Tubular ride quality on low spoke-count wheels?

[[email protected]]

**** Durbin writes:

> And while you are stopped by the side of the road changing the
> inevitable flat, we gray-hairs can point at you with a knowing grin
> coming from years of riding tubulars (until something better came
> along), and snicker at how you have bought into the whole tubular
> fantasy. Ah well, I guess every generation has to learn for itself.

For some of us, other appropriate comments will come to mind but in
general they will probably follow those sentiments. Ahh the good old
days. As I said, you didn't make the discovery as plainly as I did on
my first tour in the Alps with relatively steep descents with hairpin
turns close enough to make rims too hot to touch.

http://tinyurl.com/c543

> **** "been there, done that" Durbin

Me too!

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:43:21 -0800, SocSecTrainWreck wrote:

>
> Olebiker wrote:
>> And while you are stopped by the side of the road changing the
>> inevitable flat, we gray-hairs can point at you with a knowing grin
>> coming from years of riding tubulars (until something better came
>> along), and snicker at how you have bought in to the whole tubular
>> fantasy. Ah well, I guess every generation has to learn for itself.
>
> There seems to be general agreement that tubulars are no more likely to
> flat than clinchers and are perhaps less likely, and, if they do flat,
> they are easier to get back on the road.

Yeah. Right. You just mail the tire in to have someone fix it. Some of
us rode tubulars long enough to have that second flat in one ride etched
into our memories. Since for most of us, that was before cellphones, it
was a long walk home.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You
_`\(,_ | soon find out the pig likes it!
(_)/ (_) |

 

[Olebiker]

That was not my experience. I learned to listen to my own experience
rather than what someone told me was true.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

SocSec-<< There seems to be general agreement that tubulars are no more likely
to
flat than clinchers and are perhaps less likely, and, if they do flat,
they are easier to get back on the road. >><BR><BR>

I pull up the BS flag. What about the design of the tubular tire, a standard
tube sew into a casing, makes it more prone to flats?

Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than tubies,
will flat far more often then tubulars, all things being equal. Jobst talks
about myth and lore, how about putting aside BS and black magic about tubies
and actually tell of first hand knowledge.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

David-<< Yeah. Right. You just mail the tire in to have someone fix it. Some
of
us rode tubulars long enough to have that second flat in one ride etched
into our memories. Since for most of us, that was before cellphones, it
was a long walk home. >><BR><BR>

I say once again. If you had the 'skill' to ride tubies, why didn't you develop
the 'skill' to repair them? NOT brain science or rocket surgery or black magic.


As for two flats on one ride, I have had this twice in 20 years(didn't hardly
scar me at all). And gee, like water, there are phones really pretty much
everywhere in those dark days. I know my hands were cold and turning the hand
crank was tough, and sometimes the lady operator on the other end was ******
off and I know my wife was out feedin' the chickens, but......
I guess you never had anything else that stranded you, good thing otherwise
you would give up cycling all together.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[[email protected]]

What I've learned from all the discussions of tubular tires on rbt:

1. Jobst rode in the Alps on 'em a long time ago and still hates 'em.
2. Peter has flatted two of 'em on a single ride twice in 20 years and
still likes 'em.

Greg Hall

 

[David Damerell]

begin quoting Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>:
>SocSec:
>>There seems to be general agreement that tubulars are no more likely to
>>flat than clinchers and are perhaps less likely, and, if they do flat,
>>they are easier to get back on the road.
>I pull up the BS flag. What about the design of the tubular tire, a standard
>tube sew into a casing, makes it more prone to flats?

Free hint; he agrees with you. If you read the quoted text instead of
mangling it you'd know that.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
Today is First Monday, February.

 

[Tom Paterson]

From: vecchio

(OOO snippage)
>Jobst talksabout myth and lore, how about putting aside BS and black magic
>about tubiesand actually tell of first hand >knowledge.

Would riding home on someone else's sewup spare after slicing a clincher on a
rock to where it boot count?

>Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than
>tubies,will flat far more often then >tubulars, all things being equal.

"Horses for courses". (YMMV dept.): For the rocky road rides of yesteryear (may
they return), a fresh set of sewups (CG's, of course) please. Rainy commuting?
Clinchers, cheap ones that come off easy. Etc., etc. No loyalty oaths required;
better to have two or three sets (for different weight/size/use/cost options)
of each ready to ride. IMHO of course. --TP

 

[Joe Riel]

[email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) writes:

> Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than tubies,
> will flat far more often then tubulars, all things being equal.

Not true unless pinch flats cause a majority of the flats on a clincher.
When I first started riding I had a fair number of pinch flats, until
I learned to keep the tires pumped up. Now they are a rare occurrence;
in fact, I cannot recall the last time I had a pinch flat.

