick his butt ;-) He's got the same
    genetics as you, so he can't have that much more talent. Male-
    female difference is only about 30-40 seconds per mile, so
    unless he's trained, he's probably not even in the race.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  5. Tony

    Tony Guest

    Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...
    >On 2004-05-31, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >Note that I'm a middle-distance guy, so my answer isn't
    >going to have much applicability to your training -- but
    >maybe it will be of some interest to others.
    >
    >> Tony wrote in message ...
    >>>.... My long runs or bikes aren't done religiously every
    >>>weekend, but every 10 days to
    2
    >>>weeks or so. 3:20 bike Sat before, and long run planned
    >>>for sunday...
    >>
    >> Ok did the long run today: 4:02, about 16.5 miles, 80%
    >> hilly singletrack trails, about 2700' climb, HR 145. On
    >> roads this effort would have taken
    me
    >> about 20 to 21 miles. Heart rate too high and a challenge
    >> to keep it low; walked several times to let HR settle and
    >> to try to clear the acidity out
    of
    >> my legs, and walked all the steep uphills. Feel pretty
    >> good after, legs feel worked but not too sore.
    >>
    >> Question for those reading this: how tired are you all
    >> after your long runs?
    >
    >Pretty tired, but still nowehere near as tired as I am
    >after racing (even racing a 5k). My long runs are as fast
    >as my shorter runs, and I do them on slightly more
    >difficult terrain -- basically road hills. These hills
    >aren't extreme, the longest climb is just shy of 100ft.
    >Just a gentle pounding, I suppose. I think you said
    >somewhere that you think it's important to
    prepare
    >your legs for the pounding one takes in long distance
    >races. Even though
    I'm
    >just preparing for a half or 10k, I like to have the extra
    >toughening up
    one
    >gets out of a slightly challenging course.

    I find it interesting that you don't slow your pace at all
    for longer runs, but seeing that you keep them to 2 hours I
    can see how that works. I can run at my normal training pace
    for up to 90 mins without any effect if I'm well rested. Yes
    the pounding on the steep hills of some trail courses (most
    around here) is very intense, and will quickly wear out your
    legs if you're not ready. Also, the twisty nature of the
    trails will really work your stabilizer muscles hard,
    especially upwards of 3 hours...

    >
    >> I think I always do too much muscle damage on my long
    >> trail runs even if I walk the uphills and try to keep my
    >> effort low. The point of long
    runs
    >> as I understand it is to train the body to endure long
    >> efforts. I know
    if I
    >> go too hard any training effect will be washed away by
    >> muscle and system damage. Do any of you think about this
    >> question: what is the optimal distance and effort level
    >> at a point in time that will most effectively improve my
    >> ability to do long runs?
    >
    >This is the part where we will inevitably diverge, because
    >optimal distance
    and
    >effort level depend on ones goal races. The miler might be
    >happy to make
    the
    >long run an easy day. For the marathon or ultra runner, it
    >may be the most important piece of quality training in the
    >schedule.
    >
    >As a middle distance guy, I put it somewhere between these.
    >I'd never push
    it
    >over 2 hours or over 25% weekly milage. I have no need to
    >train myself to
    deal
    >with bonk or dehydration, because these are not major
    >issues in my races.
    >
    >Muscle damage is also an issue -- if I feel able to take
    >more muscle
    damage,
    >I'd rather take on more challenging terrain or slightly
    >increase training intensity.

    Yes certainly the long run is most important for ultra
    training, though I'm just learning more about this, and what
    kind of distance and intensity are best for me right now to
    build on. In the past I've done runs upwards of 5 hours with
    no specific training, though these haven't been efforts
    against the clock except for 50 miles, of which I ran the
    first 50k well I thought.

