Tubular ride quality on low spoke-count wheels?

[David B.]

I've got an opportunity to get a pair of Bontrager "Race X Lite" wheels
at employee purchase price, and although I really don't "need" fancy
race wheels, I am definitely tempted.

But I'm torn as to whether to get the tubular or clincher version.
Given that these wheels are totally impractical for me in the first
place, I figure that I might as well go whole hog and get tubulars. My
question is whether there will be any perceptible difference in ride
quality or cornering relative to high quality clincher tires? Does the
fact that these are aero wheels with a relatively high rim profile and
high-tension 20/24 spoking change the clincher/tubular equation at all?

 

[Arthur Harris]

"David B." wrote:
> I've got an opportunity to get a pair of Bontrager "Race X Lite" wheels
> at employee purchase price, and although I really don't "need" fancy
> race wheels, I am definitely tempted.
>
> But I'm torn as to whether to get the tubular or clincher version.
> Given that these wheels are totally impractical for me in the first
> place, I figure that I might as well go whole hog and get tubulars. My
> question is whether there will be any perceptible difference in ride
> quality or cornering relative to high quality clincher tires?

> Does the
> fact that these are aero wheels with a relatively high rim profile and
> high-tension 20/24 spoking change the clincher/tubular equation at all?

Wheels have very little compliance compared to tires. In the case of heavy
aero rims, that is even more true. So ride quality is determined by the
tires and tire pressure. Some say they can feel a difference between tubies
and clinchers. I've ridden both, and if there is a difference, it's very
subtle.

Are you looking for more speed? How much difference do you think these
wheels are going to make?

Art "I wouldn't buy 'em" Harris

 

[David B.]

Arthur Harris wrote:
> Wheels have very little compliance compared to tires. In the case of
heavy
> aero rims, that is even more true. So ride quality is determined by
the
> tires and tire pressure. Some say they can feel a difference between
tubies
> and clinchers. I've ridden both, and if there is a difference, it's
very
> subtle.
>
> Are you looking for more speed? How much difference do you think
these
> wheels are going to make?
>
> Art "I wouldn't buy 'em" Harris

Hi Arthur,
Thanks for replying. Your comment about vertical compliance is exactly
what initially prompted me to ask the question. Given a vertically
stiff wheel, it would intuitively seem to me that the advantages of
tubulars might be more pronounced.

I suppose I'm looking for more speed, but I'm not naive enough to
believe that it will really make much difference. Mostly I'm looking
for a different "feel". I enjoy riding different bikes for variety's
sake, and having new toys is a good motivator to get me out on the
road.

Really what I'm asking for is validation about a purchase I know I
really shouldn't make

 

[jim beam]

Arthur Harris wrote:
> "David B." wrote:
>
>>I've got an opportunity to get a pair of Bontrager "Race X Lite" wheels
>>at employee purchase price, and although I really don't "need" fancy
>>race wheels, I am definitely tempted.
>>
>>But I'm torn as to whether to get the tubular or clincher version.
>>Given that these wheels are totally impractical for me in the first
>>place, I figure that I might as well go whole hog and get tubulars. My
>>question is whether there will be any perceptible difference in ride
>>quality or cornering relative to high quality clincher tires?
>
>
>>Does the
>>fact that these are aero wheels with a relatively high rim profile and
>>high-tension 20/24 spoking change the clincher/tubular equation at all?
>
>
> Wheels have very little compliance compared to tires.

vertical maybe, but not laterally. and that doesn't factor in a tire's
transmission of shock impulse as opposed to static load deflection.

> In the case of heavy
> aero rims, that is even more true. So ride quality is determined by the
> tires and tire pressure.

not entirely true - you're repeating a jobstian over simplification.
low spoke counts /do/ make for different rides because the strength of a
wheel is a function of the material, not the spoke tension.