Joe

 

[Mike Krueger]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:22:11 -0800, Mike Krueger wrote:
>
> > Top-quality cotton tubulars, made by Vittoria and Veloflex, as well
as
> > others, will give you the optimum ride quality and handling, no
> > question.
>
> Well, actually, there is a question about that, but I don't care to
get
> into it.

Your point is?

> > But, whether you can really feel a difference from equivalent
> > clinchers is subjective. The primary advantages of tubulars are
higher
> > strength-to-weight ratio of rims, no pinch flats, a punctured tire
will
> > stay safely on the rim, and much faster and easier tire changes on
the
> > road.
>
> OK, the strength-to weight ratio is probably real, but minor. If you
> maintain proper pressure in clinchers there is no need to have pinch
> flats. The stuff about the tire staying safely on the tire when flat
is
> plain weird. Why ride a flat tire?

You missed the point. A flat clincher can separate from the rim,
causing a crash. Or the sharp edge of the rim just rolls over it,
often cutting the sidewall and ruining the tire.
I weigh 180 lbs, and, for comfort, ride with 95psi in my front tire.
Hard to do on clinchers without risking pinch flats.

> > In all likelihood, you will get fewer flats with tubulars.
>
> I disagree. I get far fewer flats with clinchers than I did with
tubulars.

You are either very lucky or you must have been riding **** tubulars.

> > And, if
> > you do puncture, there are mail-order services which will replace
the
> > inner tube and reconstruct the tire for a reasonable fee if you
can't be
> > bothered to do it yourself.
>
> Oh, well, there is an advantage. Rather than being able to repair a
flat
> on the side of the road, think of the convenience of mailing it away,
> spending $20 per tire, and waiting a couple weeks to get it back.

No need to wait, I carry a spare tire. Come on one of my weekend club
rides, and see who makes everyone stop and stand around longer because
of a flat, the tubular guys or the clincher guys.

> > Given
> the cost of top quality clincher tires and rims these days, I
> > don't think tubulars are more expensive. In fact, traditional,
> > box-section tubular rims can be had for peanuts these days.
>
> This is certainly true. At swap meets, people are trying to get rid
of
> tubular rims. I wonder why?

Who cares? As long as I can buy NOS tubular rims for $15 each, I'll
keep riding them.

 

[[email protected]]

Joe Riel writes:

>> Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER
>> than tubies, will flat far more often then tubulars, all things
>> being equal.

> Not true unless pinch flats cause a majority of the flats on a
> clincher. When I first started riding I had a fair number of pinch
> flats, until I learned to keep the tires pumped up. Now they are a
> rare occurrence; in fact, I cannot recall the last time I had a
> pinch flat.

It was in the days of tubulars-only in the 1960's and 70's during
Wednesday evening tire patch sessions for local bikies at my place
that the term snakebite was coined. We had plenty of them and riders
did not recognize that there were two holes that needed to be patched
rather than one. Consider that there even was a tire patch evening
for the arcane art of re-tubing, booting, and patching tubulars. That
in itself ought to be a sign that things were not as they should be.

The story that tubulars do not snake bite is pure fluff. The reason
there may be fewer snake bites is that tubular riders today don't ride
dirt backroads as a rule and that's where most of our experience with
them arose. Latex can take a bit more compression when bottoming but
not significantly. Not enough to make more than a small statistical
difference.

The FAQ items on tubular repair and manufacture are relics of those
times, and I am glad to have left them behind. My well worn sets of
tubular wheels with Mavic rims and epoxy insulator strips have been
resting and gathering dust ever since.

We don't need no steenkin tire patch evenings no more!

....and we don't need to pump tires before every ride.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-folding.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/making-tubulars.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/mounting-tubulars.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rear-flats.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/snakebites.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-fables.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-repair.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/wiping.html

etc...

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Joe Riel wrote:

> [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) writes:
>
>> Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than
>> tubies, will flat far more often then tubulars, all things being equal.
>
> Not true unless pinch flats cause a majority of the flats on a clincher.
> When I first started riding I had a fair number of pinch flats, until
> I learned to keep the tires pumped up. Now they are a rare occurrence;
> in fact, I cannot recall the last time I had a pinch flat.

Indeed; my only pinch flat occurred about 15 years ago, when I ran into a
deep pot hole in the dark with no lights and insufficiently inflated tires.

I got a nice big dent in the rim, too...

I've had many flats due to other causes since then, including 3 during a
single 200km brevet (one was due to one of those "pre-glued" patches coming
loose).

Nearly all my flats are due to metal garbage such as bits of wire from
truck tires, and the occasional glass shard.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Tip the world over on its side and everything loose will land in Los Angeles.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Mike Krueger wrote:

>> I disagree. I get far fewer flats with clinchers than I did with
>> tubulars.
>
> You are either very lucky or you must have been riding **** tubulars.

