Triathlon Transitions

Discussion in 'Triathlon' started by Tommy Tri, Jun 9, 2003.

  1. Tommy Tri

    Tommy Tri Guest

    Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    transition time?

    Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.

    Just asking?
     
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  2. Joe Navratil

    Joe Navratil Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Tommy Tri wrote:
    >
    > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    > of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >

    Well, yeah, triathlon's the only sport in the world that counts "changing clothes and equipment" in
    the race time, if you discount:

    - Any type of track relay race (certainly passing the baton is changing equipment, even if you
    discount the completely new "engine" used for every leg)

    - Most types of "adventure racing" (switching from the mountain bike to the kayak, only 18
    hours to go...)

    - Pretty much every widely-accepted form of vehicular racing (auto, motorcycle, etc -- or should we
    stop counting pit-stop times in F1?)

    I think the key here is the "race" aspect. The gun goes off, the clock starts; the clock keeps going
    until you cross the finish line.

    The pole vault isn't timed.

    -Joe
     
  3. John Hardt

    John Hardt Guest

    On 6/9/03 2:30 PM, in article, "Tommy Tri" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    > transition time?
    >
    > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    > of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >
    > Just asking?

    The problem with your proposed approach is that Triathlon is supposed to be an endurance event.

    If you discount the transition times, what's to stop me from strolling into T2, sitting down to drop
    my heart rate, get a drink, stretch my muscles, get a massage, take a piss, kiss my wife and kids,
    read the morning paper, and having a bite to eat before heading out for the run leg?

    Maybe that's OK with you, but it certainly changes the fundamental nature of the event.

    John
     
  4. Mike Tennent

    Mike Tennent Guest

    [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote:

    >Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    >transition time?
    >

    Not sure what it has to do with drafting. However...

    >Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    >of the performance time.

    I suppose the closest thing would be pit stops in auto racing. A tire change is a change of
    equipment. The clock keeps running and time in the pits effects the overall speed average of the
    race for each car.

    >The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.

    But the decathlon is not a continuous event.

    Mike Tennent "IronPenguin"
     
  5. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On 9 Jun 2003 11:30:31 -0700, [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote:

    >Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    >transition time?
    >
    >Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    >of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >
    >Just asking?

    Frankly I love the transitions. It was one of the things that hooked me on tri's. Something
    about the complete and utter organized chaos mixed with the partial high of oxygen
    deprevation and fatigue all while trying to think rationally. The time in the "pits" is the
    most exciting part of the event in IMO. Without it the race would be turned into a swim
    followed by a bike ride followed by a run, not a triathlon.

    ~Matt
     
  6. Topdog

    Topdog Guest

    [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    > transition time?
    >
    > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    > of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >
    > Just asking?
    Hmmm... Why not go to NASCAR and ask them to remove pit times from their races. Total time on track
    wins. Basically that's the same thing that you are advocating. Here's the problem - if I have no
    time while in the transitions, I'm going to rest up in there as long as I can at absolutely no cost.
    Besides, timed transitions make for great strategy. Do I take the time to change out of these
    clothes, do I cut a few corners and try to save some time, do I take a bit longer and hope to make
    it up on the next leg? It's much the same as auto racing. It's the time and decisions in the pits
    that can make or break the race.
     
  7. Harold Buck

    Harold Buck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (topdog) wrote:

    > [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    > > transition time?
    > >
    > > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as
    > > part of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    > >
    > > Just asking?
    > Hmmm... Why not go to NASCAR and ask them to remove pit times from their races. Total time on
    > track wins. Basically that's the same thing that you are advocating. Here's the problem - if I
    > have no time while in the transitions, I'm going to rest up in there as long as I can at
    > absolutely no cost. Besides, timed transitions make for great strategy. Do I take the time to
    > change out of these clothes, do I cut a few corners and try to save some time, do I take a bit
    > longer and hope to make it up on the next leg? It's much the same as auto racing. It's the time
    > and decisions in the pits that can make or break the race.

    Like the guy who coasts across the finish line first with no gas. . . . or doesn't quite make it.
    They're decisions made under pressure, and a big part of the mental aspect of sport (not that I
    consider car racing a sport, mind you, but this scenario always fascinated me).

    They could, of course, allot everyone a fixed time for each transition and make sure everyone used
    it all, but it would take a lot away from the sport, I think.

    Me, I'm not going to win any awards, so I'll take the time to put on socks or even chance into
    running shorts after the bike for a long race. I'd rather be comfortable. But those pros swimming
    with their cycling shoes on really inspire me!

