Triple chainsets, 10sp, BBs - advice needed.

[bookieb]

Hi All,

On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
- Ultegra 10sp hubs and casette
- Ultegra long cage rear mech
- DA 10sp downtube shifters
- Ultegra 10sp chain

....so far, so conventional, but then it gets a bit weird...

Sachs front der.
Suntour X1 triple chainset (old MTB stuff, 24-34-44).

I'm getting problems with the chain getting sucked between the rings
of the chainset, when particularly when using the middle ring at the
front and smallest cog at the rear. Given the mix of stuff I threw on
when I was building this bike, it's hardly surprising it doesn't work
perfectly.

The crank arms are fairly battered, and the rings are on their way
out. Likewise the BB axle (conventional cup/bearings/axle BB) is
showing a good bit of wear.

I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
change to STI at a later stage.

I see that Wiggle (among others) have road triple "10sp" Campag
chainsets that use a conventional square taper BB, and the price is
reasonable.

Is there a similar Shimano item available?

If not, and I buy a Campag one, is the ring spacing (i.e the gap
bertween the rings along the axis of the BB) different so that STI is
no longer an option?

Any other suggestions?

TIA,

bookieb.

 

[Buck]

On 2007-02-27 16:38:57 +0000, "bookieb" <[email protected]> said:

> Hi All,
>
> On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
> - Ultegra 10sp hubs and casette
> - Ultegra long cage rear mech
> - DA 10sp downtube shifters
> - Ultegra 10sp chain
>
> ...so far, so conventional, but then it gets a bit weird...
>
> Sachs front der.
> Suntour X1 triple chainset (old MTB stuff, 24-34-44).
>
> I'm getting problems with the chain getting sucked between the rings
> of the chainset, when particularly when using the middle ring at the
> front and smallest cog at the rear. Given the mix of stuff I threw on
> when I was building this bike, it's hardly surprising it doesn't work
> perfectly.
>
> The crank arms are fairly battered, and the rings are on their way
> out. Likewise the BB axle (conventional cup/bearings/axle BB) is
> showing a good bit of wear.
>
> I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
> fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
> etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
> change to STI at a later stage.
>
> I see that Wiggle (among others) have road triple "10sp" Campag
> chainsets that use a conventional square taper BB, and the price is
> reasonable.
>
> Is there a similar Shimano item available?
>
> If not, and I buy a Campag one, is the ring spacing (i.e the gap
> bertween the rings along the axis of the BB) different so that STI is
> no longer an option?
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> TIA,
>
> bookieb.

You should consider the new Ultegra Hollowtech II, the bb is integrated
with external bearing
cups, it will match the rest of the system and sort your current
problems, the spacing on the Campag
is slightly different and the Campag does not act that well with
Shimano chain, if you do mix Campag
and Shimano 10sp then it is best to switch to KMC 10sp chain as it
works well with either.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

 

[[email protected]]

On Feb 27, 4:38 pm, "bookieb" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
[snip mixed drivetrain]
> I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
> fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
> etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
> change to STI at a later stage.
>
> ...Wiggle (among others) have road triple "10sp" Campag
> chainsets that use a conventional square taper BB, and the price is
> reasonable.

Campag square taper (JIS?) is different from ISO square taper. Google
should be able to tell you which is bigger

best wishes
james

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, bookieb
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
> - Ultegra 10sp hubs and casette
> - Ultegra long cage rear mech
> - DA 10sp downtube shifters
> - Ultegra 10sp chain
>
> ...so far, so conventional, but then it gets a bit weird...
>
> Sachs front der.
> Suntour X1 triple chainset (old MTB stuff, 24-34-44).

> I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
> fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
> etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
> change to STI at a later stage.

Why do you need a triple, if you've got ten speed?

However...

