Turbo Trainer advice needed

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Adam Lipscombe, Feb 4, 2003.

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  1. Folks,

    I am looking for a turbo trainer and have read conflicting reports about which is the best type,
    magnetic or fluid?

    My friends says fluid TT's are the way to go, others say they is too heavy and only suitable for
    hill-climb training.

    Any opinions? Recomendations on a good make? (I want to get a decent model, but not spend the earth)

    TIA - Adam
     
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  2. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >Folks, I am looking for a turbo trainer and have read conflicting reports about which is the best
    >type, magnetic or fluid? My friends says fluid TT's are the way to go, others say they is too heavy
    >and only suitable for hill-climb training. Any opinions? Recomendations on a good make? (I want to
    >get a decent model, but not spend the earth)

    IIRC, fluid resistance increases as you go faster, just like riding in the real world. Mag
    resistance is constant.
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     
  3. Eatmorepies

    Eatmorepies Guest

    > says...
    > >Folks, I am looking for a turbo trainer and have read conflicting reports about which is the best
    > >type, magnetic or fluid? My friends says fluid TT's are the way to go, others say they is too
    heavy
    > >and only suitable for hill-climb training. Any opinions? Recomendations on a good make? (I want
    > >to get a decent model, but not
    spend
    > >the earth)
    >
    > IIRC, fluid resistance increases as you go faster, just like riding in the real world. Mag
    > resistance is constant.
    > -----------------
    Not sure about that. If mag resistance works by spinning a disc through a magnetic field then
    doubling the disc speed will double the induced voltage and pretty much double the induced current.
    This current flows in a direction that causes a force in opposition to the change inducing it. So
    doubling the induced current will double the resisistive force.

    As work done = force x distance and power = work done/time

    You get power = (force x distance)/time.

    Consider doubling your cadence;

    In any given time interval you will double your distance, the force of opposition has also doubled.
    This will double double the power.

    Doubling cadence requires you to work 4 times harder.

    Assuming mag resiatnce works on the generator principle.

    John

    p.s. aerodynamic drag increases in the same way in the real world.
     
  4. Dave Cook

    Dave Cook Guest

    I use a Travel-Trac 2000 fluid trainer and like it as much as it is possible to like such a thing.
    Best of all is that it is quieter than the air trainer I built. I can watch TV or listen to music
    without the volume maxxed.

    "Adam Lipscombe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Folks,
    >
    > I am looking for a turbo trainer and have read conflicting reports about which is the best type,
    > magnetic or fluid?
    >
    > My friends says fluid TT's are the way to go, others say they is too heavy and only suitable for
    > hill-climb training.
    >
    > Any opinions? Recomendations on a good make? (I want to get a decent model, but not
    spend
    > the earth)
    >
    >
    > TIA - Adam
    >
    >
    >
     
  5. Dianne_1234

    Dianne_1234 Guest

    The question of trainers sometimes comes up on the power list (topica.com/wattage, I think).

    There is a page referenced in some posts there that shows speed-to-power curves for various
    trainers. Link: http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

    Basically, any trainer that can reach the power you wish to train at within the speed range you can
    get with your gears is okay. The difficult case is if you try to simulate "hill climbing", where
    resistance must be high, but cadence (and thus speed) is typically low.

    Generally, they all get harder with increasing speed. Some more steely than others. The mag ones are
    generally not as steep, and some with switches don't have a consistent rate of increase.

    There is argument whether matching "real life" is a benefit. Most prefer it, but many can't say why.

    "Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > says...
    > > >Folks, I am looking for a turbo trainer and have read conflicting reports about which is the
    > > >best type, magnetic or fluid? My friends says fluid TT's are the way to go, others say they
    > > >is too
    > heavy
    > > >and only suitable for hill-climb training. Any opinions? Recomendations on a good make? (I want
    > > >to get a decent model, but not
    > spend
    > > >the earth)
    > >
    > > IIRC, fluid resistance increases as you go faster, just like riding in the real world. Mag
    > > resistance is constant.
    > > -----------------
    > Not sure about that. If mag resistance works by spinning a disc through a magnetic field then
    > doubling the disc speed will double the induced voltage and pretty much double the induced
    > current. This current flows in a direction that causes a force in opposition to the change
    > inducing it. So doubling the induced current will double the resisistive force.
    >
    > As work done = force x distance and power = work done/time
    >
    > You get power = (force x distance)/time.
    >
    > Consider doubling your cadence;
    >
    > In any given time interval you will double your distance, the force of opposition has also
    > doubled. This will double double the power.
    >
    > Doubling cadence requires you to work 4 times harder.
    >
    > Assuming mag resiatnce works on the generator principle.
    >
    > John
    >
    > p.s. aerodynamic drag increases in the same way in the real world.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Guest

    I have an Elite Travel Fluid for sale if you are interested? Have only used it twice as now I
    commute every day. It was bloody cold this morning on the way in!!

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  7. "Adam Lipscombe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Folks,
    >
    > I am looking for a turbo trainer and have read conflicting reports about which is the best type,
    > magnetic or fluid?
    >
    > My friends says fluid TT's are the way to go, others say they is too heavy and only suitable for
    > hill-climb training.
    >
    > Any opinions? Recomendations on a good make? (I want to get a decent model, but not spend
    > the earth)
    >
    >
    > TIA - Adam

    I have two turbo trainers. One is a Cateye Cyclosimulator (popularly known as the PsychoStimulator
    :) ). This is the turbo I do serious training on. It has a bit more to occupy the brain, in terms
    of speed, power, etc. It has a fan, which increases the effort/unit speed as speed increases, and a
    magnetic load to simulate gradient. The tyre roller is spring loaded against the tyre, so it copes
    with slightly non-round wheels quite well. A nice machine.