    Traditional high mileage programs won't work for me because
    I've never done well trying that in the past. I'm planning
    to just increase my crosstraining volume and do a long run
    every 2 weeks now and on off weeks do a long bike or hike.
    >
    >> Today I felt great for the first 2 hours. At 2:30 I felt
    >> a bit of
    heaviness
    >> building in my legs, which slowly increased until I
    >> finished at 4 hours. From past experience running in 6
    >> hour and 8 hour ROGAINEs and 50 miles,
    I
    >> know this heaviness continues to increase until my legs
    >> are stiff, hard,
    and
    >> very "heavy". I assume this is accumulated acidity and
    >> muscle damage and I
    >
    >Probably the latter. I'm pretty familiar with lactic acid
    >and the long run sensation is different -- it's more like a
    >slow tearing of the muscles,
    which
    >causes increasing stiffness. At the end of my 15 miler
    >(about 1:45-1:55),
    it's
    >not too bad, but I imagine it would probably hurt like hell
    >were I to
    continue
    >for another 5 miles or so.
    >

    Yes its not a normal lactic loaded feeling, but it could be
    from running too high a lactate level for a long time
    causing sustained low-level damage that accumulates. I don't
    fully understand all the kinds of damage that can be done.

    >> think at some point the training effect becomes null when
    >> the damage
    level
    >> gets high. I guess this means my pace is too high for my
    >> physiology when going that long. So at what point does
    >> the run become useless damage?
    >
    >For me, anything over 2 hours. The long run is on roughly
    >equal footing
    with
    >overall training volume, and plays second fiddle to speed
    >work. It is
    performed
    >at the same intensity one would use for a 5 mile training
    >run -- slower
    than
    >marathon pace, but not much slower. Obviously this is
    >different for ultra runners.
    >
    >Cheers,
    >--
    >Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

    Thanks for the feedback...
     
  6. Dan Stumpus

    Dan Stumpus Guest

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > This is the part where we will inevitably diverge,
    > because optimal
    distance and
    > effort level depend on ones goal races. The miler might be
    > happy to make
    the
    > long run an easy day. For the marathon or ultra runner, it
    > may be the most important piece of quality training in the
    > schedule.

    I usually ran them between 1 and 2 min/mile slower than
    marathon pace
    (7:00 - 8:00/mile). This is assumes flat terrain -- in the
    mountains, it's a whole 'nother story.

    Occasionally I'd do them at 6:20 - 6:25 (with 1,300' of
    climbing!) in a friendly competition with my buddies, but
    that isn't training, it's destruction...got sick after that
    a couple of times.

    As a marathoner, I trained pretty much like all the 5k and
    10k guys, but with more mileage to make up for my lack of
    talent, and an 18-20 miler on Sunday.

    > As a middle distance guy, I put it somewhere between
    > these. I'd never push
    it
    > over 2 hours or over 25% weekly milage.

    I follow the same rule. 20 miles is 25% of my week. I will
    occasionally do a 28-30 miler, though, at a slower pace.

    > (soreness in long runs)...it's more like a slow tearing of
    > the muscles,
    which
    > causes increasing stiffness. At the end of my 15 miler
    > (about 1:45-1:55),
    it's
    > not too bad, but I imagine it would probably hurt like
    > hell were I to
    continue
    > for another 5 miles or so.

    Proper hydration and sports drinks make a big difference.
    Road runners don't know how to drink...I did a 20 miler this
    morning and went through 3 qts of Accelerade in 3:20 (5,000
    ft of climb, ran the last 9 miles at 6:40 pace). My legs
    were not tight, just tired at the end, and I'm an ancient
    8. Hydration/nutrition makes a huge difference, both in how
    you feel during the run, and in recovery time.

    > [the long run] ... is performed at the same intensity one
    > would use for a 5 mile training run -- slower
    than
    > marathon pace, but not much slower. Obviously this is
    > different for ultra runners.

    You run yours at about 1 min/mile over predicted marathon
    pace of 6:30 ish, which is not out of line with
    competitive marathoners. I preferred to go a bit slower in
    my competitive days -- I wanted to be strong for my next
    speed workout.

    -- Dan
     
  7. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]
    216.77.188.18:

    > I must have been about 45 seconds behind you

    Oops. Should be 1:45 behind you. So you probably weren't the
    guy I passed in the shute.

