twice in a day

[bryanquinn]

Can someone explain to me the guidelines for training both in the morning and then in the evening?

I.E. does one do this on a day where they don't ride hard in the a.m. then in the evening?

Do you you ride at a moderate pace in morn then moderate in evening?

Is there a certain percentage of miles done in the evening according to what was done in the am?

and so on.

I want to increase my performance this way but don't want to over do it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Can someone explain to me the guidelines for training both in the morning and then in the evening?....

The guidelines are simple, the application to your specific situation is less simple and why coaches are worth what they charge. But basically you want to:

- Get enough quality work in during both workouts to justify the twice a day routine
- Recover well enough from the morning session to be able to maintain quality for the evening session (post exercise refueling during the critical half hour is key here)
- Recover well enough and quickly enough from the evening session to carry out your planned workout(s) the following day (again, critical half hour glycogen replenishment is key).
- Lay out a daily, weekly and longer term plan that targets specific fitness goals.
- Schedule your morning vs. evening sessions in a way that lets you stick to your plan and target your specific goals. A second session that degrades into junk miles is of little training value and may reduce the quality of subsequent sessions.

Anyway when I do doubles I tend to target the harder workout in the morning and the easier in the evening. So it might be VO2 Max work in five minute repeats in the AM and L4 or SST work in 20 to 30 minute blocks in the evening. Or the evening might be an hour of Tempo/low SST riding to target solid sustainable metabolic fitness without being too tough mentally or physically. But it depends a lot on what the following day looks like and where I am in my season.

Don't lose sight of the big picture and attempt to load up too many double or other back to back intense sessions and burn out or drop other workouts down into junk mileage territory because you're too tired or mentally fried from intense work.

Laying out a good schedule with or without doubles is part science and part art and there's no "one size fits all" answer. Again, it's where a good coach can be worth their weight in gold. If you go the self coached route then at least pay attention to your larger goals and pay close attention to your ability to recover from double workout sessions to make sure they help more than they hurt.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[bryanquinn]

Dave,
Thank you for your response.
It sounds like this could be more difficult than I imagined.
As of right now I am just trying to increase my mileage but doing so with some form of structure. I.E. Fast group ride at least one day a week, normally Sat.
A tempo ride on Sun. staying at the higher end of my aerobic H.R. Easy on mon and Tues.
A little more difficult on wed. and easier on Thurs. (or maybe resting) then light spinning on fri. just to keep the legs moving.
A friend of mine is starting to do splits and he is already some what stronger than me and I just don't want to be left behind. I'd like to be able to continue to ride at a level that is close to his.
I am continuing to see improvements in my fitness thus far and I am happy with the results.
My H.R. is continuing to drop during levels of high intensity work outs but I am normally pretty tired after my Saturday ride and basicly just rest the rest of the day. I would like to reach the point that I can do other activities after this kind of work out.
I have increased my protien intake and always use endurox R4 post work out.
Thanks again for your input and as I can't afford a personal coach right now I will have to self train and try to learn as much as possible from more seasoned riders like yourself.

 

[Steve_B]

I want to increase my performance this way but don't want to over do it.

Just be careful about acquiring too much training load. You have to come up for air every so often and I wouldn't plan on making twice a day a permanent fixture in your routine. For a few weeks or months perhaps but cut yourself some slack at other times.

When you lose interest in the bike for days in a row, you know you've gone too far.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...A friend of mine is starting to do splits and he is already some what stronger than me and I just don't want to be left behind. I'd like to be able to continue to ride at a level that is close to his....

The best reason to do split workouts is to stretch limited time and to a lesser degree get some recovery between harder efforts so that you can maintain good focus and quality. If you have the time to do one good workout that hits your intensity and duration goals then there's not a lot of "magic" to doubles. But if you're training time is limited and you can get some morning time and some evening time then splits can work but they're not magic and often not better than just doing the appropriate workout in one effort. For one thing double workouts mean your workouts come closer together and recovery requires more attention, plus you spend more time getting in and out of your bike clothes, showering, washing bike shorts, etc. IOW, if you've got the schedule just do one solid workout targeting specific needs, consider doubles if your schedule demands it and then cautiously as Steve suggests.