    The other one I have is a budget Tacx turbo, bough principally to take to races for warming up. This
    one has a magnetic load on it. The biggest downside is that the roller isn't sprung against the
    tyre, and it seems to me that this tends to make the pedalling action quite choppy.

    Other than those observations, for serious training you definitely need something that will let you
    adjust the resistance. Fluid trainers seem popular among my clubmates.

    Oh, and figure out some way to keep the sheets of sweat off the bike!

    Robert
     
  8. Dianne_1234

    Dianne_1234 Guest

    The mags I've measured are a waste of time if you want to train at high power (or need moderate
    power at low speed). Compared to wind or fluid trainers I've measured, mags just don't generate
    that much resistance, and they take some fairly high speed to generate the moderate resistance they
    *do* reach.

    If you just want to do "grandma" work outs, a mag unit is fine. Or just get rollers :)

    http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

    [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >Not sure about that. If mag resistance works by spinning a disc through a magnetic field then
    > >doubling the disc speed will double the induced voltage and pretty much double the induced
    > >current. This current flows in a direction that causes a force in opposition to the change
    > >inducing it. So doubling the induced current will double the resisistive force.
    >
    > This topic was addressed extensively in a thread last year. I did some measurements using my
    > PowerTap of the drag of my Minora Mag trainer at various speeds.
    >
    > While it is not power vs speed is not quite linear, it is quite close to linear indicating that
    > the drag is nearly constant. Sometime late in the thread, Andrew Coggan pointed out that Chet Kyle
    > had some tests and gotten the same results. There was an explanation of the reason for this which
    > I have forgotten, some sort of saturation+thermal equilibrium.
    >
    > Regarding simulation of climbing vs flat:
    >
    > Climbing, the retarding force is approximately constant, at speed on the flat is is higher order.
    >
    > The one thing that no trainer can simulate (or at least no trainer I know of) is the inertial
    > effects. In my view this is what really makes the feel of pedalling on the road. When you push on
    > the pedals on the road, you have an inertial resistance to accelleration which is huge,
    > essentially a function of your mass and the bicycles mass. If you push twice as hard, your
    > increase your speed twice as fast, which is still not a big differential in velocity.
    >
    > But on a trainer, there is not mass so a hard push spins everything up in but a second or two.
    >
    > IN my view, that inertial resistance to acceleration is the first order characteric of pedalling a
    > bicycle and simulating the mass of 150 lbs (actually
    > 4.66 slugs) or more of a rider and bike is really impossible.
    >
    > One could use a heavy rear wheel, but it would have to be very heavy because the inertia a wheel
    > going the velocity of interest with all the mass at the edge would have to have the same mass as
    > the bike/rider combination.
    >
    > Bottomline: Just get a mag trainer. THey are cheap, they are quiet and they are reliable.
    >
    > Jon Isaacs
     
  9. Dianne_1234

    Dianne_1234 Guest

    [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >The mags I've measured are a waste of time if you want to train at high power (or need moderate
    > >power at low speed).
    >
    > This morning it just so happened that someone (Damon Rinard) had Emailed me about this very issue.
    > So, before leaving for work, I put my bike with the Powertap on my Mag trainer and would it up to
    > see how much power I could put out. Unfortunately the tire was slipping but I still managed 1225
    > watts, not too bad for a maximum effort with no warm up.

    Wow! That's pretty cool! What model mag trainer is it?

    On various wind and fluid trainers I've tried I've seen about 400W regularly, but only about
    900W maximum.

    Also, what RPM did you have to spin to make that kind of power?

    > So, I guess if you need to train at levels higher than probably 1000 watts for extended periods of
    > time, a mag trainer may not work for you.

    The two mag trainers I've tried I couldn't reach 400W no matter fast I went (in one case over
    90 km/h!).

    The main problem is when I am trying to simulate hills, which not everyone might want to do. If I'm
    standing for several minutes, my speed (rpm) is limited. (That's true for me on long climbs on the
    road, too.) That's when the mag units I've tried can't generate the resistance that simulates the
    hills like I want it to, even in my biggest gear.

    > >If you just want to do "grandma" work outs, a mag unit is fine. Or just get rollers :)
    >
    > My gramma always had a hard time maintaining more than 500 watts for more than an hour or two. :)

    LOL! Was her name Linda Armstrong? ;-)

    > jon isaacs
     
  10. "dianne_1234" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > The two mag trainers I've tried I couldn't reach 400W no matter fast I went (in one case over
    > 90 km/h!).
    >
    With the Tacx Cycloforce Swing mag trainer you can reach about 400 W at a cadence of 50 depending on
    your gearing of course. Max is maybe 900 W.

    I use this trainer mainly because I want to get better at climbing hills.

    --
    Replace the dots to reply

    Perre
     
  11. lisated

    lisated Guest

    [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote:

    > This morning it just so happened that someone (Damon Rinard) had Emailed me about this very issue.
    > So, before leaving for work, I put my bike with the Powertap on my Mag trainer and would it up to
    > see how much power I could put out. Unfortunately the tire was slipping but I still managed 1225
    > watts, not too bad for a maximum effort with no warm up.

    Yikes, that's 1.63 horsepower.

    Jon, I don't think that I have ever said anything insulting to you, but in the offchance that I
    have, please accept my humble apologies.

    Ted Bennett
     
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