    Phil M.

    --
    "I gotta go. You're killin' me."
     
  8. Red Dot

    Red Dot Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:14:00 GMT, "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Red Dot <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:[email protected]:
    >
    >>
    >>>
    >>>Goals:
    >>>
    >>> 5/31/04 - Celebrate America 10K. My first race in over 4
    >>> years. Goal <43:00, 68% WAVA
    >>
    >>
    >> How did you do? I came in 15th- 41:38. Now I'm waiting
    >> for the Peachtree RR.
    >
    >Check out "Race Report: Celebrate America 5k/10k" for all
    >the gory details. I must have been about 45 seconds behind
    >you. What age group were you in?
    >
    >Phil M.

    40-44. I saw the guy pass me who got 3rd place in my age
    group. Wish I'd hung on with him!
     
  9. Tony

    Tony Guest

    Doug Freese wrote in message ...
    >
    >"Dan Stumpus" <[email protected]> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]
    >arthlink.net...
    >>
    >> "Tony" <[email protected](remove)hotmail.com> wrote
    >>
    >> Besides, if you're going to do ultras you need to learn
    >> to walk
    >fast up
    >> steep hills; it's much more efficient than running,
    >> easier on the
    >body, and
    >> rests the running muscles. So view the fast walking up
    >> hills as a
    >necessary
    >> part of your training.
    >
    >How true. I don't know if it physiology, psychology or
    >astrology but I don't like to intermix the run walk until
    >race day. A few more words lest you think I'm nuts. If I'm
    >going to fast walk( I like the term power walk), I fast
    >walk. If I'm going to run , I run. I happen to do most of
    >my heavy training on a 5 mile 2,500 foot hill. Depending on
    >where I am in my training I do laps(2-4) on this hill. When
    >doing an arbitrary lap I either run the entire way OR power
    >walk but not intermix.
    >
    >I always found that when I intermixed, it got too easy to
    >justify breaking into a walk. I found this discipline
    >helped me. While I would hardly ever run a sustained uphill
    >section of a race, I found the sustained runs gave me a
    >tremendous power base when doing the easy undulations that
    >make up the majority of my races. The long hiking pulls are
    >also a necessity because some of my races have 1-4 mile
    >long humps and one best practice those before race day.

    When I'm doing shorter runs < 1.5 hours I rarely walk and
    push through on the hills. But when going longer I try to
    save my legs and go by feel, except for the first hour when
    I purposefully hold back.

    >
    >By the way, When I come back down the hill I get a 5 mile
    >sustained pounding. For this particular workout I get all
    >my ups(walk and run) and downs.

    I wish we had a 5 mile hill nearby. The closest thing to
    that is the 2600' climb up peekamoose Mt in the catskills in
    about 3.4 miles, but all on technical trails. Maybe there
    are more gradual roads around here I don't know about yet...

    >I took years building up to these times and intensity so
    >I'm really covering a technique. YMMV.
    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >> If you're not used to something (like running 5 miles
    >> downhill
    >after 4 hours
    >> of running), you'll get soreness at first. This is good
    >> -- you'll
    >be
    >> stronger after it heals, provided you take it easy.
    >
    >So true. In the warmer months I will do some very easy
    >biking the day after a long run but rest is a must
    >especially after pounding your quads on a downhill.

    Yes I like to cycle easy the day after a long run to let the
    legs move some without any pounding. Then again if I don't
    feel like it I won'd do anything...
    >
    >> The effort level should be such that you can still run up
    >> moderate
    >hills at
    >> the end of your run without loading up. This means
    >> that you
    >haven't used up
    >> your glycogen. When you get close to empty, the
    >> slightest hill
    >causes leg
    >> burn. This means you paced it too fast. If you can
    >> still run
    >smoothly
    >> without straining at end of your long run, you've paced
    >> it right.
    >
    >And in all honesty, this takes a long time, I'd say years,
    >before you can access one's recovery rate. I'm suggesting
    >it is not easy so error on the easier side.

