"transport poverty"

Theo Bekkers said:

Friday said:

Also, in the "old days" there used to be small towns located about
every 20km between the larger towns. This was about the distance a
horse could go before requiring food and water. I predict a
resurgence in these towns as commuters on their bikes pull over for a
power bar and coffee.

The 20 km town spacing came about because it is the maximum distance you can
go to town and get home again on the same day with a horse and cart. Not for
feed for the horse. You can carry that on the cart.

Theo

What if you're on a horse without a cart?

Plodder said:

After many years in Aus I still can't get used to not being able to walk
down the road a little to grab a coffee or nip to the local corner shop. I
detest the centralisation of business (in the CBD) and shopping (in
shopping centres). Contrast that to small shops mixed in with living
places; there is little or no street life in most Aus cities.

There used to be thousands of little corner shops, 'milk bars' 20 years
ago. Many times I was sent off on my pushie to go get <X> from the shop.

The rise of the all-encompassing supermarket destroyed them, and is
continuing to do so. Huge shopping centres more-so. Every time you visit
a remote shopping complex over your local skopkeepers it's helping this
decline. Sure you might save half an hour, but spend that in petrol,
stress and local-decline.

I lament the loss of good shopping, now it's a sterilised homogenised
experience. Uber-market Tuggerah has exactly the same stores as
Uber-market Erina, Paramatta, and Bourke. No more variety, nor adventure.

Hmmm, I think I need to go for a ride.

-kt

--
Kingsley Turner,
http://MadDogsBreakfast.com/ABFAQ - news:aus.bicycle Frequenly Asked Questions

Zebee Johnstone said:

Zebee
- who will keep the people who make doof doof gear for cars to
torture for pleasure.

I kind of think of this as a "[censored] alert" warning.
In case you don't see them coming, you can hear it.

-kt

--
Kingsley Turner,
http://MadDogsBreakfast.com/ABFAQ - news:aus.bicycle Frequenly Asked Questions

Dorfus Dippintush said:

Theo Bekkers wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 20 km town spacing came about because it is the maximum distance
you can go to town and get home again on the same day with a horse
and cart. Not for feed for the horse. You can carry that on the cart.

Quoted message said:

What if you're on a horse without a cart?

Then you're either a gentleman, a policeman, or a bushranger. Horses were
way too expensive to own to have one just to ride around.

Theo

Duncan said:

People quit => employers can't hire => pay goes up => people hired on
more $$. Problem solved.

Fallacy one; many people can not afford to quit.

Quoted message said:

or.. gee whiz.. maybe people need to move to where there is housing +
work (ie: out of the cities).

Found any hen's teeth lately.
Oh look, there goes Santa claus across the sky.

Quoted message said:

Its called market forces.

Yawn, that is the trouble with economic theory, it has no place in the
real world. The problem is that there is an oversupply of people and
that leads to poverty. Made exceedingly worse by the massive increase in
production and distribution that is modern manufacturing and transport.

I guess we know who your god is.

Terryc said:

Duncan said:

People quit => employers can't hire => pay goes up => people hired on
more $$. Problem solved.

Fallacy one; many people can not afford to quit.

Quoted message said:

or.. gee whiz.. maybe people need to move to where there is housing +
work (ie: out of the cities).

Found any hen's teeth lately.
Oh look, there goes Santa claus across the sky.

Quoted message said:

Its called market forces.

Yawn, that is the trouble with economic theory, it has no place in the
real world. The problem is that there is an oversupply of people and
that leads to poverty. Made exceedingly worse by the massive increase in
production and distribution that is modern manufacturing and transport.

I guess that explains the low unemployment rates at the moment.

Quoted message said:

I guess we know who your god is.

Compared with what? That wonderful system that gave half the world
population uniform poverty and killed tens of millions... puleese

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:22:24 -0700

Duncan said:

Terryc said:

Yawn, that is the trouble with economic theory, it has no place in the
real world. The problem is that there is an oversupply of people and
that leads to poverty. Made exceedingly worse by the massive increase in
production and distribution that is modern manufacturing and transport.

I guess that explains the low unemployment rates at the moment.