My guess is that a Campag chainset will work, but I'd wait for Pete Biggs
who will give you a canonical answer. Do it soon, though, as Campag are
abandoning square taper this year.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

 

[bookieb]

On Feb 27, 5:30 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 4:38 pm, "bookieb" <[email protected]> wrote:> Hi All,
>
> > On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
>
> [snip mixed drivetrain]
>
> > I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
> > fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
> > etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
> > change to STI at a later stage.
>
> > ...Wiggle (among others) have road triple "10sp" Campag
> > chainsets that use a conventional square taper BB, and the price is
> > reasonable.
>
> Campag square taper (JIS?) is different from ISO square taper. Google
> should be able to tell you which is bigger
>
> best wishes
> james

Thanks James, I'll make sure to get ISO or JIS as appropriate.

Regards,

bookieb.

 

[bookieb]

On Feb 27, 5:43 pm, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, bookieb
>
>
>
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
<snip>
>
> > Sachs front der.
> > Suntour X1 triple chainset (old MTB stuff, 24-34-44).
> > I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
> > fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
> > etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
> > change to STI at a later stage.
>
> Why do you need a triple, if you've got ten speed?
>

Hi Simon,

Whether it's 10/9/8 or 7speed is pretty irrelevant to me - I was
buying new kit, and it seemed to make sense to buy the "current
standard" (although 9/8sp was/is still readily available.) Having 10
is nice, it gives me lots of intermediate gears, but I'm more
concerned about overall range.

I don't need a triple per se, but I do want to retain the bottom end
gearing.

Current set up gives me 24/24/44 on a 12/27 cassette - low 23.8in.
high 98.1in.

If I change to a double, it'll either be:
a conventional double, say 53/39 on the same casette, giving low
38.7in, high 118.2in.
or
a compact double, say 50/34 on the same casette, giving low 33.7in,
high 111.5in.

Either of the double options gives me a far bit extra high end (13%
higher for the compact), but a big loss in bottom end stump pulling
gears (lowest gear is 40% higher for the compact, even more with the
conventional). I started off on MTBs, and still tend to gear down and
spin my way up hills, rather than grind them out in a higher gear.

> However...
>
> My guess is that a Campag chainset will work, but I'd wait for Pete Biggs
> who will give you a canonical answer. Do it soon, though, as Campag are
> abandoning square taper this year.
>
> --
> [email protected] (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
> ...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

I know it'll work now with the non-indexed left lever of the down-tube
shifters. I just don't know if it'll be close enough to get by if I
do change to STI. Any ideas Pete (or anyone else)?

The only reason I'd change from the down tube levers is that I'm
looking at getting a new frame as well. Most off-the-shelf ones don't
have shift lever bosses on the down tube any more, just cable stops
for use with STI/ErgoPower. I could get bar end levers (never liked
'em personally - they don't feel as direct as down tube levers, don't
fall to hand as directly as STI/ErgoPower), or look at a set of "clamp
on" bosses (yuck).

I don't really want to change to the newer BB designs either.
Probably just my internal grouch speaking, but I never found any
problem with the old design, either in terms of flex (which I could
never detect, despite weighing >100kg for a period of time when I
started out) or reliability. I have the tools for the old type, it's
simple, it works.

Perhaps you're right Simon. Maybe I should just suppress my internal
Luddite for a while and lash out on one of the Shimano triples, BB cup
set, and tools. It doesn't feel like progress though, just change.

Thanks for the suggestions though,

regards,

bookieb

 

[bookieb]

On Feb 27, 5:43 pm, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, bookieb
>
>
>
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
> > - Ultegra 10sp hubs and casette
> > - Ultegra long cage rear mech
> > - DA 10sp downtube shifters
> > - Ultegra 10sp chain
>
> > ...so far, so conventional, but then it gets a bit weird...
>
> > Sachs front der.
> > Suntour X1 triple chainset (old MTB stuff, 24-34-44).
> > I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge is
> > fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid Octalink/splined
> > etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible in case I decide to
> > change to STI at a later stage.
>
> Why do you need a triple, if you've got ten speed?
>
> However...
>
> My guess is that a Campag chainset will work, but I'd wait for Pete Biggs
> who will give you a canonical answer. Do it soon, though, as Campag are
> abandoning square taper this year.
>
> --
> [email protected] (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
> ...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?



Sorry, and just to be clear, am I correct in thinking that Octalink is
passe, Hollowtech II is the current "standard"?

bookieb.