    Yes, I think next time I will do more power hiking and less
    running, but try to keep the distance up until i'm covering
    about 20 trail miles - to lead up to 50k.
    >
    >>
    >> I am not interested in doing much the rest of the day,
    >> though!
    >Maybe some
    >> light puttering, but not wrestling with the lawn mower...
    >
    >I'm great at a power nap and then I may be able to mow
    >my lawn. :)
    >
    >> Ideally, you should end the run tired, but able to
    >> maintain pace
    >without
    >> straining and have no muscle soreness the next day.
    >
    >Well, maybe a little. ;)
    >
    >-DougF
     
  10. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Tony wrote:

    > Dan Stumpus wrote in message ...
    >
    >
    > My mpw has never been that high, and I'm trying to rely on
    > alot of cross training, which should work for shorter
    > ultras, but I'm not sure about a 100 miler. My running
    > "base" is weak for a 4 hour run I suppose, but I've always
    > trained this way - about 5 hours per week mixed running
    > and walking, with a long run, bike or hike every 2 weeks
    > or less. I realize I need more base, particularly running.
    > I've heard of other ultra runners who don't do much
    > between their weekly long runs, and I would prefer to keep
    > it like that too - weigh heavily on the long effort
    > instead of piling up the mpw. Hopefully this will work for
    > me thru a 70 mile attempt. Then i'll see...

    This is the general approach I've been taking also -
    depending on the long run about every 2 wks for primary
    training although it's more than 50% of mileage for the week
    - although I'm just at the beginning stages of building time
    relative to others. From things I've looked at, the long run
    / total running percentage for a week tends to be lower for
    high mileage folks (>70mpw) and it's not at all unusual for
    ultra runners to have the long run greater than 50% of their
    weekly total. But many people train with a 2-3 wk microcycle
    rather than 1 wk, so weekly totals may not be that relevant.

    Some of my observations: I haven't been doing any cross-
    training this spring (usually mt bike, xc ski, snowshoe,
    swim), and my last 3-4 long runs have been in the 1:4x to
    1:5x range. Weekly total has been 3-3.5 hrs on the week with
    the long run and 2-2.5 hrs the other weeks. A lot of my
    training is driven by weather / trail conditions and when my
    field work starts. This year I had one long run completely
    on dirt (as opposed to snow or partial snow) before my race
    that was cancelled (late May), and I had to do that 3.5 wks
    out because of field work, etc, in May. I'd been doing 1:30-
    1:45 on snowshoes (walk/ running) earlier. 1:45 on snowshoes
    is not the same as 1:45 running on dirt. So there's a lot of
    just going by feel and see what works and hopefully I don't
    crash too badly.

    I'm guessing that some people may do better by increasing
    the other runs, and thus decreasing recovery, as percentage
    of week (more in line with published training schedules)
    while others will be inviting injury.

    My personal idiosyncrasy is that I like to be outside
    running, hiking, biking, snowshoeing, xc skiing, or
    whatever. When I was following the traditional 10% rule, I
    never felt that I was making any gains toward being able to
    go running for a few hours on the weekend. I felt caged, and
    would tend to revert to my other activities since I could
    just go do it for however long I wanted.

    However, once Doug suggested just go run / walk / snowshoe
    whatever for
    1.5-2 hr or whatever (anticipating race to take about 2 hr),
    I got past that 1-1:15 hump I'd been on for the last year
    or so. Granted some of that was related to xt class on
    weekends, hence long runs in winter were after work in the
    dark, as well as achilles issues. I do much better with my
    long runs on a weekend day.

    It's only on the long runs that one really trains for the
    distance. In Kevin Setnes chapter in A Step Beyond, he
    notes that the long run trains the mind, nervous system,
    muscle fiber, connective tissue, and the endocrine system.
    Some of these can be trained on shorter runs, but it's not
    obvious how to train the endocrine system except by going
    long - for at least 3 hrs. The endocrine training is
    really an experiment of one and some may take longer to
    adapt than others.