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

    - Homer J. Simpson
     
  8. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:44:40 GMT, Harold Buck <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (topdog) wrote:
    >
    >> [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote in message
    >> news:<[email protected]>...
    >> > Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the transition
    >> > time?
    >> >
    >> > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as
    >> > part of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >> >
    >> > Just asking?
    >> Hmmm... Why not go to NASCAR and ask them to remove pit times from their races. Total time on
    >> track wins. Basically that's the same thing that you are advocating. Here's the problem - if I
    >> have no time while in the transitions, I'm going to rest up in there as long as I can at
    >> absolutely no cost. Besides, timed transitions make for great strategy. Do I take the time to
    >> change out of these clothes, do I cut a few corners and try to save some time, do I take a bit
    >> longer and hope to make it up on the next leg? It's much the same as auto racing. It's the time
    >> and decisions in the pits that can make or break the race.
    >
    >
    >
    >Like the guy who coasts across the finish line first with no gas. . . . or doesn't quite make it.
    >They're decisions made under pressure, and a big part of the mental aspect of sport (not that I
    >consider car racing a sport, mind you, but this scenario always fascinated me).
    >
    >They could, of course, allot everyone a fixed time for each transition and make sure everyone used
    >it all, but it would take a lot away from the sport, I think.
    >
    >Me, I'm not going to win any awards, so I'll take the time to put on socks or even chance into
    >running shorts after the bike for a long race. I'd rather be comfortable. But those pros swimming
    >with their cycling shoes on really inspire me!

    What? Is that legal? Seems entirely not right to me. Although I can see the advantage in
    transition time I can also see a whole lot of areas to cheat on the swim. I.E. Wearing
    larger shoes, specially designed ones etc.

    ~Matt

    >
    >--Harold Buck
    >
    >
    >"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
    >
    > - Homer J. Simpson
     
  9. Sherpa Bob

    Sherpa Bob Guest

    A Decathlon is a series of 10 different events, held over multiple days; you earn points for each of
    the events, and then sum them at the end to determine the winner.

    A Triathlon is a set of 3 events held consecutively on a single day, where you are determined to be
    the winner if you have the fastest time from the start of the 1st event until the finish of the 3rd.
    And the same definition holds whether you're participating in a bike draft-legal or bike
    draft-illegal format.

    What would be the purpose of eliminating the transition time?

    [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    > transition time?
    >
    > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    > of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >
    > Just asking?
     
  10. Harold Buck

    Harold Buck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, MJuric wrote:

    > >
    > >Me, I'm not going to win any awards, so I'll take the time to put on socks or even chance into
    > >running shorts after the bike for a long race. I'd rather be comfortable. But those pros swimming
    > >with their cycling shoes on really inspire me!
    >
    > What? Is that legal? Seems entirely not right to me. Although I can see the advantage in
    > transition time I can also see a whole lot of areas to cheat on the swim. I.E. Wearing
    > larger shoes, specially designed ones etc.

    Um, that was a JOKE.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

    - Homer J. Simpson
     
  11. Suz

    Suz Guest

    Awww, come on you guys, don't you know a good troll when you see one???

    Suz

    "Sherpa Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > A Decathlon is a series of 10 different events, held over multiple days; you earn points for each
    > of the events, and then sum them at the end to determine the winner.
    >
    > A Triathlon is a set of 3 events held consecutively on a single day, where you are determined to
    > be the winner if you have the fastest time from the start of the 1st event until the finish of the
    > 3rd. And the same definition holds whether you're participating in a bike draft-legal or bike
    > draft-illegal format.
    >
    > What would be the purpose of eliminating the transition time?
    >
    >
    > [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    > > transition time?
    > >
    > > Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as
    > > part of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    > >
    > > Just asking?
     
  12. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:00:46 GMT, Harold Buck <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, MJuric wrote:
    >
    >> >
    >> >Me, I'm not going to win any awards, so I'll take the time to put on socks or even chance into
    >> >running shorts after the bike for a long race. I'd rather be comfortable. But those pros
    >> >swimming with their cycling shoes on really inspire me!
    >>
    >> What? Is that legal? Seems entirely not right to me. Although I can see the advantage in
    >> transition time I can also see a whole lot of areas to cheat on the swim. I.E. Wearing
    >> larger shoes, specially designed ones etc.
    >
    >
    >Um, that was a JOKE.