 

[Pete Biggs]

bookieb wrote:
> On Feb 27, 5:43 pm, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>> in message <[email protected]>,
>> bookieb
>>
>> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>
>>> On my commuting/club run/Audax bike, I'm currently running:
>>> - Ultegra 10sp hubs and casette
>>> - Ultegra long cage rear mech
>>> - DA 10sp downtube shifters
>>> - Ultegra 10sp chain
>>
>>> ...so far, so conventional, but then it gets a bit weird...
>>
>>> Sachs front der.
>>> Suntour X1 triple chainset (old MTB stuff, 24-34-44).
>>> I'd like to get a new triple chainset and rings, new BB (cartridge
>>> is fine, but I'd prefer to retain square taper and avoid
>>> Octalink/splined etc.) a new front der. Should be 10sp compatible
>>> in case I decide to change to STI at a later stage.

Note that a Campag road triple chainset can't take a middle ring smaller
than 39t; 38t for Shimano road triple.

>> Why do you need a triple, if you've got ten speed?

No comment ;-)

>> However...
>>
>> My guess is that a Campag chainset will work, but I'd wait for Pete
>> Biggs who will give you a canonical answer. Do it soon, though, as
>> Campag are abandoning square taper this year.

Not done it myself but plenty of people have and they say Campag chainsets
"work fine" with Shimano shifters & mechs. But if the rings were too close
together, chainring spacers would solve that.

Bookieb, they are great-value chainsets. You'll be able to find one for
less than Wiggle's price. Look around on the net and eBay. Get a Campag BB
to go with it. I could post more detail on what BB if you mention the model
of chainset you want and the diameter of your bike frame's seat tube.

~PB

 

[Tom]

bookieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 5:30 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Campag square taper (JIS?) is different from ISO square taper. Google
>> should be able to tell you which is bigger
>>
>> best wishes
>> james
>
> Thanks James, I'll make sure to get ISO or JIS as appropriate.
>
>

Ezcept James has it the wrong way around. Shimano use JIS (Japanese
Industry Standard), Campag use ISO (International Standards Organisation).

Though both use the same taper (2 degrees IIRC), Campag BB's have an end
cross section of 12.7 mm, Shimano BB's have a larger starting cross section
of 12.9 mm. So Campag cranks on a JIS BB would sit too far out and Shimano
cranks on a ISO BB would sit too far in (so far in fact that you might not
be able to tighten them up)

Hope this helps

Tom
--
Return address is dead. Real address is at
http://www.happy-penguin.info/address.jpg

 

[bookieb]

On Feb 28, 12:07 am, "Pete Biggs"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> bookieb wrote:
> > On Feb 27, 5:43 pm, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> in message <[email protected]>,
> >> bookieb
>
<snip>
> Note that a Campag road triple chainset can't take a middle ring smaller
> than 39t; 38t for Shimano road triple.

Presumably the small ring on the road triple is a 30 or so.
Is that the minimum it can take?

<snip>
> Not done it myself but plenty of people have and they say Campag chainsets
> "work fine" with Shimano shifters & mechs. But if the rings were too close
> together, chainring spacers would solve that.

OK, I'll give it a go.

>
> Bookieb, they are great-value chainsets. You'll be able to find one for
> less than Wiggle's price. Look around on the net and eBay. Get a Campag BB
> to go with it. I could post more detail on what BB if you mention the model
> of chainset you want and the diameter of your bike frame's seat tube.
>
> ~PB

I don't have a calliper, but best guess with a ruler, 28-30mm (older
steel frame, uses 24mm (sic) seatpost.

Thanks Pete.

 

[Pete Biggs]

bookieb wrote:

> <snip>
>> Note that a Campag road triple chainset can't take a middle ring
>> smaller than 39t; 38t for Shimano road triple.
>
> Presumably the small ring on the road triple is a 30 or so.
> Is that the minimum it can take?

No, it comes with a 30 but can take anything down to 24. 26 is more
practical with a 39+ middle, though. This applies to both Campag and
Shimano road triples as both use 74mm BCD. Settle Cycles is the place to
buy TA and Stronglight rings.