    FWIW, I had the same problem near 2 hr that you are with 4
    hr, so I found Dan's comments interesting (very similar to
    my perceptions). When the snow started melting, I was
    running both in warmer (for me) temperatures and more on
    dirt (vs snowshoe running, running on snow), and increasing
    percentage of running in the long run/walk. I found the
    perceived effort of 20-40F didn't work at 62F. I was really
    sore and tired after my first mostly-dirt run this spring
    (about 4 days recovery, but then I was fine and raring to go
    for the next one). Next time, listened to body, went easier
    effort, and walked more hills *early* and did much better -
    got farther, more elevation gain, and recovered *much*
    faster afterward. Yesterday's almost-2-hr run was much
    better although it was a lot flatter course, and the few
    hills were longer, but gentler
    - downhills that weren't scary :) And downhills don't
    hurt like they used to! (My usual course has a lot of
    small hills with 20-30% slopes with little flat =
    roller coaster.)

    I've been going largely by how my body feels and getting a
    feeling for recovery both within and between runs, rather
    than a formal schedule. I had a schedule made, but it just
    doesn't work with winter running in Alaska. The type run you
    can do is very different at 40F and no snow vs 0F and 2 ft
    of snow, so I just go with the flow and am making more
    progress than with formalities.

    >>I am not interested in doing much the rest of the day,
    >>though! Maybe some light puttering, but not wrestling with
    >>the lawn mower...

    I mowed my lawn the day before ;) I had intended to
    fertilize when I got home yesterday, but decided I preferred
    barefoot walking in the lawn :) I may eat/shower then
    catnap, then some light activity later in the day helps in
    recovery. This is why those 6:30-8:30 pm runs (same time as
    my race) were hard for me - no time to recover before bed.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
    Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  11. Westendgirl

    Westendgirl Guest

    > Cool -- it looks like a good club. While they're not
    > fiercely competitive,
    they
    > often place in smaller races, because their race
    > participation is very
    good
    > (search any race results for flyers and you'll see what I
    > mean). They seem
    to
    > be more about fostering the development of their members
    > than they are on winning club championships (though they
    > actually do place in the team
    awards
    > from time to time because of their strong participation)
    >
    That basically sums up why I joined this one. I'm not gonna
    name any names here, but I had heard that there were some
    other clubs that I should be askeered of. The whole reason
    why I prefer individual sports to team sports is-I know I
    have my good days and bad days and I don't want to feel
    like I've let the team down if I have a bad day. So no
    worries for me :)

    > I've actually been trying to get my fiancee to join them
    > for some time
    (she
    > runs the 4 mile at about 8:30 pace now).
    >
    I'm still very new, but so far, I'd totally recommend them
    to her. They're very good to the newbies. :)

    >
    > Get out there and kick his butt ;-) He's got the same
    > genetics as you, so
    he
    > can't have that much more talent. Male-female difference
    > is only about
    30-40
    > seconds per mile, so unless he's trained, he's probably
    > not even in the
    race.
    >
    The ironic thing is that during our jr high-high school
    years, he was the athlete in the family-not me. (He played
    soccer and ran track, though I can't for the life of me
    remember what his times were like-I did play softball for a
    bit in jr. high, but stopped afterwards-for the reasons
    mentioned above about team sports-it took me over 10 years
    to figure out why I wasn't enjoying it anymore, lol.) Then I
    guess after college and after entering the workforce, our
    roles were reversed. Go figure. But many thanks for the vote
    of confidence :) -Lara
    :)

    --
    "If God is a DJ...life is a dance floor... you get what
    you're given...it's all how you use it..."
     