    Sorry didn't get it. Alls I could see was some guy wearing size 16 cycling shoes adn flying
    through the swim.

    ~Matt
    >
    >--Harold Buck
    >
    >
    >"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
    >
    > - Homer J. Simpson
     
  13. Witheld

    Witheld Guest

    Yeah, but that is your *take* on what the sport of triathlon is TODAY. There are folks out there who
    call a 1.5/40/10 triathlon a "mini-triathlon" and ask when you plan to do a "whole-triathlon",
    meaning Ironman Distance... : )

    My point is that, if someone wants to stage a phased (transitionless) triathlon, we should consider
    supporting it.

    I would be interested to see how many "fast-twitchers" would alter the usual race results. I would
    very interested in measuring myself in what swimmers might call a "drop-dead sprint triathlon"...

    200 meter swim 10K TT Bike 2K Run

    It is like track & field (including triathlon). The people who are succesful at this distance, may
    not be as succesful at an Ironman - - but it could be fun(?).

    <A "snip" from Bob's response> "A Triathlon is a set of 3 events held consecutively on a single day,
    where you are determined to be the winner if you have the fastest time from the start of the 1st
    event until the finish of the 3rd. And the same definition holds whether you're participating in a
    bike draft-legal or bike draft-illegal format."
     
  14. John Hughes

    John Hughes Guest

    "Witheld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Yeah, but that is your *take* on what the sport of triathlon is TODAY. There are folks out there
    > who call a 1.5/40/10 triathlon a "mini-triathlon" and ask when you plan to do a "whole-triathlon",
    > meaning Ironman Distance... : )
    >
    > My point is that, if someone wants to stage a phased (transitionless) triathlon, we should
    > consider supporting it.
    >
    > I would be interested to see how many "fast-twitchers" would alter the usual race results. I would
    > very interested in measuring myself in what swimmers might call a "drop-dead sprint triathlon"...
    >
    > 200 meter swim 10K TT Bike 2K Run
    >
    > It is like track & field (including triathlon). The people who are succesful at this distance, may
    > not be as succesful at an Ironman - - but it could be fun(?).
    >
    > <A "snip" from Bob's response> "A Triathlon is a set of 3 events held consecutively on a single
    > day, where you are determined to be the winner if you have the fastest time from the start of the
    > 1st event until the finish of the 3rd. And the same definition holds whether you're participating
    > in a bike draft-legal or bike draft-illegal format."

    We actually stage our club champs in this format, and because I'm a faster TT'r but a slower
    swimmer, come the run I normally have a 2 minute gap on people who beat me in a normal Tri, so I
    then run the run with them. Which enables me to beat people who put 2 or more minutes into me in a
    sprint distance Tri. Because of the time between the swim end and the TT start, I have sufficiently
    recovered to put minutes into them on the bike.
     
  15. Topdog

    Topdog Guest

    [email protected] (Witheld) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Yeah, but that is your *take* on what the sport of triathlon is TODAY. There are folks out there
    > who call a 1.5/40/10 triathlon a "mini-triathlon" and ask when you plan to do a "whole-triathlon",
    > meaning Ironman Distance... : )
    >
    > My point is that, if someone wants to stage a phased (transitionless) triathlon, we should
    > consider supporting it.
    >
    > I would be interested to see how many "fast-twitchers" would alter the usual race results. I would
    > very interested in measuring myself in what swimmers might call a "drop-dead sprint triathlon"...
    >
    > 200 meter swim 10K TT Bike 2K Run
    >
    > It is like track & field (including triathlon). The people who are succesful at this distance, may
    > not be as succesful at an Ironman - - but it could be fun(?).

    Agreed, depending on the distances, you will get different results. Remember that there isn't one
    agreed upon distance for a tri - even in the sprints they vary greatly. Personally, I pick and
    choose my main races. I am very strong in swim\bike, and relatively weak in the run, so I try to
    find a race with a long swim and short run. Further, there may be another factor differentiating
    success in a short race vs an IM distance - training and fitness level. One can be very successful
    in a sprint with a lot less training that it would take to do well in an IM. Let's face it - most of
    us work for a living, and have a hard time training 15-20 hrs a week (what we'd likely need if we
    wanted to do OK in an IM). This likely will have a greater effect than fast twitch\slow twitch...

