treating the inside of a steel frame?

[G.Daniels]

the stays and top tube need careful eyeballing, widening drainholes so the air can escape upwards as
the thinned paint or linseed flows downwards or drilling drainholes if none exist and faith as who
can see in a chainstay unless youra surgeon under malpractice. try twirling the frame in the
appropriate directions over head with two coats to be sure. everyone experiences the, oh **** I
missed a spot, god knows what happens in a chainstay. Mr. Brandt lives in the west coast possibly
dew point free(and expects me to rag about this)while we hear in the east grow grass and are
generally ambivalent about raw dirt and frequently are victimized by rot, milldew, green
spot(heheh), and rust rust rust. have you seen the price of a GTV!!!or a '58 ford wagon? my god.
listen if e.merkx rode it take it over to the shop and have them strip and paint it.

 

[David E. Belche]

Derk Drukker <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Hi!
>
> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
> be best to use for this purpose?
>

Fort treat theirs in-house after painting, using linseed oil.

David E. Belcher

Dept. of Chemistry, University of York

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:07:37 -0500, g.daniels wrote:

> the stays and top tube need careful eyeballing, widening drainholes so the air can escape upwards
> as the thinned paint or linseed flows downwards or drilling drainholes if none exist

Note: They are not drainholes. The holes in the stays are there to allow hot air to escape during
welding/brazing. If there were no holes, pressure would build up in the tube and air would
bubble through the joint, weakening it.

Not enough air/water gets through them to matter. The only source of enough water to do more than
annoy is from riding in the rain, having water run down the seatpost then into the frame. Grease the
seatpost well before you install it, and that will be that.

> Mr. Brandt lives in the west coast possibly dew point free

Jobst lives in the Bay Area, which has plenty of moisture. The West Coast is not all desert.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Paul Southworth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6VHda.33629$A%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Alexey Merz
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the
> >Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the
> >surface of your car the day after you've washed it?
>
> I have ridden and worked bike shops in Michigan where the roads are heavily salted. In winter
> along the side of the road you see handlebars sticking out of salty snow banks where the plows
> toss salt slush. Those bikes are fully immersed, covered in salt water inside and out for
> several months.
>
> I have never once seen a bike there with the frame rusted through except a few bikes on indoor
> trainers. It probably has happened in recorded history but I tuned up those bikes dug out of the
> snow, plenty hundreds of them, didn't find frame corrosion to be a problem. Chains, freewheels,
> bottom brackets, and derailleurs do tend to get ruined real quick, and wheels built without
> stainless spokes are a total loss. Stems and seatposts stuck in the frame, definitely, but no
> tubing failures that I can recall, I think I would remember.

Sweat is a killer! I have some nasty rust under the paint on my track bike.

I would like to hear from the metalurgists about whether rust can create a stress riser and
contribute to a crack failure as opposed to rusting through. I broke a steel frame that was
seriously rusted on the inside and always wondered whether it rusted through or if it just cracked
-- or both in some measure. The frame had been totalled after an accident and rebuilt as a
fixer-commuter. I never cleaned it, and it accumulated a good amount of water in the down tube which
was fairly well sealed off by a Phil BB. It cracked all the way around the down tube about a
half-inch above the BB, and rusty water poured out. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Alexey Merz writes:

>>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
>>> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
>>> would be best to use for this purpose?

>> Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration brought
>> on by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the
>> tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.

>> If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there
>> won't be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone
>> rode steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more.
>> Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames
>> since the 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???

> But are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the Alps or
> Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the surface
> of your car the day after you've washed it?

How does the sale on the road get in the frame? If the seat post clamp zone is sealed, there should
be no road water entering the frame. Besides, most of these frame tube treatments are either
damaging if they are curing paint-like coatings that cover a patina of rust without good adherence.
They build a capillary that can fill but not dry out if moisture were to enter that gap, which it
will since it is not covering all parts. Oils do no good because water penetrates oils, makes an
emulsion and accelerates rust. Try oiling an ax and leaving it out doors in the rain.

> In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of messengering in Portland, Oregon, I
> didn't worry and as you say I did not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New Hampshire
> - that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in my frames might or might not help, but I
> am willing to spend a couple of bucks to try, and I'm not about to order a second custom road
> frame to ride on alternate days as an untreated control.

You might as well throw salt over your shoulder as put some spray in goop in the frame tubes. Making
sure there isn't a leak somewhere on the frame is the important effort.

> This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime setting knows about salt water
> and corrosion of steel. What I *don't* know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope is that
> the Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of the frame - but it's only a
> couple of bucks and I'll probably never know whether it helped or not.