  12. Tony

    Tony Guest

    Dot wrote in message ...
    >Tony wrote:
    >
    >> Dan Stumpus wrote in message ...
    >>
    >>
    >> My mpw has never been that high, and I'm trying to rely
    >> on alot of cross training, which should work for shorter
    >> ultras, but I'm not sure about a
    100
    >> miler. My running "base" is weak for a 4 hour run I
    >> suppose, but I've always trained this way - about 5 hours
    >> per week mixed running and
    walking,
    >> with a long run, bike or hike every 2 weeks or less. I
    >> realize I need
    more
    >> base, particularly running. I've heard of other ultra
    >> runners who don't
    do
    >> much between their weekly long runs, and I would prefer
    >> to keep it like
    that
    >> too - weigh heavily on the long effort instead of piling
    >> up the mpw. Hopefully this will work for me thru a 70
    >> mile attempt. Then i'll see...
    >
    >This is the general approach I've been taking also -
    >depending on the long run about every 2 wks for primary
    >training although it's more than 50% of mileage for the
    >week - although I'm just at the beginning stages of
    >building time relative to others. From things I've looked
    >at, the long run / total running percentage for a week
    >tends to be lower for high mileage folks (>70mpw) and it's
    >not at all unusual for ultra runners to have the long run
    >greater than 50% of their weekly total. But many people
    >train with a 2-3 wk microcycle rather than 1 wk, so weekly
    >totals may not be that relevant.

    Well for me last week I did about 5 hours running and
    cycling, another 90 mins walking, then my long run was 4
    hours, which is a high % of the weekly total I suppose. I
    think 4 hrs is probably a bit long for me at this point, but
    I feel great so far - this week will tell. In the past when
    I was hitting all cyclinders in summertime, my daily average
    went up alot, but then I found I didn't do the long efforts
    as much. I like to save myself some for the long bikes and
    runs and then recover early in the week with some quality
    stuff wed or thurs, with nothing over about 1:40 per day,
    less on average.

    >
    >Some of my observations: I haven't been doing any cross-
    >training this spring (usually mt bike, xc ski, snowshoe,
    >swim), and my last 3-4 long runs have been in the 1:4x to
    >1:5x range. Weekly total has been 3-3.5 hrs on the week
    >with the long run and 2-2.5 hrs the other weeks. A lot of
    >my training is driven by weather / trail conditions and
    >when my field work starts. This year I had one long run
    >completely on dirt (as opposed to snow or partial snow)
    >before my race that was cancelled (late May), and I had to
    >do that 3.5 wks out because of field work, etc, in May. I'd
    >been doing 1:30-1:45 on snowshoes (walk/ running) earlier.
    >1:45 on snowshoes is not the same as 1:45 running on dirt.
    >So there's a lot of just going by feel and see what works
    >and hopefully I don't crash too
    badly.

    I too like to get out there, and I've burned myself out some
    years by failing to rest enough in the summer, and then when
    mid Fall comes I'm through.

    >
    >I'm guessing that some people may do better by increasing
    >the other runs, and thus decreasing recovery, as percentage
    >of week (more in line with published training schedules)
    >while others will be inviting injury.
    >
    >My personal idiosyncrasy is that I like to be outside
    >running, hiking, biking, snowshoeing, xc skiing, or
    >whatever. When I was following the traditional 10% rule, I
    >never felt that I was making any gains toward being able to
    >go running for a few hours on the weekend. I felt caged,
    >and would tend to revert to my other activities since I
    >could just go do it for however long I wanted.
    >
    >However, once Doug suggested just go run / walk / snowshoe
    >whatever for
    >1.5-2 hr or whatever (anticipating race to take about 2
    > hr), I got past that 1-1:15 hump I'd been on for the last
    > year or so. Granted some of that was related to xt class
    > on weekends, hence long runs in winter were after work in
    > the dark, as well as achilles issues. I do much better
    > with my long runs on a weekend day.
    >
    >It's only on the long runs that one really trains for the
    >distance. In Kevin Setnes chapter in A Step Beyond, he
    >notes that the long run trains the mind, nervous system,
    >muscle fiber, connective tissue, and the endocrine system.
    >Some of these can be trained on shorter runs, but it's not
    >obvious how to train the endocrine system except by going
    >long - for at least 3 hrs. The endocrine training is
    >really an experiment of one and some may take longer to
    >adapt than others.

