treating the inside of a steel frame?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Derk Drukker, Mar 14, 2003.

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  1. Derk Drukker

    Derk Drukker Guest

    Hi!

    I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
    be best to use for this purpose?

    Greets, Derk
     
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  2. Maxfield D

    Maxfield D Guest

  3. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    > something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
    > be best to use for this purpose?

    Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial product just for this
    purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled
    through the tubes. We have it as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.

    I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes. My
    own 1953 steel frame looks pretty good inside. But it doesn't hurt anything and Peter Wiegle could
    use the money.
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  4. R Cohen

    R Cohen Guest

    Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store or
    hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines
    that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple months. Unscrew
    the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....

    It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you are
    so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.

    Rob

    A Muzi wrote:
    > "Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]...
    >
    >>I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    >>something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
    >>be best to use for this purpose?
    >
    >
    > Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial product just for this
    > purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled
    > through the tubes. We have it as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
    >
    > I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes. My
    > own 1953 steel frame looks pretty good inside. But it doesn't hurt anything and Peter Wiegle could
    > use the money.
    > --
    > Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  5. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:50:29 +0100 Derk Drukker
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    >something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
    >be best to use for this purpose?

    I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more common.)

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  6. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, R Cohen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store or
    > hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines
    > that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple months. Unscrew
    > the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
    >
    > It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you
    > are so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.

    Only if it's highly atomized and comes out as a vapor rather than as a barely vaporized liquid
    stream- as in the case of Frame Saver or Boeshield T-9. Both of these rely on being thin liquids
    that flow easily, with the intention of swirling them around to coat the surface.

    The problem with rustproofing the insides of a bicycle frame can be shown with a frying pan. Put a
    tablespoon of oil in a frying pan and try to coat the entire bottom of the pan evenly. It takes a
    lot of swiching and swirling to coat the pan- and you can *see* where the oil needs to go. Inside a
    frame it takes just as much swishing and swirling, but the shapes of the surfaces are enormously
    complex compared to the plane of a frying pan- and you can't see where the substance needs to go.

    Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all likelihood a complete waste of time.
    Dipping the frame in a rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only realistic
    way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.
     
  7. Richard Ney

    Richard Ney Guest

    Jim Adney writes:

    >> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    >> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
    >> would be best to use for this purpose?
    >
    > I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more common.)

    Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few years
    back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water intrusion.
     
  8. R Cohen <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store or
    > hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines
    > that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple months. Unscrew
    > the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
    >
    > It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you
    > are so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
    >
    > Rob
    >
    Frame Saver is VERY different from fogging oil! Frame Saver, when all the solvents are
    evaporated, leaves a thick viscous coating. It's almost like a grease, but much more dense. It is
    very thin when it's sprayed out of the can. That allows it to get everywhere, and in small areas
    and hidden corners.
     
  9. > I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    > something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
    > be best to use for this purpose?

    What about chain/seatstays and top tube? How do you treat those?

    BTW, it'll attract dust and grit, too.

    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  10. What about using Ospho or Oakite to treat the frames? We used those product with very high success
    in treating SCUBA tanks years ago. They are basically phosphoric acid and something else that forms
    iron phosphate which acts as a rustproofing and primer. Or. at least that is how I understand it. I
    think Naval Jelly has similar ingredients.

    Bruce

    "Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > R Cohen <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available at any auto parts store
    > > or hardware store and is used to prevent corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion
    > > engines that are being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a couple
    > > months. Unscrew the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
    > >
    > > It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the inside of frame tubes, if you
    > > are so inclined. It is probably less costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
    > >
    > > Rob
    > >
    > Frame Saver is VERY different from fogging oil! Frame Saver, when all the solvents are evaporated,
    > leaves a thick viscous coating. It's almost like a grease, but much more dense. It is very thin
    > when it's sprayed out of the can. That allows it to get everywhere, and in small areas and hidden
    > corners.
     
  11. Here is a link to the Ospho site

    http://www.ospho.com/directions.htm

    The stuff is a liquid, thin as water. It could easily be injected into the weep holes in a chainstay
    with a hypodermic or put onto a swab to coat the inside of larger frame tubes.

    Take a look, see if this stuff may make sense to you guys...

    Bruce

    "Richard Ney" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Jim Adney writes:
    >
    > >> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    > >> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
    > >> would be best to use for this purpose?
    > >
    > > I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more common.)
    >
    > Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few
    > years back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water
    > intrusion.
     
  12. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:40:01 -0600 "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial product just for this
    >purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled
    >through the tubes. We have it as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
    >
    >I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes.

    Remember Greg Meeker's Pink custom frame (I can't remember the maker....) It had pinholes thru the
    top tube, right behind the head lug. Pretty strange, they weren't even on the bottom side of the
    tube, more to the upper left, about 10 O'clock.

    I've never seen another case.

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  13. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:19:49 -0500 "Richard Ney" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few
    >years back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water
    >intrusion.

    I think you really have to be careful with this approach. If you try to seal out moisture you really
    have to make a perfect seal or you will end up sealing water in.

    Changes in barometric pressure carry air in and out every day, and water vapor comes with it. If the
    temp drops you will get dew condensing inside and that will be hard to get rid of. It doesn't take a
    pourable amount of water to cause corrosion. An almost invisible dusting of dew is MORE than enough
    to do damage.