> Some say they can feel a difference between tubies
> and clinchers. I've ridden both, and if there is a difference, it's very
> subtle.
>
> Are you looking for more speed? How much difference do you think these
> wheels are going to make?
>
> Art "I wouldn't buy 'em" Harris
>
>
>

 

[Per Elmsäter]

David B. wrote:
> Really what I'm asking for is validation about a purchase I know I
> really shouldn't make

In that case you've already made up your mind, so go ahead and buy them for
chrissake before somebody else does

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[Tom Paterson]

From: "David B."

>I've got an opportunity to get a pair of Bontrager "Race X Lite" wheels
>at employee purchase price, and although I really don't "need" fancy
>race wheels, I am definitely tempted.

(Butting in line to respond to first paragraph)

So what is your employee purchase price on hubs-- Dura Ace/Ultegra/Campy
"whichever"-- Velocity Deep V's, Mavic CXP's, and DT butted spokes? Is it
easier for you to get 36 hole items than the guy who walks in off the street?
Got a good wheelbuilder in the shop (if needed)? Some cool colors (powder coat,
not ano on V's) available in those rims, also in ano alloy nipples which I
wouldn't use (see following). I guess you could get black or other color
spokes, too (shrug).

(Historical perspective: I just pulled out a well-used set of clinchers to put
on a fixie project. Moved the rear hub around with spacers as usual to get
chainline, and then re-centered the rim. Only one *brass* nipple suffered a
little deformation in the operation, in spite of my being out of practice.
These were built up tight in the first place, then rode hard and put away wet,
as the saying goes, no "prep" before turning nipples). DT double butts, and
when the rims wear thin (they're pretty close), I'll re-rim, using new nipples
on the old spokes which appear to be undamaged esp. on the old freewheel side.
The right-side front bearing race and cone needed to be replaced, other
bearings were fine, well worth a re-rim.

Clinchers will probably be cheaper in the long run. But maybe not by all that
much.
--TP

 

[[email protected]]

David B? writes:

>> Wheels have very little compliance compared to tires. In the case
>> of heavy aero rims, that is even more true. So ride quality is
>> determined by the tires and tire pressure. Some say they can feel a
>> difference between tubies and clinchers. I've ridden both, and if
>> there is a difference, it's very subtle.

>> Are you looking for more speed? How much difference do you think
>> these wheels are going to make?

> Thanks for replying. Your comment about vertical compliance is
> exactly what initially prompted me to ask the question. Given a
> vertically stiff wheel, it would intuitively seem to me that the
> advantages of tubulars might be more pronounced.

All bicycle wheels have essentially no vertical compliance unless the
modulus of elasticity of steel has changed lately. As has been
mentioned here on occasion, those who can feel the difference among
wheels can also feel when riding over a sheet of copier paper lying on
the road. That is the magnitude of the most extreme radial compliance
differences among wheels.

> I suppose I'm looking for more speed, but I'm not naive enough to
> believe that it will really make much difference. Mostly I'm
> looking for a different "feel". I enjoy riding different bikes for
> variety's sake, and having new toys is a good motivator to get me
> out on the road.

You're looking in the wrong place for feel. Get out and ride in
inter4sting places. That's where the feel changes significantly.

> Really what I'm asking for is validation about a purchase I know I
> really shouldn't make

If you have to do it make sure you go all the way. Get tubulars or
you'll always wonder what you may have missed. You won't forget it.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[Mike Krueger]

David B. wrote:
> I've got an opportunity to get a pair of Bontrager "Race X Lite"
wheels
> at employee purchase price, and although I really don't "need" fancy
> race wheels, I am definitely tempted.
>
> But I'm torn as to whether to get the tubular or clincher version.
> Given that these wheels are totally impractical for me in the first
> place, I figure that I might as well go whole hog and get tubulars.
My
> question is whether there will be any perceptible difference in ride
> quality or cornering relative to high quality clincher tires?

