Tyler Innocent?

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by bobke, Apr 17, 2005.

  1. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    You know it is funny that you say that because I was seriously looking forward to seeing an IMAX movie with cycling as the subject... hopefully they still go through with it. But yeah it would kind of suck to have chosen the american golden boy nice as can be to be your subject, then to have it be totally tainted before ever even reaching release...ooops!
     


  2. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    RD,

    Yes, TH maintained that he was innocent from day one.
    I read soemwhere that his wife said that they have forked out hundreds of thousands trying to defend him and that fans were donating money on line to
    help him fund his defence.
    TH also said that he would never jeporadise his wife and his future by doping.

    Obviously his fans will be upset with this outcome.
    But it is a good day for the sport, I think.
    I don't want to kick the man while is down - but to me the state of the sport is what this whole drugs issue is really about.
     
  3. Roadrash Dunc

    Roadrash Dunc New Member

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    Limerick i dont think we have always agreed on things , at least , i think we essentially want the same thing from the sport , but have different expectations from the riders and the fans.
    I see myself as a typical armchair fan who gets out at the weekend and in Tyler i saw a character who i could admire.He never won a classic or a GT , but he was still a rdier i respected.For me , this outcome , while not surprising , is a kick to the balls.
    I respect the decision even if i still give some benifit of doubt (or character?) to Tyler , but i now want to see the episode closed and cycling to move on.For this to happen , Tyler needs to either accept the guilty verdict or maintain his innocence 'passively' whilst helping the governing bodies clean up the sport.
    Being branded along with Millar and Virenque would not be a fitting end to Tylers career.Its a crying shame.I dont know him from Adam but he strikes me as a decent bloke caught up in a cutthroat busines.He isnt alone in that peloton by any means.
     
  4. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Well, for what it's worth, and from reading and listening to him, I like TH as a person.
    He came across as being a grounded sort of guy and he seemed to be a very
    pleasant, well mannered guy.
    The outcome to todays hearing should not obsecure these good qualities.
     
  5. JohnO

    JohnO New Member

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    Just as I view with scorn those who accuse Lance of doping without a shred of tangible evidence, I cannot also support Tyler when he really didn't offer a shred of tangible evidence to the contrary. 'may have been a chimera' Well, was he or wasn't he? That's easy to establish. I'm still willing to bet that he may not have been blood doping, but he was doing something he shouldn't have been doing.

    If anything, this should underline the seriousness of the problem. Look at the great stars that have been nailed - Virenque, Millar, Pantani, Hamilton... these were among the top riders, the very heart and soul of cycling. This isn't a momentary lapse of character, it strikes at the very core of the sport. While I don't care for the autocratic style of the UCI, or the foaming-at-the-mouth ranting of WADA, nor can we continue to have the sport held in disrepute. If there must be a few sacrifical lambs to clean up the sport, then get on with it. Whack the lambs, get the drugs out, and move on. It's better than people dropping dead from heart attacks at age 25, or retiring with a host of mysterious ailments. These are cyclists, not gladiators.

    In a way, I hold the cycling establishment in general partially responsible. They came up with the promotions, lucrative endorsements, and huge purses that tempt people to juice up. They profited from the success. Yet they failed to act when the evidence of doping first came out. It should never have come to the point where it is necessary to slam the top stars, not to mention those who have died as a result, directly or indirectly, of doping. I still wince when I think of Marco's end, that should not have happened. Drug controls should be so well established that even thinking about it gets you in trouble.

    Shame on the lot of them for ever letting it get out of control.
     
  6. S-WORKS

    S-WORKS New Member

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    JohnO is right, the shame is spread much wider than just TH and it hurts every one of us, fans, racers, and weekend warriors.

    A two year suspention is a drop in the bucket for a problem that runs deep through the sport.
     
  7. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    The fans are plenty to blame as well. Especially those who ignore shreds of doping evidence. More sad revelations are due for those clinging on to the false belief that somehow, their hero is 'clean'. Whatever, clean means anymore.

    Hero worship and crazy personal projections of qualities these riders simply do not possess.

    Work ethic, nice personalities?

    These are Gladitors, NOT CYCLISTS.

    Amateur cyclists do not use drugs or trauma sports medicine protocols. Of course, amateur cyclists do not appear in the Tour de France either. Elite sport is hyper competitive, and once a doper---always a liar. Such is the disease of addiction.

    Whether Tyler has a cute dog named tugboat or an evil rat for a pet--it makes ZERO difference. If you want professional cycling results, you will use drugs and blood boosting methods or you will retire.

    This is true whether your first name is David, Tyler, Alex, Richard, Oscar, Danilo, or Lance.

    This was yet another wake up call in a long series.

    Or you can just hit the snooze buttom and go back to dreamland.
     
  8. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    The fans are plenty to blame as well. Especially those who ignore shreds of doping evidence. More sad revelations are due for those clinging on to the false belief that somehow, their hero is 'clean'. Whatever clean means anymore.

    Hero worship and crazy personal projections of qualities these riders simply do not possess.

    Work ethic, nice personalities?

    These are Gladitors, NOT CYCLISTS.