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  14. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:40:01 -0600 "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a
    commercial
    > >product just for this purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a carrier that evaporates
    > >after being aerosoled through the tubes. We have
    it
    > >as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
    > >
    > >I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise from rust inside tubes.

    "Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Remember Greg Meeker's Pink custom frame (I can't remember the maker....) It had pinholes thru the
    > top tube, right behind the head lug. Pretty strange, they weren't even on the bottom side of the
    > tube, more to the upper left, about 10 O'clock.
    >
    > I've never seen another case.

    I think we decided that was from months of training on rollers with sweat on the _outside_. I
    found a metric top tube, replaced it and had the Urago painted (pink again!) for his birthday a
    few years ago.

    And there was Leila Shakkour's Mercier whose seatstays collapsed one day. They had been filled with
    acid from a hack chrome plating job. I'd consider that another anomaly and unrelated to the subject
    at hand. Makes a good story but we don't want to set a rule by anecdote!

    There just are not big numbers of bikes failing from internal rust, even bikes ridden daily in salt
    water without benefit of LPS-3 or Wiegle's oil.

    I'm not opposed to sloshing oil inside frames, I just don't thing anyone should panic if they
    haven't done it.

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  15. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:19:49 -0500 "Richard Ney" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost greased. I did this a few
    > >years back, after Jobst shot-down the efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water
    > >intrusion.

    "Jim Adney" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I think you really have to be careful with this approach. If you try to seal out moisture you
    > really have to make a perfect seal or you will end up sealing water in.
    >
    > Changes in barometric pressure carry air in and out every day, and water vapor comes with it. If
    > the temp drops you will get dew condensing inside and that will be hard to get rid of. It doesn't
    > take a pourable amount of water to cause corrosion. An almost invisible dusting of dew is MORE
    > than enough to do damage.

    I heartily agree. Attempting to "seal" a bike frame will keep water in more likley than out.
    Drainholes are good!

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  16. Bill Putnam

    Bill Putnam Guest

    Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>... ...
    > Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all likelihood a complete waste of
    > time. Dipping the frame in a rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
    > realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.

    This was done on old black Nottingham Raleighs, where the entire frame was dipped in paint. Plus,
    the frame dimensions on an old Raleigh Sports are probably better suited to the riding people most
    people do than the modern steep angle short stays that have dominated the road bike market, or
    suspension forked mountain bikes that are never ridden off pavement.

    Bill Putnam, who is not worried about his B line Raleigh rusting out from the inside.
     
  17. Tim McNamara asserted:

    >>Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all likelihood a complete waste of
    >>time. Dipping the frame in a rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
    >>realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.

    If you're just talking about spraying, you're probably right. Weigel's Frame Saver, if you follow
    the directions, is a different matter. The procedure is fairly complicated and messy, involving
    plugging tubes temporarily with rags and tipping the frame back and forth various ways to
    distribute the goo.

    I believe it is effective when done properly, but even in snowy/salty New England I very, very
    rarely see a bicycle with serious rust damage to the frame.

    Bill Putnam wrote:

    > This was done on old black Nottingham Raleighs, where the entire frame was dipped in paint. Plus,
    > the frame dimensions on an old Raleigh Sports are probably better suited to the riding people
    > most people do than the modern steep angle short stays that have dominated the road bike market,
    > or suspension forked mountain bikes that are never ridden off pavement.

    72/72, it doesn't get any better than that!

    Sheldon "Nottingham Knew" Brown +----------------------------------------------+
    | Certainly the game is rigged. | Don't let that stop you; | if you don't bet, you can't win. |
    | --Robert A. Heinlein |
    +----------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  18. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Derk Drukker writes:

    > I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    > something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
    > be best to use for this purpose?

    Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration brought on
    by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the tube
    that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.

    If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there won't
    be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone rode
    steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more. Frame
    saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the
    1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  19. Alexey Merz

    Alexey Merz Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Derk Drukker writes:
    >
    > > I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
    > > something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
    > > would be best to use for this purpose?
    >
    > Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration brought
    > on by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the
    > tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.
    >
    > If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there
    > won't be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone
    > rode steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more.
    > Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames
    > since the 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

    But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the
    Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the
    surface of your car the day after you've washed it?

    In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of messengering in Portland, Oregon, I
    didn't worry and as you say I did not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New Hampshire -
    that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in my frames might or might not help, but I am
    willing to spend a couple of bucks to try, and I'm not about to order a second custom road frame to
    ride on alternate days as an untreated control.

    This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime setting knows about salt water
    and corrosion of steel. What I *don't* know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope is that the
    Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of the frame - but it's only a couple
    of bucks and I'll probably never know whether it helped or not.

    -Alex Merz
     
  20. In article <[email protected]>, Alexey Merz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the
    >Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the
    >surface of your car the day after you've washed it?

    I have ridden and worked bike shops in Michigan where the roads are heavily salted. In winter along
    the side of the road you see handlebars sticking out of salty snow banks where the plows toss salt
    slush. Those bikes are fully immersed, covered in salt water inside and out for several months.

    I have never once seen a bike there with the frame rusted through except a few bikes on indoor
    trainers. It probably has happened in recorded history but I tuned up those bikes dug out of the
    snow, plenty hundreds of them, didn't find frame corrosion to be a problem. Chains, freewheels,
    bottom brackets, and derailleurs do tend to get ruined real quick, and wheels built without
    stainless spokes are a total loss. Stems and seatposts stuck in the frame, definitely, but no tubing
    failures that I can recall, I think I would remember.

    --Paul
     
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