Top-quality cotton tubulars, made by Vittoria and Veloflex, as well as
others, will give you the optimum ride quality and handling, no
question. But, whether you can really feel a difference from equivalent
clinchers is subjective. The primary advantages of tubulars are higher
strength-to-weight ratio of rims, no pinch flats, a punctured tire will
stay safely on the rim, and much faster and easier tire changes on the
road. In all likelihood, you will get fewer flats with tubulars. And,
if you do puncture, there are mail-order services which will replace
the inner tube and reconstruct the tire for a reasonable fee if you
can't be bothered to do it yourself.
Given the cost of top quality clincher tires and rims these days, I
don't think tubulars are more expensive. In fact, traditional,
box-section tubular rims can be had for peanuts these days. I just
built a pair of NOS Mavic GP4's for less than $100, including new rims
and spokes.
This won't be a problem for you or other enthusiasts, but if someone is
limited to just one set of wheels, tubulars are impractical. If you
ride every day, you need a spare set with tires mounted, as it takes a
couple of days to properly glue up a tire and let the cement cure. The
gluing can be a little messy, but it gets easier with practice.

 

[David B.]

Per Elmsäter wrote:
> In that case you've already made up your mind, so go ahead and buy
them for
> chrissake before somebody else does

Well, I took the plunge...$365 including shipping and 2 pairs of
Clement Strada tubies (a favorite of our own Mr. Muzi).
<rationalization> Downright affordable for a 1500 gram wheelset!
</rationalization>

 

[Per Elmsäter]

David B. wrote:
> Per Elmsäter wrote:
>> In that case you've already made up your mind, so go ahead and buy
>> them for chrissake before somebody else does
>
> Well, I took the plunge...$365 including shipping and 2 pairs of
> Clement Strada tubies (a favorite of our own Mr. Muzi).
> <rationalization> Downright affordable for a 1500 gram wheelset!
> </rationalization>

As the old Viking saying goes. Apologies for my bad translation
"Better to hear the sound of a broken string than never to shoot an arrow"
BTW those were his famous last words ))

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[David B.]

Tom Paterson wrote:
> So what is your employee purchase price on hubs-- Dura
Ace/Ultegra/Campy
> "whichever"-- Velocity Deep V's, Mavic CXP's, and DT butted spokes?

Unfortunately, I can't get the discount on anything but the Bontragers.
Given my druthers, I'd probably go Hugi 240s/Sapim CXRay/Ambrosio
Excellence. Trouble is the hubs alone would cost me as much as the
Bontragers on special. And with my fitness level being what it is,
spending $5-600 on race wheels would be positively obscene.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:22:11 -0800, Mike Krueger wrote:

> Top-quality cotton tubulars, made by Vittoria and Veloflex, as well as
> others, will give you the optimum ride quality and handling, no
> question.

Well, actually, there is a question about that, but I don't care to get
into it.

> But, whether you can really feel a difference from equivalent
> clinchers is subjective. The primary advantages of tubulars are higher
> strength-to-weight ratio of rims, no pinch flats, a punctured tire will
> stay safely on the rim, and much faster and easier tire changes on the
> road.

OK, the strength-to weight ratio is probably real, but minor. If you
maintain proper pressure in clinchers there is no need to have pinch
flats. The stuff about the tire staying safely on the tire when flat is
plain weird. Why ride a flat tire?

> In all likelihood, you will get fewer flats with tubulars.

I disagree. I get far fewer flats with clinchers than I did with tubulars.

> And, if
> you do puncture, there are mail-order services which will replace the
> inner tube and reconstruct the tire for a reasonable fee if you can't be
> bothered to do it yourself.

Oh, well, there is an advantage. Rather than being able to repair a flat
on the side of the road, think of the convenience of mailing it away,
spending $20 per tire, and waiting a couple weeks to get it back.

> Given
the cost of top quality clincher tires and rims these days, I
> don't think tubulars are more expensive. In fact, traditional,
> box-section tubular rims can be had for peanuts these days.

This is certainly true. At swap meets, people are trying to get rid of
tubular rims. I wonder why?