    Amateur cyclists do not use drugs or trauma sports medicine protocols. Of course, amateur cyclists do not appear in the Tour de France either. Elite sport is hyper competitive, and once a doper---always a liar. Such is the disease of addiction.

    Whether Tyler has a cute dog named tugboat or an evil rat for a pet--it makes ZERO difference. If you want professional cycling results, you will use drugs and blood boosting methods or you will retire.

    This is true whether your first name is David, Tyler, Alex, Richard, Oscar, Danilo, or Lance.

    This was yet another wake up call in a long series.

    Or you can just hit the snooze buttom and go back to dreamland.
     
  9. bobke

    bobke New Member

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    Well I think the story is far from clear.

    For the sake of argument, if one assumes Tyler really did dope, he is going farther and to more extremes to prove he is innocent. That to me does not make so much sense.

    If one assumes he really did not dope, then he has to go and disprove that he is guilty till proven innocent. On his website, he cited these "foolproof" lab tests from the UCI which had his hamtaoctir at Romandie at 49.7% nd the Tour de France 38%. Now NO ONE, doper or not, shows up to the Tour with a Hct of 38. And both those values were way off from the team tests Phonak checked the night before.

    The clincher to me is that the antigens indicating a mixed red blood cell polulation in Athen were different from the antigens in Vuelta indicating mixed RBC population, although his blood counts even by the opposing experts did not indicate any substantial transfusion between the events.
    So their explanation, Tyler was transfused with shot-glass sized transfusions to "top off" his hematocrit. This is more far-fetched to me that Tyler's explanation.

    No way. those small transfusions wouldnt even help to start with. But assuming that he did so is the only explanation the accusing side could come up with.

    People who don't know science or medicine don't like it and have trouble accepting it. The chimera or vanishing twin doesnt sound like a winning defence, but it is unfortunately quite plausible and perhaps likely. More likely to my mind than what the accusers contend: that TYler had 2 major transfusions in January and June, then topped himself off multiple times in July and August and September. January? like, why? would any cyclist do that?

    But no matter, Tyler is screwed and WADA will feel vindicated, and that freekin ass Dick Pound will make more disparaging comments. I hope Dick doesnt visit Marblehead or Boston any time soon.
     
  10. James Felstead

    James Felstead New Member

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    yeah for sure! I mean that whole chimera theory is so much more likely than Tyler just being another pro cyclist who got caught doping.

    Please - I'm not saying this to try and insult you personally but there seem to be an awful lot of people out there who don't want to accept this no matter what.

    Get over it. He cheated, he was caught. End of story
     
  11. bobke

    bobke New Member

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    "Get over it he cheated."

    Well, to start with, how do YOU know he cheated? I'm not saying this to insult you but there are a lot of people who know nothing about science and cannot take a skeptical point of view about the witch hunts that are going on right now re Lance, Tyler etc. If they cant get Lance, they'll get the next American. How do you explain an extortionist who called Phonak demanding a bribe and predicted that Perez and Hamilton would turn positive, BEFORE Athens and Vuelta tests?
     
  12. James Felstead

    James Felstead New Member

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    I thought the whole argument that seems to have been raging on these boards is that we all had to wait until the legal process had run it's proper course. That all the 'facts' of the defense would be presented during the appeal and then a judgement made accordingly.

    Well - they were and their learned opinion was that he is guilty. Quite frankly having read some of the defenses put forward I'm not that surprised.

    What bemuses me is that it seems practically every other cycling fan is suddenly a medical expert, questioning the validity of every test going.

    So come on, accept it - all evidence points to the fact that he cheated.

    I can't decide whether I find the inference that there is something anti-american about this amusing or worrying.

    I seem to remember his team mate - who also amazingly managed to get busted for exactly the same thing - no co-incidence there then - getting his two year sentance pretty quickly. So I don't honestly see the witch hunt angle you suggest.

    People are on Lance's case because he keeps beating everyone - it breeds suspicion! I'm not one of them.

    At the same time when a rider fails a test I'm more inclined to believe the test. It seems that plenty of people on this board aren't prepared to believe the test no matter what. False positives are one thing but does it not strike you as nothing short of amazing that there are so many of them (if you are to believe the riders).

    Sorry - this all reads like an absolute rant but I've kept my mouth shut for a while now in order not to stir the 'believers'. I just find it amazing that they can't accept the process they were so insistant we all waited for.
     
  13. Eden

    Eden New Member

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    Though I really like Tyler and would like to have some hope that he wasn't cheating - I mean he's a really really tough guy and he's got my respect, I am having a hard time believing him these days with all of the evidence that there was not something going on. So, I have a theory to put forward, this is what I thought when the whole scandal first broke.

    Tyler always maintains he wouldn't jeapordize himself or his wife by taking someone elses blood right? Well, Santiago Perez was caught for exactly the same thing wasn't he? What if they were storing their own blood to transfuse before races and they accidentally mixed up the bags? It would only not make you sick if you had compatible blood types, and I don't know if the two of them do, but that was my first I thought when I heard the news.
     
