treating the inside of a steel frame?

Hi!

I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
be best to use for this purpose?

Greets, Derk

 

>If so, does anyone know what substance

JP Weigle Frame Saver. for sale several places such as the link below:

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:_gdOjNyGf0EC:www.branfordbike.com/bik
ecare/bcare1.html+%22frame+saver%22+bicycle&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

"Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
> be best to use for this purpose?

Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial product just for this
purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled
through the tubes. We have it as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.

I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes. My
own 1953 steel frame looks pretty good inside. But it doesn't hurt anything and Peter Wiegle could
use the money.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store or
hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines
that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple months. Unscrew
the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....

It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you are
so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.

Rob

A Muzi wrote:
> "Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
>
>>I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
>>something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
>>be best to use for this purpose?
>
>
> Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial product just for this
> purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled
> through the tubes. We have it as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
>
> I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes. My
> own 1953 steel frame looks pretty good inside. But it doesn't hurt anything and Peter Wiegle could
> use the money.
> --
> Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:50:29 +0100 Derk Drukker
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
>something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
>be best to use for this purpose?

I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more common.)

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

In article <[email protected]>, R Cohen <[email protected]> wrote:

> Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store or
> hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines
> that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple months. Unscrew
> the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
>
> It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you
> are so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.

Only if it's highly atomized and comes out as a vapor rather than as a barely vaporized liquid
stream- as in the case of Frame Saver or Boeshield T-9. Both of these rely on being thin liquids
that flow easily, with the intention of swirling them around to coat the surface.

The problem with rustproofing the insides of a bicycle frame can be shown with a frying pan. Put a
tablespoon of oil in a frying pan and try to coat the entire bottom of the pan evenly. It takes a
lot of swiching and swirling to coat the pan- and you can *see* where the oil needs to go. Inside a
frame it takes just as much swishing and swirling, but the shapes of the surfaces are enormously
complex compared to the plane of a frying pan- and you can't see where the substance needs to go.

Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all likelihood a complete waste of time.
Dipping the frame in a rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only realistic
way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.

 

Jim Adney writes:

>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
>> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
>> would be best to use for this purpose?
>
> I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more common.)

Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few years
back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water intrusion.

 

R Cohen <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store or
> hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines
> that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple months. Unscrew
> the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
>
> It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you
> are so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
>
> Rob
>
Frame Saver is VERY different from fogging oil! Frame Saver, when all the solvents are
evaporated, leaves a thick viscous coating. It's almost like a grease, but much more dense. It is
very thin when it's sprayed out of the can. That allows it to get everywhere, and in small areas
and hidden corners.

 

> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
> be best to use for this purpose?

What about chain/seatstays and top tube? How do you treat those?

BTW, it'll attract dust and grit, too.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

What about using Ospho or Oakite to treat the frames? We used those product with very high success
in treating SCUBA tanks years ago. They are basically phosphoric acid and something else that forms
iron phosphate which acts as a rustproofing and primer. Or. at least that is how I understand it. I
think Naval Jelly has similar ingredients.

Bruce

"Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> R Cohen <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store
> > or hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion
> > engines that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple
> > months. Unscrew the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
> >
> > It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you
> > are so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> Frame Saver is VERY different from fogging oil! Frame Saver, when all the solvents are evaporated,
> leaves a thick viscous coating. It's almost like a grease, but much more dense. It is very thin
> when it's sprayed out of the can. That allows it to get everywhere, and in small areas and hidden
> corners.

 

Here is a link to the Ospho site

http://www.ospho.com/directions.htm

The stuff is a liquid, thin as water. It could easily be injected into the weep holes in a chainstay
with a hypodermic or put onto a swab to coat the inside of larger frame tubes.

Take a look, see if this stuff may make sense to you guys...

Bruce

"Richard Ney" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Jim Adney writes:
>
> >> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> >> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
> >> would be best to use for this purpose?
> >
> > I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more common.)
>
> Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few
> years back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water
> intrusion.

 

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:40:01 -0600 "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial product just for this
>purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled
>through the tubes. We have it as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
>
>I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes.

Remember Greg Meeker's Pink custom frame (I can't remember the maker....) It had pinholes thru the
top tube, right behind the head lug. Pretty strange, they weren't even on the bottom side of the
tube, more to the upper left, about 10 O'clock.

I've never seen another case.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:19:49 -0500 "Richard Ney" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few
>years back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water
>intrusion.

I think you really have to be careful with this approach. If you try to seal out moisture you really
have to make a perfect seal or you will end up sealing water in.

Changes in barometric pressure carry air in and out every day, and water vapor comes with it. If the
temp drops you will get dew condensing inside and that will be hard to get rid of. It doesn't take a
pourable amount of water to cause corrosion. An almost invisible dusting of dew is MORE than enough
to do damage.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:40:01 -0600 "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a
commercial
> >product just for this purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates
> >after being aerosoled through the tubes. We have
it
> >as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
> >
> >I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes.

"Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Remember Greg Meeker's Pink custom frame (I can't remember the maker....) It had pinholes thru the
> top tube, right behind the head lug. Pretty strange, they weren't even on the bottom side of the
> tube, more to the upper left, about 10 O'clock.
>
> I've never seen another case.

I think we decided that was from months of training on rollers with sweat on the _outside_. I
found a metric top tube, replaced it and had the Urago painted (pink again!) for his birthday a
few years ago.

And there was Leila Shakkour's Mercier whose seatstays collapsed one day. They had been filled with
acid from a hack chrome plating job. I'd consider that another anomaly and unrelated to the subject
at hand. Makes a good story but we don't want to set a rule by anecdote!

There just are not big numbers of bikes failing from internal rust, even bikes ridden daily in salt
water without benefit of LPS-3 or Wiegle's oil.

I'm not opposed to sloshing oil inside frames, I just don't thing anyone should panic if they
haven't done it.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:19:49 -0500 "Richard Ney" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few
> >years back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water
> >intrusion.

"Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I think you really have to be careful with this approach. If you try to seal out moisture you
> really have to make a perfect seal or you will end up sealing water in.
>
> Changes in barometric pressure carry air in and out every day, and water vapor comes with it. If
> the temp drops you will get dew condensing inside and that will be hard to get rid of. It doesn't
> take a pourable amount of water to cause corrosion. An almost invisible dusting of dew is MORE
> than enough to do damage.

I heartily agree. Attempting to "seal" a bike frame will keep water in more likley than out.
Drainholes are good!

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... ...
> Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all likelihood a complete waste of
> time. Dipping the frame in a rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
> realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.

This was done on old black Nottingham Raleighs, where the entire frame was dipped in paint. Plus,
the frame dimensions on an old Raleigh Sports are probably better suited to the riding people most
people do than the modern steep angle short stays that have dominated the road bike market, or
suspension forked mountain bikes that are never ridden off pavement.

Bill Putnam, who is not worried about his B line Raleigh rusting out from the inside.

 

Tim McNamara asserted:

>>Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all likelihood a complete waste of
>>time. Dipping the frame in a rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
>>realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.

If you're just talking about spraying, you're probably right. Weigel's Frame Saver, if you follow
the directions, is a different matter. The procedure is fairly complicated and messy, involving
plugging tubes temporarily with rags and tipping the frame back and forth various ways to
distribute the goo.

I believe it is effective when done properly, but even in snowy/salty New England I very, very
rarely see a bicycle with serious rust damage to the frame.

Bill Putnam wrote:

> This was done on old black Nottingham Raleighs, where the entire frame was dipped in paint. Plus,
> the frame dimensions on an old Raleigh Sports are probably better suited to the riding people
> most people do than the modern steep angle short stays that have dominated the road bike market,
> or suspension forked mountain bikes that are never ridden off pavement.

72/72, it doesn't get any better than that!

Sheldon "Nottingham Knew" Brown +----------------------------------------------+
| Certainly the game is rigged. | Don't let that stop you; | if you don't bet, you can't win. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+----------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

Derk Drukker writes:

> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
> be best to use for this purpose?

Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration brought on
by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the tube
that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.

If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there won't
be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone rode
steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more. Frame
saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the
1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Derk Drukker writes:
>
> > I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> > something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
> > would be best to use for this purpose?
>
> Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration brought
> on by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the
> tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.
>
> If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there
> won't be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone
> rode steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more.
> Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames
> since the 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the
Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the
surface of your car the day after you've washed it?

In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of messengering in Portland, Oregon, I
didn't worry and as you say I did not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New Hampshire -
that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in my frames might or might not help, but I am
willing to spend a couple of bucks to try, and I'm not about to order a second custom road frame to
ride on alternate days as an untreated control.

This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime setting knows about salt water
and corrosion of steel. What I *don't* know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope is that the
Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of the frame - but it's only a couple
of bucks and I'll probably never know whether it helped or not.

-Alex Merz

 

In article <[email protected]>, Alexey Merz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the
>Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the
>surface of your car the day after you've washed it?

I have ridden and worked bike shops in Michigan where the roads are heavily salted. In winter along
the side of the road you see handlebars sticking out of salty snow banks where the plows toss salt
slush. Those bikes are fully immersed, covered in salt water inside and out for several months.

I have never once seen a bike there with the frame rusted through except a few bikes on indoor
trainers. It probably has happened in recorded history but I tuned up those bikes dug out of the
snow, plenty hundreds of them, didn't find frame corrosion to be a problem. Chains, freewheels,
bottom brackets, and derailleurs do tend to get ruined real quick, and wheels built without
stainless spokes are a total loss. Stems and seatposts stuck in the frame, definitely, but no tubing
failures that I can recall, I think I would remember.

--Paul