Would you care to explain what it is about "non-****" tubulars that
prevents flats?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Tip the world over on its side and everything loose will land in Los Angeles.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Krueger writes:

>>> Top-quality cotton tubulars, made by Vittoria and Veloflex, as
>>> well as others, will give you the optimum ride quality and
>>> handling, no question.

>> Well, actually, there is a question about that, but I don't care to
>> get into it.

> Your point is?

>>> But, whether you can really feel a difference from equivalent
>>> clinchers is subjective. The primary advantages of tubulars are
>>> higher strength-to-weight ratio of rims, no pinch flats, a
>>> punctured tire will stay safely on the rim, and much faster and
>>> easier tire changes on the road.

>> OK, the strength-to weight ratio is probably real, but minor. If
>> you maintain proper pressure in clinchers there is no need to have
>> pinch flats. The stuff about the tire staying safely on the tire
>> when flat is plain weird. Why ride a flat tire?

> You missed the point. A flat clincher can separate from the rim,
> causing a crash. Or the sharp edge of the rim just rolls over it,
> often cutting the sidewall and ruining the tire. I weigh 180 lbs,
> and, for comfort, ride with 95psi in my front tire. Hard to do on
> clinchers without risking pinch flats.

So what makes you think this doesn't work with clinchers. I always
ride with between 90-100 psi over all sorts of terrain with 25mm cross
section clinchers.

>>> In all likelihood, you will get fewer flats with tubulars.

>> I disagree. I get far fewer flats with clinchers than I did with
>> tubulars.

> You are either very lucky or you must have been riding **** tubulars.

I'll second that. I've had several tours in the Alps of more than
2000 miles never pumping a tire. That was not the case with tubulars
because they require daily pumping and because I had more flats.

>>> And, if you do puncture, there are mail-order services which will
>>> replace the inner tube and reconstruct the tire for a reasonable
>>> fee if you can't be bothered to do it yourself.

>> Oh, well, there is an advantage. Rather than being able to repair
>> a flat on the side of the road, think of the convenience of mailing
>> it away, spending $20 per tire, and waiting a couple weeks to get
>> it back.

> No need to wait, I carry a spare tire. Come on one of my weekend
> club rides, and see who makes everyone stop and stand around longer
> because of a flat, the tubular guys or the clincher guys.

Oh forbid, what a pain. I don't see any difference between that and
the tubular use. You don't have to patch the tube on the scene
anyway, and if you have friends, one will patch that tube while you
replace the tube with a spare. This is all so contrived.

>>> Given the cost of top quality clincher tires and rims these days,
>>> I don't think tubulars are more expensive. In fact, traditional,
>>> box-section tubular rims can be had for peanuts these days.

>> This is certainly true. At swap meets, people are trying to get
>> rid of tubular rims. I wonder why?

> Who cares? As long as I can buy NOS tubular rims for $15 each, I'll
> keep riding them.

Do that.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[David B.]

Michel Bernier wrote:
> There is another option, get a set of Tufo Clincher tubulars for your

> clincher rims. I will be trying them this summer. Here is the site:
> http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/
>

"Tubular clinchers" are one option I researched...I never found a
single positive comment about them, though, and a lot of complaints.
No weight savings in either the tire or rim, and apparently very hard
to mount.

 

[Mike Krueger]

[email protected] wrote:

> I've had several tours in the Alps of more than
> 2000 miles never pumping a tire. That was not the case with tubulars
> because they require daily pumping and because I had more flats.

A tubular tire with a butyl tube, such as those made by Continental,
need not be pumped up any more frequently than a clincher tire with a
similar butyl tube. Vittoria tubulars use a latex inner tube which does
have to be pumped up every day, but that is not a knock against
tubulars in general.
And, say what you will, you are not going to convince me that tubulars
are *more* prone to flats than clinchers. My own experience is quite to
the contrary.

> You don't have to patch the tube on the scene
> anyway, and if you have friends, one will patch that tube while you
> replace the tube with a spare. This is all so contrived.

I said it is somewhat faster to replace a punctured tubular with a
pre-glued spare while all your buddies are standing around waiting than
to replace the inner tube on a clincher tire, checking the casing for
thorns, etc. Nothing contrived about it.

 

[Olebiker]

>Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than
tubies,
>will flat far more often then tubulars, all things being equal. Jobst
talks
>about myth and lore, how about putting aside BS and black magic about
tubies
>and actually tell of first hand knowledge.

OK, let's talk about first hand experience. I weigh more than 200
pounds, have been riding clinchers since the late 80s and have NEVER
had a pinch flat on a road bike. The argument about pinch flats is a
straw man.