  14. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

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    Dude, you really need to get on to the UCI website and look at the banned substance list. There is nothing that we take on a daily basis that wouldn't give a positive result.

    You said that amateur cyclists don't use drugs! I know of pleanty of riders who would pop positive under UCI standards for substances like creatine and Hydroxicut (diuretics). And if they are not using some sort of diuretic, they are using some sort of weight gainer (also banned).

    The ONLY way to keep our sport clean is, if they get a positive test, they are done. No if's and's, or but's.
     
  15. Roadrash Dunc

    Roadrash Dunc New Member

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    well Tylers part in the IMAX movie is being scrapped , but perhaps the X-Files creator will have him star in a new movie.Mulder , Scully , Tyler , Haven and the suits.

    The truth is out there. <cue spooky music>
     
  16. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Or until the next doping disclosure---at this rate, maybe this week.

    Insofar as the legal and scientific lengths that a high paid commercially endorsed athlete will take---look no further than another Nike athlete, Marion Jones. She hired the infamous attorney, Johnnie Cochran to get her off a automatic suspension in high school when she went AWOL for a mandatory urine test.

    This was pre-OJ Simpson fame--but Johnnie used the only legal tactic he had---the racial card vrs the US Track & Field. They relented and she went on to fame and Olympic fortune and lots of doping rumors, ex-husband & boyfriend steroid positives too.

    Tyler is merely following her play book (albeit w/o race as his excuse). Not surprising whatsoever given the money on the table.

    Don Catlin of the UCLA Lab (WADA approved) claims that legal wrongling by high paid athlete is the chief reason more suspensions are not handed out. The lab cannot afford to pay the legal fees to defend their work. The science is easy, the attorneys are tough.

    Business as usual for most doper/athletes.


     
  17. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Let us redefine illegal doping as:

    Cow blood, human blood, pig blood, anemia drugs, with or w/o a TUE, Nandrolone, Insulin, hGH,hCG, clomid, testosterone Easter Eggs and vasodilators combined with high levels of stimulants and diuretics.

    Even still, you'll escape a suspension on most of these products.

    I never said all the dopers will be caught, just the reverse. Most of the dopers are never caught. I advocate LIFETIME bans because of this fact----and because, once a doper---always a liar!

    Doping controls will never catch the dopers, only a small percentage. Hamilton was a big fish---and that is very rare.

    A red letter day for cycling!

    Dude out


     
  18. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    You are now talking about "autologous" transfusions as opposed to "homologous" transfusions.

    The problem with "autologous" transfusions (using your own blood) is that it makes a serious dent in your training program. It takes about 6 weeks for your system to restore the blood that has been removed and that time frame seriously degrades training. A pro cyclist cannot afford that break. And, apparently, your stored blood deteriorates over time so it is not as if you could gather supplies during your off season.

    So, I don't agree that there was could have been a remote possibility of a mix up changing an autologous transfusion into a homologous transfusion. Furthermore, the blood infused must be of the same type or you are looking at serious medical problems with the recipients.

    It appears that when Phonak adopted blood packing there was no known test whereas EPO was detectable depending upon the product and the form of administration. WADA were aware there were methods of avoiding EPO detection and were working on solutions. Phonak would have been in a state of shock in June when they were informed that tests would be introduced for homologous blood packing. TH had been previously informed that as his high blood values in April 2004 had put him on the "hit list" for future random testing. Hence, I believe his retirement from the TdF with "back problems" at or about the time of introduction of this test is no coincidence.
     
  19. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    When you consider that the entire Pro peloton is on drugs---on varying levels of dose & frequency--then Tyler is still an honorable Gladiator. All these riders are putting their lives at great health risk---and will shorten them at a minimum.

    If you are shocked and surprised---then you'll need to brace yourself for more bad news. Tyler may be gone, but plenty of other research trauma/anemia science projects remains. the doping will continue unabated.

    The science will become more outrageous than it already is.

    Some of the these top athletes are shills for tomorrows cancer and renal failure drugs.

    Was not Tyler a USPO rider and close partner of Lance Armstrong? Yet another dopey coincidence.

    Ferrari, Hamilton, Vasseur, et al... Lance sure picks cheaters for associates. Poor judgment or by design?



     
  20. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    I know he cheated cos a properly constituted body (of Americans) found so which had no comparison with past events at Salem.

    The handing down of the decision was deferred as TH asked for a one month adjournment to introduce additional evidence. No additional evidence was introduced. Why did he not introduce expert analysis on his current blood to prove it had a perpetual mixed population through the "vanishing twin" theory? That would have been his trump card.

    TH should have sat quiet over the past 6 months but, and I expect on advice, he played a PR stunt to obtain the sympathy of the American public. It was very orchestrated. SaveTyler.org, Tugboat, his wife, revelations of extortion, Tyler's own written assertions, etc.. Quite unprecedented.

    I further believe the intent of this campaign was to put pressure on those Americans who would sit in judgment on him. US sporting drug tribunals have had an abysmal track record of bias, non disclosure and buck passing in the past. But here they knew there decision would be the subject of international review. But at least TH persuaded one of the three.
     
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