/snip
[seat tube re Campag BBs]
> I don't have a calliper, but best guess with a ruler, 28-30mm (older
> steel frame, uses 24mm (sic) seatpost.

It'll probably be 28.6mm. For a any Campag road* triple chainset other than
Chorus or Record, you'll need a Mirage/Veloce/Centaur 111mm BB. The
new-style Centaur ones are lighter and use a different tool. Wiggle sells
tools for both types.

115.5mm BB is only intended for 32mm+ seat tube. Even then it's not
actually necessary if you can get the front mech to shift inwards enough. I
file my mechs!

Chorus/Record triple chainset require Chorus or Record asymmetrical 111mm,
regardless of seat tube size.

* I stick the "road" in there because Campag made mountain bike chainsets at
one time.

~PB

 

[bookieb]

On Feb 28, 1:02 pm, "Pete Biggs"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> bookieb wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> Note that a Campag road triple chainset can't take a middle ring
> >> smaller than 39t; 38t for Shimano road triple.
>
> > Presumably the small ring on the road triple is a 30 or so.
> > Is that the minimum it can take?
>
> No, it comes with a 30 but can take anything down to 24. 26 is more
> practical with a 39+ middle, though. This applies to both Campag and
> Shimano road triples as both use 74mm BCD. Settle Cycles is the place to
> buy TA and Stronglight rings.
>
> /snip
> [seat tube re Campag BBs]
>
> > I don't have a calliper, but best guess with a ruler, 28-30mm (older
> > steel frame, uses 24mm (sic) seatpost.
>
> It'll probably be 28.6mm. For a any Campag road* triple chainset other than
> Chorus or Record, you'll need a Mirage/Veloce/Centaur 111mm BB. The
> new-style Centaur ones are lighter and use a different tool. Wiggle sells
> tools for both types.
>
> 115.5mm BB is only intended for 32mm+ seat tube. Even then it's not
> actually necessary if you can get the front mech to shift inwards enough. I
> file my mechs!
>
> Chorus/Record triple chainset require Chorus or Record asymmetrical 111mm,
> regardless of seat tube size.
>
> * I stick the "road" in there because Campag made mountain bike chainsets at
> one time.
>
> ~PB

Thanks Pete - time to go shopping methinks!

Regards,

bookieb

 

[Jim Higson]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> bookieb wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>>> Note that a Campag road triple chainset can't take a middle ring
>>> smaller than 39t; 38t for Shimano road triple.
>>
>> Presumably the small ring on the road triple is a 30 or so.
>> Is that the minimum it can take?
>
> No, it comes with a 30 but can take anything down to 24. 26 is more
> practical with a 39+ middle, though. This applies to both Campag and
> Shimano road triples as both use 74mm BCD. Settle Cycles is the place to
> buy TA and Stronglight rings.

IME, the smallest you can get for the granny with a campag triple and FD is
28, with a 26 the chain rubs on the bottom of the FD cage.

Of course, if you changed the big ring down from the 52 as well, you could
put the FD lower and a 26 could well fit.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Jim Higson wrote:

> IME, the smallest you can get for the granny with a campag triple and
> FD is 28, with a 26 the chain rubs on the bottom of the FD cage.

Maybe you had your mech to high or something.

26/39/52 and 24/39/50 works with Campag chainsets & mechs, IME. Getting the
mech positioned & adjusted OK was a bugger of a job, but once it's done,
it's done.

~PB

 

[Dave Larrington]

In news:[email protected],
Jim Higson <[email protected]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

> IME, the smallest you can get for the granny with a campag triple and
> FD is 28, with a 26 the chain rubs on the bottom of the FD cage.
>
> Of course, if you changed the big ring down from the 52 as well, you
> could put the FD lower and a 26 could well fit.

I'm running a 24-42-52 Campag triple on the Trice, but that's with an
Ultegra triple FD. No rubbing problems here, and the added bonus that,
without Mr. Shimano's humungous ramps'n'pins sticking out of the side of the
middle ring, it's a hell of a lot quiter when on the little ring.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
If you want a bicycle, buy a bicycle. If you want something
that folds, buy a deckchair.