You want to hire labour. You refuse to hire anyone who lives more than
20km from your place of business. have fun.

Zebee

Brendo said:

Either way, these small towns had a bank, a butcher, a baker, a
grocer, a school etc etc. And when you went to each of them, they said
Hi [insert name here]. I used to think my parents were nuts when they
complained about everything moving into large regional cities. 'But
you can do everything in the one centre now. You don't have to visit
five different stores to get your weeks shopping Etc Etc'. But they
were right to complain (I'm finding that the older I get the more
right about stuff my parents were). We live now were the neighbour
over the fence works, shops, educates their children, enjoys
recreational time etc in possible 5 or 6 different locations, and they
are all different to the places where I would do those things.

[Sigh] The good old days....

Certainly, but don't blame the supermarkets for the loss of your corner
shop. It is the consumer going to the supermarket that closes the corner
shop.

Theo

Quoted message said:

Certainly, but don't blame the supermarkets for the loss of your corner
shop. It is the consumer going to the supermarket that closes the corner
shop.

Theo

I totally agree. A supermarket is only responsible to the people who
own it, and it's sole function is to make $$, and as much as it can. I
often argue with people over banks. Why do they charge so much??
Because their job is to make as much money as they can for their
owners. There's nothing wrong with that.

But I also have trouble blaming a consumer for trying to save $$. You
can't enjoy both sides of capitalism!!

It appears that property developers are at least trying to grow some
sort of 'village' feel. Although I think that is only a front for
making more money as well!!

Brendo

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:22:24 -0700

Duncan said:

Terryc said:

Yawn, that is the trouble with economic theory, it has no place in the
real world. The problem is that there is an oversupply of people and
that leads to poverty. Made exceedingly worse by the massive increase in
production and distribution that is modern manufacturing and transport.

Quoted message said:

I guess that explains the low unemployment rates at the moment.

You want to hire labour. You refuse to hire anyone who lives more than
20km from your place of business. have fun.

Zebee

You can choose not to facilitate it, don't subsidise car parking, find
an office near a train station, provide adequate cycle facilities.
Don't offer 'work' vehicles or salary sacrifices that incentivise
people to drive long distances and disconnect them from the costs of
that driving.

In melbourne 20km would narrow it down to a couple of million people,
should be fine.

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:44:56 -0700

PiledHigher said:

In melbourne 20km would narrow it down to a couple of million people,
should be fine.

Heh. I put out an ad for a sysadmin. 20km from North Sydney is a few
million too. The only one who applied who was worth it lives in
Castle Hill which is a lot further than 20km.

Sure, that's a high skill job. On the other hand, getting cleaners
who live 20km from the CBD isn't easy either.

Chicken and egg really. The cheap housing is far away, how to make
the housing that's close to the nice places to live cheaper?

MInd you, I'd rather hear what people who don't earn much say. The
only one I talk to on a regular basis can't do without his car because
there's neither cheap housing nor public transport in the factory
district he works in, and no transport where he lives that goes there.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:44:56 -0700

PiledHigher said:

In melbourne 20km would narrow it down to a couple of million people,
should be fine.

Heh. I put out an ad for a sysadmin. 20km from North Sydney is a few
million too. The only one who applied who was worth it lives in
Castle Hill which is a lot further than 20km.

Sure, that's a high skill job. On the other hand, getting cleaners
who live 20km from the CBD isn't easy either.

Chicken and egg really. The cheap housing is far away, how to make
the housing that's close to the nice places to live cheaper?

MInd you, I'd rather hear what people who don't earn much say. The
only one I talk to on a regular basis can't do without his car because
there's neither cheap housing nor public transport in the factory
district he works in, and no transport where he lives that goes there.

An interesting question to ask is how much does his transport cost
him, and how much would he get on the dole, and subtract the transport
cost from his income, and compare the two. It's an interesting
exercise, sometimes.

Bleve said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:44:56 -0700

Quoted message said:

PiledHigher <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In melbourne 20km would narrow it down to a couple of million people,
should be fine.

Quoted message said:

Heh. I put out an ad for a sysadmin. 20km from North Sydney is a few
million too. The only one who applied who was worth it lives in
Castle Hill which is a lot further than 20km.