    However, I fail to see how not counting the transition times would matter with race distances, or
    make a tri more interesting or competitive. I know many who consider transitions the "fourth leg",
    especially in the shorter distances. As it is now, while there are three legs, they make up one
    complete race, and the transitions add a great deal of strategy to it. Without them, you really have
    three distinct races that would have one overall time. BORING! :)
     
  16. Harold Buck

    Harold Buck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (topdog) wrote:

    > However, I fail to see how not counting the transition times would matter with race distances, or
    > make a tri more interesting or competitive. I know many who consider transitions the "fourth leg",
    > especially in the shorter distances. As it is now, while there are three legs, they make up one
    > complete race, and the transitions add a great deal of strategy to it. Without them, you really
    > have three distinct races that would have one overall time. BORING! :)

    There's another point people are missing: normally events like the decathlon assign points to
    performances, presumably to weight the events roughly equally. Total time doesn't make sense in the
    decathlon, since there are no "times" for the weight and jumping events. But even if it did, why
    would you add the times for, say, the 100m and 1500m runs? It would effectively negate the 100M run:
    a 1-second victory in the 100m is HUGE, but the person winning the 1500m would likely win it by more
    than one second.

    If you don't want to switch to a weighting or points system (or weight the distances so the times
    are comparable), doing a triathlon in stages with rest between events makes little sense.

    (BTW, the points system also potentially allows someone to compete and get a final score while
    missing an event or getting DQed; in practice, this takes you out of contention for medals, although
    in principle you could still win if you, say, no-heighted the pole vault).

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

    - Homer J. Simpson
     
  17. On 9 Jun 2003 11:30:31 -0700, [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote:

    >Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    >transition time?
    >
    >Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as part
    >of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    >
    >Just asking?

    I did once see an ad for a winter indoor triathlon that gives everyone 5 or 10 minutes for each
    transition. Anything over the limit was included in the total race time, but there was no bonus for
    completing the transition faster then the time limit. The downside of such a race format is that you
    don't really know where you stand in rank once the swim is over. It is very possible that you could
    finish before someone else (because you did a quicker transition), but still be beaten by him/her
    (because he/she did the swim, bike, and run faster, but used up all or nearly all of the allowed
    transition time). But that, like reverse order triathlons, is an uncommon race format.
     
  18. Harold Buck

    Harold Buck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Radioactive Man <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On 9 Jun 2003 11:30:31 -0700, [email protected] (Tommy Tri) wrote:
    >
    > >Have the anti-draftites ever considered a lobby to rid the triathlon of counting the
    > >transition time?
    > >
    > >Surely this must be the only sport in the world that counts changing clothes and equipment as
    > >part of the performance time. The Decathlon does not launch a sprint from the pole vault pit.
    > >
    > >Just asking?

    Oh, yeah. In the biathlon, they don't count transition time toward your total time, or in
    duathlon either.

    In NASCAR racing, pit stops don't count against you either. You can get out of the car, take a bath,
    whatever, and finish the race when you feel like it.

    Also, in track, they don't count the time it takes to exchange the baton against you. They just have
    4 people run against the clock and then total up the times.

    Oh, wait, maybe that isn't right after all.

    Think about it: in other racing sports, if you WANT to change clothes and equipment, the clock
    doesn't stop for you. You don't HAVE to take any time for transitions in triathlon: swim without a
    wetsuit, then bike and run barefoot.

    [Actually, I'd bet there's a rule that says you have to wear shoes.]

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

    - Homer J. Simpson
     
  19. Kristian

    Kristian New Member

    Joined:
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    Your right there is a rule. Some european races may turn a blind eye though.;)
     
  20. Warwick

    Warwick Guest

    Would look a bit funny riding in clown shoes!!

    <MJuric> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:00:46 GMT, Harold Buck <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >In article <[email protected]>, MJuric wrote:
    > >
    > >> >
    > >> >Me, I'm not going to win any awards, so I'll take the time to put on socks or even chance into
    > >> >running shorts after the bike for a long
    race.
    > >> >I'd rather be comfortable. But those pros swimming with their cycling shoes on really
    > >> >inspire me!
    > >>
    > >> What? Is that legal? Seems entirely not right to me. Although I can see the advantage in
    > >> transition time I can also see a whole lot of areas to cheat on the swim. I.E. Wearing larger
    > >> shoes, specially designed ones etc.
    > >
    > >
    > >Um, that was a JOKE.
    >
    > Sorry didn't get it. Alls I could see was some guy wearing size 16 cycling shoes adn flying
    > through the swim.
    >
    > ~Matt
    > >
    > >--Harold Buck
    > >
    > >
    > >"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
    > >
    > > - Homer J. Simpson
     
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