Sure, my car windshield is all crusty after I drive down the coast to Santa Cruz. That's one reason
why I prefer to ride bike on that route. That reminds me, you should also knock on wood before
throwing salt over your shoulder.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Jobst Brandt]

David E. Belcher writes:

>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
>> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
>> would be best to use for this purpose?

> Fort treat theirs in-house after painting, using linseed oil.

More tying and soldering, and by a company that should know better, and maybe they do.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Jobst Brandt]

George Daniels writes:

> The stays and top tube need careful eyeballing, widening drain holes so the air can escape upwards
> as the thinned paint or linseed flows downwards or drilling drain holes if none exist and faith as
> who can see in a chainstay unless your a surgeon under malpractice.

Bad suggestion. First, these are not drain holes but vent holes for brazing. Without a vent, in an
otherwise closed tube, brass will not flow into the lug and a fillet braze will have bubble holes.
After brazing, a good frame builder will braze the vents shut. You can do the same with RTV. Those
holes are not sacred. They belong to the user who should close them if there is any doubt about
moisture intrusion.

> Try twirling the frame in the appropriate directions over head with two coats to be sure. Everyone
> experiences the, oh **** I missed a spot, god knows what happens in a chainstay.

Oh no! Tied and soldered spokes being dead, we HAVE found a new incantation, including swinging a
dead cat (or bicycle frame) around the head. What mystic prayers are appropriate for this rite?

> Mr. Brandt lives in the west coast possibly dew point free(and expects me to rag about this)while
> we hear in the east grow grass and are generally ambivalent about raw dirt and frequently are
> victimized by rot, milldew, green spot(heheh), and rust rust rust.

Oh yes, in California it never rains, relative humidity is always below 5%, and the sun always
shines. If you believe that, you are spending too much time in travel magazines. By the way, I rode
my bicycle in Germany for six years and spent time in some of the worst weather in US Army mountain
warfare training areas among other things. I also rode many miles in winter, see:

http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/

> Have you seen the price of a GTV!!! or a '58 ford wagon? My god. Listen if e.merkx rode it take it
> over to the shop and have them strip and paint it.

I don't get it. This must be an "IN" joke. What are you implying?

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Jay Beattie writes:

> Sweat is a killer! I have some nasty rust under the paint on my track bike.

So how does sweat get inside the frame tubes?

> I would like to hear from the metalurgists about whether rust can create a stress riser and
> contribute to a crack failure as opposed to rusting through. I broke a steel frame that was
> seriously rusted on the inside and always wondered whether it rusted through or if it just cracked
> -- or both in some measure. The frame had been totalled after an accident and rebuilt as a
> fixer-commuter. I never cleaned it, and it accumulated a good amount of water in the down tube
> which was fairly well sealed off by a Phil BB. It cracked all the way around the down tube about a
> half-inch above the BB, and rusty water poured out.

From this I take it you must have hung it upside down in the rain. How does the downtube fill with
water when it is open to the BB shell that cannot get fuller than the lower side of the spindle. If
you really had a sealed BB then the bearings should have been a clue that something was wrong.

So explain how water got in the down tube. I can only imagine that the frame repair left a rag in
there for a moisture wick.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Alexey Merz]

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Alexey Merz writes:
>
> >>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of liquid wax or oil or
> >>> something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance
> >>> would be best to use for this purpose?
>
> >> Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration
> >> brought on by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat
> >> tube (the tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.
>
> >> If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there
> >> won't be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone
> >> rode steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more.
> >> Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames
> >> since the 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???
>
> > But are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and not the Bay Area or the Alps
> > or Sierra in the Summer) where they use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the
> > surface of your car the day after you've washed it?
>
> How does the sale on the road get in the frame? If the seat post clamp zone is sealed, there
> should be no road water entering the frame.

Through the head tube: the lower BB shell area on my bikes at least is surprisingly quickly
contaminated with emulsified greasy salt-paste, when I ride in heavy weather (there is not adequate
fender clearance on my current road bike. Maybe it's time to use a better-sealed BB.

> Besides, most of these frame tube treatments are either damaging if they are curing paint-like
> coatings that cover a patina of rust without good adherence. They build a capillary that can fill
> but not dry out if moisture were to enter that gap, which it will since it is not covering all
> parts. Oils do no good because water penetrates oils, makes an emulsion and accelerates rust. Try
> oiling an ax and leaving it out doors in the rain.