**** Durbin

 

[[email protected]]

On 7 Feb 2005 14:02:40 -0800, "Olebiker" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than
>tubies,
>>will flat far more often then tubulars, all things being equal. Jobst
>talks
>>about myth and lore, how about putting aside BS and black magic about
>tubies
>>and actually tell of first hand knowledge.
>
>OK, let's talk about first hand experience. I weigh more than 200
>pounds, have been riding clinchers since the late 80s and have NEVER
>had a pinch flat on a road bike. The argument about pinch flats is a
>straw man.
>
>**** Durbin

Dear ****,

I'm a svelte 195 pounds and use 120 to 125 psi on 700c x
26mm Kevlar bead Kevlar belt clincher tires.

For the first week, I did a careful low-speed hop to get up
onto the nice new concrete nature trail along the Arkansas
River--the path was elevated four inches above the ground
and had a sharp edge.

Then I got careless. The resulting pinch flat gave me an
excuse to stop and build a ramp out of the nearby rubble as
noble as those used to construct the pyramids.

A year later, my handsome slab of broken asphalt still rests
firmly on its bed of dirt and allows safe access to the
concrete path.

Up the path are two spots where cottonwood roots have
cracked the concrete slabs. Heading upstream, bicycles fly
off the edge of smooth ramps into the air without much
trouble. Heading downstream, people on clinchers often
suffer pinch flats when they hit the wrong side of these
unplanned ramps, which are hard to see in the shadows of the
trees.

I don't know if a tubular would have resisted such sharp
angles, but I do know that clinchers don't. Hell, I've had a
pinch flat when I forgot to unweight coming into my
driveway, where a mighty inch-high ledge lurks down in the
deep road gutter.

Carl Fogel

 

[Tom Sherman]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> SocSec-<< There seems to be general agreement that tubulars are no more likely
> to
> flat than clinchers and are perhaps less likely, and, if they do flat,
> they are easier to get back on the road. >><BR><BR>
>
> I pull up the BS flag. What about the design of the tubular tire, a standard
> tube sew into a casing, makes it more prone to flats?
>
> Clinchers, with the possibility of pinch flats being MUCH HIGHER than tubies,
> will flat far more often then tubulars, all things being equal. Jobst talks
> about myth and lore, how about putting aside BS and black magic about tubies
> and actually tell of first hand knowledge.

With reasonable tire widths and inflation pressures, pinch flats are not
going to happen, even with a little ISO 305-mm front wheel that goes
deeper into potholes than a larger wheel would.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Krueger <[email protected]> writes:

>> I've had several tours in the Alps of more than 2000 miles never
>> pumping a tire. That was not the case with tubulars because they
>> require daily pumping and because I had more flats.

> A tubular tire with a butyl tube, such as those made by Continental,
> need not be pumped up any more frequently than a clincher tire with
> a similar butyl tube. Vittoria tubulars use a latex inner tube which
> does have to be pumped up every day, but that is not a knock against
> tubulars in general.

Those butyl tubes are not much thicker than latex tubes and leak down
in a few days instead of in one day.

> And, say what you will, you are not going to convince me that
> tubulars are *more* prone to flats than clinchers. My own
> experience is quite to the contrary.

You are on the short end of tubular proponents who regularly point out
their "supple" and comfortable ride due mainly to their thin tread and
sidewalls. Of course, you must be aware that this makes them more
puncture prone because it takes a smaller piece of glass to penetrate
and a lesser slash to rupture. I've been through all that a few times
in practice and here in the newsgroup.

What was interesting is the latex leaks slower in cold weather so that
on cold days we could skip pumping every other day, but I'd rather
have warm comfortable weather that ride latex tubes. Just think,
latex tubes were offered for clinchers as a big bonus... for awhile.
I guess they let the air out of that one pretty quickly.

>>>> Oh, well, there is an advantage. Rather than being able to
>>>> repair a flat on the side of the road, think of the convenience
>>>> of mailing it away, spending $20 per tire, and waiting a couple
>>>> weeks to get it back.

>>> No need to wait, I carry a spare tire. Come on one of my weekend
>>> club rides, and see who makes everyone stop and stand around
>>> longer because of a flat, the tubular guys or the clincher guys.

>> Oh forbid, what a pain. I don't see any difference between that
>> and the tubular use. You don't have to patch the tube on the scene
>> anyway, and if you have friends, one will patch that tube while you
>> replace the tube with a spare. This is all so contrived.

> I said it is somewhat faster to replace a punctured tubular with a
> pre-glued spare while all your buddies are standing around waiting than
> to replace the inner tube on a clincher tire, checking the casing for
> thorns, etc. Nothing contrived about it.

What kind of buddies are these that stand around and don't give a
damn? As I said, putting a new tube in a tire takes no longer than to
pull a tubular off the rim and put on another. Of course macho guys
pretend that the flat will fix itself once back home.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]