It sounds to me like you could make more progress by focusing your workouts a bit better. The long Tempo ride sounds good assuming you hold good focus and don't let it turn into LSD mileage. The group ride isn't my favorite from a fitness standpoint but they can be real useful for learning pack riding skills and getting some speed work but from a pure fitness standpoint they're often not all that great. Your other workouts sound a bit vague. Are you doing any Threshold work as in 2x20s or perhaps 30 to 45 minute steady hard efforts? Do you schedule any SST or VO2 Max work? If you're racing do you do any dedicated sprint days?

I'm not suggesting that you need to do any or all of these, but you'll make the most progress if you identify your weaknesses and plan your training to address those weaknesses. Based on your statement about your friend and wanting to at least stay with him you sound like a good candidate for SST work and some steady long intervals in the 20+ minute range to build sustainable power. Search these forums for SST, FTP, L4, L5, Threshold, VO2 Max and other words like that. There's a lot of good info here and some less than great advice but if you're going the self coached route it pays to learn as much as you can. I suspect you can more than make up for your friend's double workouts by focusing your own efforts and working specific weaknesses.

Bottom line, train with a plan, start each training ride with a specific goal in mind and avoid junk miles.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[Alex Simmons]

The guidelines are simple, the application to your specific situation is less simple and why coaches are worth what they charge. But basically you want to:

- Get enough quality work in during both workouts to justify the twice a day routine
- Recover well enough from the morning session to be able to maintain quality for the evening session (post exercise refueling during the critical half hour is key here)
- Recover well enough and quickly enough from the evening session to carry out your planned workout(s) the following day (again, critical half hour glycogen replenishment is key).
- Lay out a daily, weekly and longer term plan that targets specific fitness goals.
- Schedule your morning vs. evening sessions in a way that lets you stick to your plan and target your specific goals. A second session that degrades into junk miles is of little training value and may reduce the quality of subsequent sessions.

Anyway when I do doubles I tend to target the harder workout in the morning and the easier in the evening. So it might be VO2 Max work in five minute repeats in the AM and L4 or SST work in 20 to 30 minute blocks in the evening. Or the evening might be an hour of Tempo/low SST riding to target solid sustainable metabolic fitness without being too tough mentally or physically. But it depends a lot on what the following day looks like and where I am in my season.

Don't lose sight of the big picture and attempt to load up too many double or other back to back intense sessions and burn out or drop other workouts down into junk mileage territory because you're too tired or mentally fried from intense work.

Laying out a good schedule with or without doubles is part science and part art and there's no "one size fits all" answer. Again, it's where a good coach can be worth their weight in gold. If you go the self coached route then at least pay attention to your larger goals and pay close attention to your ability to recover from double workout sessions to make sure they help more than they hurt.

Good luck,
-Dave

Just to add to dave's comments-

I would typically only prescribe 2 a day when a rider's schedule means they don't have sufficient time in any single session to enable the total desired training to happen for the week/block. That is not uncommon for souls with many other time commitments.

Sometimes it comes about for other reasons, such as when ride venues are available (like a velodrome only open in the evening).

Nevertheless, it may be better to look at the intensity of a ride given limited ride windows than to simply add durarion with a 2nd session but it does depend at what stage of the training cycle you are in as to what end of the volume-intensity mix is right.


To make it easy - if riding the extra session inhibits your ability to train well in other sessions (on the following days and weeks), then there's your answer.

 

[bryanquinn]

Thanks Dave, Allan, and Steve,
At present I have ample time to do a good work out in the morning allowing me to maintain good focus and quality.
My tempo rides on Sunday pretty much stay at 75-85% of my max HR for at least 30 miles.
My group ride on Sat. gives me the opportunity to see how I have progressed against other riders also giving me the chance to practice my sprinting abilities and chase abilities. I also like to sometimes drop back and pick up slower riders and bring them back to the group. This ride is about 27 miles long.
I have Troy Jacobson's spinervals 5.0 mental toughness dvd that is close to 1.5 hrs long and I try to do that at least once a week. I think this might be where the 2x20s come in if I'm understanding you to mean, 2min. hard effort then break and repeat for 20min.
I'm not sure what my VO2 max is so I can't do that work out and if by SST you mean sweet spot training I don't think so as that term is new to me.
I think my biggest weakness lyes in my head. I also get cold sores a lot and these can set me back for 5 to 7 days at a time. If you've never had one it's like getting a 5 day flu. It kind of breaks my concentration for a few days.
I'm just getting over a bout of it. I rode a hard group ride yesterday and wanted to ride today but I am wondering if I should just rest because I feel a little weak.
The reason I need to be able to ride with my friend is because he helps keep me motivated.
Thanks for responding to all of you.
Bryan