    Endocrine system - lol for me 6-8 weeks after a 50 miler.
    A certain undefinable core tiredness would show up in my
    long efforts.
    >
    >
    >FWIW, I had the same problem near 2 hr that you are with 4
    >hr, so I found Dan's comments interesting (very similar to
    >my perceptions). When the snow started melting, I was
    >running both in warmer (for me) temperatures and more on
    >dirt (vs snowshoe running, running on snow), and increasing
    >percentage of running in the long run/walk. I found the
    >perceived effort of 20-40F didn't work at 62F. I was really
    >sore and tired after my first mostly-dirt run this spring
    >(about 4 days recovery, but then I was fine and raring to
    >go for the next one). Next time, listened to body, went
    >easier effort, and walked more hills *early* and did much
    >better - got farther, more elevation gain, and recovered
    >*much* faster afterward. Yesterday's almost-2-hr run was
    >much better although it was a lot flatter course, and the
    >few hills were longer, but gentler
    >- downhills that weren't scary :) And downhills don't hurt
    > like they used to! (My usual course has a lot of small
    > hills with 20-30% slopes with little flat = roller
    > coaster.)

    Yes, I'm learning slowly. This time I tried to slow down a
    great deal, and it certainly helped. I used to way overdo it
    on long runs and then often ended up not doing much until
    thursday. Next time I'll either slow down a bit more, or
    decrese the distance some. Downhills don't hurt me at all at
    this point, even at close to 4 hours - I just love to run
    the downhills. The crosstraining on the bike helps alot with
    the leg strength for both downhills and uphills.
    >
    >I've been going largely by how my body feels and getting a
    >feeling for recovery both within and between runs, rather
    >than a formal schedule. I had a schedule made, but it just
    >doesn't work with winter running in Alaska. The type run
    >you can do is very different at 40F and no snow vs 0F and 2
    >ft of snow, so I just go with the flow and am making more
    >progress than with formalities.
    >

    I also have largely eschewed a formal schedule in the past
    few months, though lately I've been doing the run/bike/walk
    thing over and over regardless of what falls on the weekend.
    The extra rest on walk/rest days seems to be a wonder. I may
    modify this to accomodate a long bike every 2nd weekend and
    the long run on the other weekends.

    >
    >>>I am not interested in doing much the rest of the day,
    >>>though! Maybe
    some
    >>>light puttering, but not wrestling with the lawn mower...
    >
    >I mowed my lawn the day before ;) I had intended to
    >fertilize when I got home yesterday, but decided I
    >preferred barefoot walking in the lawn :) I may eat/shower
    >then catnap, then some light activity later in the day
    >helps in recovery. This is why those 6:30-8:30 pm runs
    >(same time as my race) were hard for me - no time to
    >recover before bed.
    >
    >Dot
    >
    >--
    >"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
    >Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

    Hey I read that book too...
     
  13. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "Tony" <[email protected](remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:j%[email protected]...
    > I wish we had a 5 mile hill nearby. The closest thing
    > to that is
    the 2600'
    > climb up peekamoose Mt in the catskills in about 3.4
    > miles, but
    all on
    > technical trails. Maybe there are more gradual roads
    > around here
    I don't
    > know about yet...

    If you Know Peekamouse then you can't live too far from me.
    Where are you? I've run that trail and dozens of others and
    back in the days I did road marathons I used to use the big
    downhill section of Peekamoose Road into Sundown to beat my
    quads up for Boston.

    Anyway, My hill is in Woodstock aka Overlook mountain. If
    you start in the village the first 2 1/2 is road but you can
    run the shoulder to avoid the macadam and the second half is
    the 2 1/2 to the fire tower which is dirt road. If the
    entire 5 sounds like too much then I suggest you park at the
    trail head and do laps to the fire tower. While the lap
    concept may sound boring it lends itself nicely to not
    having to strap a 55 gal drum on your back to stay hydrated.

    I also mountain bike up the same hill for cross training .
    It's a mother of a pull on a bike.