Quoted message said:

Sure, that's a high skill job. On the other hand, getting cleaners
who live 20km from the CBD isn't easy either.

Quoted message said:

Chicken and egg really. The cheap housing is far away, how to make
the housing that's close to the nice places to live cheaper?

Quoted message said:

MInd you, I'd rather hear what people who don't earn much say. The
only one I talk to on a regular basis can't do without his car because
there's neither cheap housing nor public transport in the factory
district he works in, and no transport where he lives that goes there.

An interesting question to ask is how much does his transport cost
him, and how much would he get on the dole, and subtract the transport
cost from his income, and compare the two. It's an interesting
exercise, sometimes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Especially when NRMA recently said that it costs ballpark $250 a week
to run a large family car (when all is taken into account) Sure you
can lessen this by doing away with unnecessary things like insurance,
replacing tyres after they spark (rather than when the tread indicator
shows up) and using a siphon hose rather than the bowser.

But still, they aren't cheap.

Brendo

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:41:49 -0700

Brendo said:

Especially when NRMA recently said that it costs ballpark $250 a week
to run a large family car (when all is taken into account) Sure you
can lessen this by doing away with unnecessary things like insurance,
replacing tyres after they spark (rather than when the tread indicator
shows up) and using a siphon hose rather than the bowser.

The vast majority of that is depreciation. His car depreciated to
three fifths of bugger all years ago.

Zebee

Duncan said:

On Jun 28, 2:05 pm, Terryc <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Its called market forces.

Yawn, that is the trouble with economic theory, it has no place in the
real world. The problem is that there is an oversupply of people and
that leads to poverty. Made exceedingly worse by the massive increase in
production and distribution that is modern manufacturing and transport.

I guess that explains the low unemployment rates at the moment.

1. When you change the goal posts,the figures don't compare.

Working for 1 hour per week is not living above poverty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess we know who your god is.

Compared with what? That wonderful system that gave half the world
population uniform poverty and killed tens of millions... puleese

Are you talking about how the Russians won WWII?

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:22:24 -0700
You want to hire labour. You refuse to hire anyone who lives more than
20km from your place of business. have fun.

Any employer that does this is an idiot. .. and with such rules, you'd
want to be convinced they didn't have other nonsensical rules that are
going to pop up on you after you've started working there.

Especially for a sysadm...

BT Humble said:

Higher density, mixed-use zoning, walking distance to public
transport. They call it "new urbanism" now, but it's a formula that
would have been familiar to any pre-WW2 urban Australian.

Well that's one take on the issue, while you're perusing the local bookshop, have look for Graeme Davisons 'Car Wars'. It's fairly Melbourne centric but discusses at length similar social and planning processes that most Aus urban centres have been influenced by since WWII.

Duncan said:

Any employer that does this is an idiot. .. and with such rules, you'd
want to be convinced they didn't have other nonsensical rules that are
going to pop up on you after you've started working there.

Especially for a sysadm...

BTDT. Their excuse is you need someone who can give a timely response.
And the chances of it happening are infinitesimal anyway.

Doesn't seem to matter that I could watch their complete network from
home anyway.

PiledHigher said:

offer 'work' vehicles or salary sacrifices that incentivise people to
drive long distances and disconnect them from the costs of that driving.

Anyone ever salary sacrificed a bike for riding to work?
Is it possible?

-kt

--
Kingsley Turner,
http://MadDogsBreakfast.com/ABFAQ - news:aus.bicycle Frequenly Asked Questions

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

PiledHigher said:

offer 'work' vehicles or salary sacrifices that incentivise people to
drive long distances and disconnect them from the costs of that driving.

Anyone ever salary sacrificed a bike for riding to work?
Is it possible?

-kt

It's all about minimising tax via fringe benefits taxation rulings.

The sad part is people are encouraged to drive cars 25,000+km to achieve
a better FBT rate each year. If you don't, the benefit diminishes.

The best approach is probably to salary sacrifice a car and put the tax
savings towards a bicycle.
Tax savings on the car probably equate to the cost of the bike!

Sad but true.

Ray