That depends. why don't you put a cake of beeswax in a bathtub of room temperature water and get
back to me when it's emulsified. A wax that's been surface-deposited by an organic solvent carrier
that then evaporates is not readily emulsified by water. Lipid biochemistry is what I spend 50+
hours a week on, and I do prepare lipid suspensions with some regularity - from films made by
organic (chloroform/methanol) deposition. Even with medium-chain (C12) unsaturated fatty acids,
mechanical mixing (sonication) is generally required for efficient emulsification. A wax will be
much, much harder to emulsify.

> > In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of messengering in Portland, Oregon, I
> > didn't worry and as you say I did not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New
> > Hampshire - that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in my frames might or might not
> > help, but I am willing to spend a couple of bucks to try, and I'm not about to order a second
> > custom road frame to ride on alternate days as an untreated control.
>
> You might as well throw salt over your shoulder as put some spray in goop in the frame tubes.
> Making sure there isn't a leak somewhere on the frame is the important effort.

I seal the seat tube/seatpost junction on my MtB with a section of snug-fitting inner tube; the seat
clamp area on that bike doesn't provide a particularly effective seal, even with grease.

And yes, I recognize that my small efforts may be in vain, or unneeded. So I spend a small amount of
time and money for some chance of reducing a modest risk. We make choices all the time based on
insufficient information, and I don't suggest that in such situations you should make the same
choice as me. So What's the Problem?

> > This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime setting knows about salt
> > water and corrosion of steel. What I *don't* know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope
> > is that the Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of the frame - but it's
> > only a couple of bucks and I'll probably never know whether it helped or not.
>
> Sure, my car windshield is all crusty after I drive down the coast to Santa Cruz.

I spent most of my childhood living in Santa Cruz, Jobst. We're talking about _vastly_ different
amounts of salt accumulation here and there.

> That's one reason why I prefer to ride bike on that route. That reminds me, you should also knock
> on wood before throwing salt over your shoulder.

 

[G.Daniels]

water VAPOR is an evil pernicious gas knowing no bounds no limits no paradigm absolute penetration
of all cracks seams windows and what have you-limitless!!!!TRUST ME ON THIS. HAVE FAITH. if
worrying about
it. do something!(then you won't need to worrynabout it anymore.

 

[Jay Beattie]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Jay Beattie writes:
>
> > Sweat is a killer! I have some nasty rust under the paint on my track bike.
>
> So how does sweat get inside the frame tubes?

Under the paint. Not in the tube. There was probably a rock ding or some other discontinuity
which allowed the sweat to seep under the paint and make things scabby. I always ragged down the
frame after roller riding, but there is still some rust on the underside of the down-tube near
the BB shell.
>
> > I would like to hear from the metalurgists about whether rust can create a stress riser and
> > contribute to a crack failure as opposed to rusting through. I broke a steel frame that was
> > seriously rusted on the inside and always wondered whether it rusted through or if it just
> > cracked -- or both in some measure. The frame had been totalled after an accident and rebuilt as
> > a fixer-commuter. I never cleaned it, and it accumulated a good amount of water in the down tube
> > which was fairly well sealed off by a Phil BB. It cracked all the way around the down tube about
> > a half-inch above the BB, and rusty water poured out.
>
> From this I take it you must have hung it upside down in the rain. How does the downtube fill with
> water when it is open to the BB shell that cannot get fuller than the lower side of the spindle.
> If you really had a sealed BB then the bearings should have been a clue that something was wrong.

I assume the water entered through the key-hole slot on the seat tube or around the seat post or
through the bottle-bosses on the seat tube or down tube which were not always plugged. The bottom
braket shell was not drilled, and the water that came out after the frame failed probably was
sloshing around at the bottom of the bottom bracket shell. The water could not exit easily around
the Phil BB, which as you know, is a cartridge unit. The lock rings make a pretty good seal between
the O.D. of the cartridge and the BB shell. That rusty water poured out is a bit of an overstatement
-- but it did trickle out of the BB when the bike was layed over for inspection. The BB unit was a
rusty, too, even though the shell of the Phil BB is stainless steel. Like I said, this bike was
already a wreck.

This bike was ridden in Oregon in the rain five days a week for probably three to four months a year
for probably three or four years. It was ridden and raced for five years in Ca. before that. It
failed during a rainy season (although on a dry day). It had a dented seat tube from a car crash and
it was virtually never cleaned. The bearings were dry because the grease had been washed out by rain
and probably not because of water in the BB shell. The bearings in a Phil BB are not exposed to the
inside of the BB shell. And again, I am not saying it rusted through -- it was just rusty inside,
and it broke.

> So explain how water got in the down tube. I can only imagine that the frame repair left a rag in
> there for a moisture wick.

See above. -- Jay Beattie.