--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 08:55:03 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> vertical maybe, but not laterally. and that doesn't factor in a tire's
> transmission of shock impulse as opposed to static load deflection.
>
And what about lateral deflection of the wheel affects ride quality?
I won't hazard a guess about "a tire's transmission of shock impulse as
opposed to static load deflection". How that relates to a wheel is
somewhat obscure, to say the least.

>> In the case of heavy
>> aero rims, that is even more true.

More true than what?

> not entirely true - you're repeating a jobstian over simplification. low
> spoke counts /do/ make for different rides because the strength of a
> wheel is a function of the material, not the spoke tension.

What does the "strength" of the wheel have to do with ride quality, and
how is that independent of either spoke tension or spoke count?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

David-<< But I'm torn as to whether to get the tubular or clincher version.
Given that these wheels are totally impractical for me in the first
place, I figure that I might as well go whole hog and get tubulars. My
question is whether there will be any perceptible difference in ride
quality or cornering relative to high quality clincher tires? >><BR><BR>

I say yes. The tubies will ride more comfortably(no need for extra psi for
pinch flat protection), and corner better, a lot like a radial tire on a car vs
a bias ply tire. Gluing, once learned, is no big deal.

Get a set of Vittoria or Velomax cottom tubies and you won't be disappointed.

For these very heavy rimmed wheels, tubies will help a lot.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Jobst surprises me with-<< If you have to do it make sure you go all the way.
Get tubulars or
you'll always wonder what you may have missed. You won't forget it. >><BR><BR>

Geee, this sounds like Jobst is actually recommending he try the tubulars....I
do too.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

David-<< Well, I took the plunge...$365 including shipping and 2 pairs of
Clement Strada tubies (a favorite of our own Mr. Muzi). >><BR><BR>

GGod for you..I thought you said these were expensive?

Like i tell my customers who are converting from a MTB to a road bike...you
will throw the clinchers away, will love how tubulars ride, can point to your
girly-man riding buddies that have clinchers.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Olebiker]

And while you are stopped by the side of the road changing the
inevitable flat, we gray-hairs can point at you with a knowing grin
coming from years of riding tubulars (until something better came
along), and snicker at how you have bought in to the whole tubular
fantasy. Ah well, I guess every generation has to learn for itself.

**** "been there, done that" Durbin

 

[A Muzi]

An amazingly adult David B. wrote:
> Really what I'm asking for is validation about a
purchase I know I
> really shouldn't make

If more riders were as honest, we could save a lot of
pointless blather about the magical properties of various
materials.

'rigid, yet flexible'

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

Olebiker wrote:
> And while you are stopped by the side of the road changing the
> inevitable flat, we gray-hairs can point at you with a knowing grin
> coming from years of riding tubulars (until something better came
> along), and snicker at how you have bought in to the whole tubular
> fantasy. Ah well, I guess every generation has to learn for itself.

There seems to be general agreement that tubulars are no more likely to
flat than clinchers and are perhaps less likely, and, if they do flat,
they are easier to get back on the road.

JP

 

[Michel Bernier]

There is another option, get a set of Tufo Clincher tubulars for your
clincher rims. I will be trying them this summer. Here is the site:
http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/

Mike

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David-<< But I'm torn as to whether to get the tubular or clincher
> version.
> Given that these wheels are totally impractical for me in the first
> place, I figure that I might as well go whole hog and get tubulars. My
> question is whether there will be any perceptible difference in ride
> quality or cornering relative to high quality clincher tires? >><BR><BR>
>
> I say yes. The tubies will ride more comfortably(no need for extra psi for
> pinch flat protection), and corner better, a lot like a radial tire on a
> car vs
> a bias ply tire. Gluing, once learned, is no big deal.
>
> Get a set of Vittoria or Velomax cottom tubies and you won't be
> disappointed.
>
> For these very heavy rimmed wheels, tubies will help a lot.
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"