    If you're ever interested let me know(Email) and I'll try to
    hook up and give you a guided tour. A couple of ultra guys
    from Long Island drive up to run this hill for their prep
    work. I can assure you this hill will get you in shape for
    just about any race. By the way, the entire 5 is smooth road
    so if your race(s) has rooks and roots you need to get that
    on some other trails.

    -Doug Freese
     
  14. Tony

    Tony Guest

    Doug Freese wrote in message ...
    >
    >"Tony" <[email protected](remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >news:j%[email protected]...
    >> I wish we had a 5 mile hill nearby. The closest thing to
    >> that is
    >the 2600'
    >> climb up peekamoose Mt in the catskills in about 3.4
    >> miles, but
    >all on
    >> technical trails. Maybe there are more gradual roads
    >> around here
    >I don't
    >> know about yet...
    >
    >If you Know Peekamouse then you can't live too far from me.
    >Where are you?

    I'm in Nyack by the TZ bridge. I run the long path around
    here and go to harriman park alot, and catskills aren't too
    far either...

    >I've run that trail and dozens of others and back in the
    >days I did road marathons I used to use the big downhill
    >section of Peekamoose Road into Sundown to beat my quads up
    >for Boston.
    >
    >Anyway, My hill is in Woodstock aka Overlook mountain. If
    >you start in the village the first 2 1/2 is road but you
    >can run the shoulder to avoid the macadam and the second
    >half is the 2 1/2 to the fire tower which is dirt road. If
    >the entire 5 sounds like too much then I suggest you park
    >at the trail head and do laps to the fire tower. While the
    >lap concept may sound boring it lends itself nicely to not
    >having to strap a 55 gal drum on your back to stay
    >hydrated.
    >
    >I also mountain bike up the same hill for cross training .
    >It's a mother of a pull on a bike.

    Yea I know where that is though I've never done it. Ok I'm
    looking at it on my catskill mapset right now. Looks like
    you're talking about meads mt road then onto the trail -
    about 2500' vert looks like - Nice! My cousin cycles up
    meads sometimes though I've never been there. Yes that looks
    like it will do the trick for ultra training. Laps are good
    for hydration reasons, I agree. I hate wearing a camelback;
    I just carry hand bottles and refill them. You're mad to
    pull that hill on a bike, but I'd like to try that too once
    I get a new mt bike.

    >
    >If you're ever interested let me know(Email) and I'll try
    >to hook up and give you a guided tour. A couple of ultra
    >guys from Long Island drive up to run this hill for their
    >prep work. I can assure you this hill will get you in shape
    >for just about any race. By the way, the entire 5 is smooth
    >road so if your race(s) has rooks and roots you need to get
    >that on some other trails.
    >
    >-Doug Freese

    Thanks bro, once I've put in a few more long ones around
    here I'll be up for
    it.

    - Tony
    >
     
  15. Tony

    Tony Guest

    btw Doug, you said you did 2-4 "laps" on that 5 mile hill?
    Thats 20 - 40 miles right? lol What are you training for the
    badwater 135?
     
  16. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    Hark! I heard Red Dot <[email protected]> say in
    news:[email protected]:

    >
    >>
    >>Goals:
    >>
    >> 5/31/04 - Celebrate America 10K. My first race in over 4
    >> years. Goal <43:00, 68% WAVA
    >
    >
    > How did you do? I came in 15th- 41:38. Now I'm waiting for
    > the Peachtree RR.

    They were supposed to post the results on active.com within
    a week. It has been 3 weeks now and no results. I sent the
    organizers an email Friday. They replied today with a pdf
    file with the results. It looks like they only sent it to
    those that inquired. If you like, I can send it to you. Just
    send an email to [email protected] Assuming you were the
    15th place finisher, you got a 41:31, 4th age group. They
    were planning for 900+ runners, but due to the
    thunderstorms, only 479 runners showed up (5K and 10K
    combined). My guess is that imclement weather won't stop the
    better runners. Well, that's my excuse for not getting a
    higher place. ;-)

    Phil M.

    --
    "Do, or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
     
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