Tyler Innocent?

[snyper0311]

Let us redefine illegal doping as:

Cow blood, human blood, pig blood, anemia drugs, with or w/o a TUE, Nandrolone, Insulin, hGH,hCG, clomid, testosterone Easter Eggs and vasodilators combined with high levels of stimulants and diuretics.

Even still, you'll escape a suspension on most of these products.

I never said all the dopers will be caught, just the reverse. Most of the dopers are never caught. I advocate LIFETIME bans because of this fact----and because, once a doper---always a liar!

Doping controls will never catch the dopers, only a small percentage. Hamilton was a big fish---and that is very rare.

A red letter day for cycling!

Dude out

Let me take a "Flyer" stance for a while- Isn't ALL doping illegal??????? Whether it be blood doping, taking substances, or as you call it Easter Eggs?

You constantly push the "everyones doping" theme on these threads and now you take the opportunity to gloat at the fall of a pro cyclist, the "Big Fish." What I don't understand about you is that you push anti doping but you don't look at the whole picture. Don't you think that the UCI is as much to blame as the fans? After all, it's their super-strict standards that you push as doping. A pro cyclist might as well die of a common cold because most of the drugs needed to cure it are, in some form, listed in the banned substances of the UCI.

 

[Flyer]

Everybody does dope (albeit at varying levels). But not to fight the flu or asthma. For anabolic conditioning, recovery, and for high performance.

Get serious. I do not gloat over things I already knew. The confirmation of blood manipulation does not thrill me. The non-believers can still worship their super-sized steroid heros---projecting false characteristics onto them. Corporate sponsors will continue to pander to that pretext.

It's the amateur hour dope that is detected. However, these Hamilton/Perez cases seems very different insofar as blood doping method detection.

I am personally aware that drugs (substances) such as: Insulin and growth hormones are used by pro cyclists and yet I am unaware that anybody has EVER TESTED POSITIVE for abusing these specific items.

I am unsure how EPO, hGH, hCG, Interlukin-3, IGF-1,2,3, Nandrolone, Insulin, corticosteroids, Pot Belge (Cocaine, heroin, morphine) aid the common cold?

These drugs are banned and yet undetectable (except for Nandrolone) EPO continues to be mostly undectable.

This is the maddening paradox.

The fans are the primary gulity party--because they are passive and in denial. Neither sporting federations nor the 'suspended athlete' will ever lift a fingure to clean up our sport.

Only the fans can act. But they choose to be passive.

WADA has not the money to fight doping---only provide a political platform for disclosure and encouragement.

Let me take a "Flyer" stance for a while- Isn't ALL doping illegal??????? Whether it be blood doping, taking substances, or as you call it Easter Eggs?

You constantly push the "everyones doping" theme on these threads and now you take the opportunity to gloat at the fall of a pro cyclist, the "Big Fish." What I don't understand about you is that you push anti doping but you don't look at the whole picture. Don't you think that the UCI is as much to blame as the fans? After all, it's their super-strict standards that you push as doping. A pro cyclist might as well die of a common cold because most of the drugs needed to cure it are, in some form, listed in the banned substances of the UCI.

 

[VeloFlash]

The handing down of the decision was deferred as TH asked for a one month adjournment to introduce additional evidence. No additional evidence was introduced. Why did he not introduce expert analysis on his current blood to prove it had a perpetual mixed population through the "vanishing twin" theory? That would have been his trump card.

Referring to this part of a previous post of mine.

After reading the decision at:

http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/AAA_CAS Decision - Hamilton.pdf

TH did present an analysis of his current blood (histogram). This was done on 5 February 2005. There was no evidence of a mixed blood population consistent with a blood transfusion, being a chimera or having a "vanishing twin."

His expert witness, Dr. Housman, also had conducted a previous analysis (histogram not presented as evidence) and conceded the results were normal.

But they had argued in the proceedings that TH could be a chimera (only 100 known cases worldwide) or he had a vanishing twin which caused the false positive. These were the alternate defences put by TH.

It appears to be an inept defence to put forward those alternatives that would rely on a permanent mixed population of blood when his current blood analyses proved the existence of no such mixed populations.

 

[Flyer]

Per Tyler's website doping explanation/denial he swears he would never risk his persoanl health or that of his family. That rings hollow!


Why complete the 2002 Giro di Italia with a broken collarbone, whilst grinding his molar teeth down to the roots? Then do it again in the 2003 TDF?

Why descend on narrow wet Alpine roads at 90 kph?
Or attack on cobbled slippery streets in the rain at 2003 LBL to win solo?

Tyler has always demonstrated utter contempt for personal health---as any good Gadiator must.

A blood transfusion or use of Actovegin or Hemopure---although not technically approved--seem much safer than Tyler's cornering style.

 

[wilmar13]

Per Tyler's website doping explanation/denial he swears he would never risk his persoanl health or that of his family. That rings hollow!

A blood transfusion or use of Actovegin or Hemopure---although not technically approved--seem much safer than Tyler's cornering style.

I have to agree with Flyer on this one, that is a pretty weak defense... but more to the point, who says taking and doing these things really are harmful to your health? Yeah I mean I am sure in .x% of the population there are bound to be lethal side effects, but if it is so dangerous, why aren't they dropping like flies? Isn't it possible that it is more about cheating than risking the health of the riders? I mean seriously I have never seen data that showed that someone under a Dr's care (like Ferrari) with close attention is really at a SIGNIFICANTLY higher risk of health problems... this would tend to give some credence to the psyche of someone like Tyler who would not dope, if he truely believed it would harm him (which he did not). Anybody know for sure that with carefully controlled conditions what we are calling doping still has significant health risks?

 

[Flyer]

snip....

His expert witness, Dr. Housman, also had conducted a previous analysis (histogram not presented as evidence) and conceded the results were normal.



Again, per Tyler's website, he bragged that 'medical expert Jim Stray-Gunderson has conducted more than 10,000 blood tests on athletes participating in doping research programs'.

Hmmmmmmmm??????? Was that a Freudian slip?

1) Are hundreds or thousands of athletes being used for drug research?

2) How does Tyler know this?

3) Is Tyler a research Guinea Pig participant too?

4) If Tyler did not know about doping research & athletes, how did he meet Jim Stay-Gundersen?

5) Does Hausman know Michele Ferrari & Luigi Cecchini too?

Did anyone else notice this Tyler declaration?

 

[Flyer]

None of these elite athlete clients believe that treatments recommended by Conconi, Ferrari, Cecchini, Santuccione, Lazzaro are harmful.

Just the reverse. They believe that training and racing Grand Tours is harmful w/o drugs and treatments. (Luc LeBlanc even said so in retirement)

Such is the pathology of the doping addiction.

I believe they are all flat wrong about this. And these guys are dropping dead like flys--every 60 days! They get sick first (cancer, bi-polar, high blood pressure), then die prematurely.

Here are a few names of former patients:

Panatani, Zanette --Conconi's work

Give it another ten years----then we will see!

I have to agree with Flyer on this one, that is a pretty weak defense... but more to the point, who says taking and doing these things really are harmful to your health? Yeah I mean I am sure in .x% of the population there are bound to be lethal side effects, but if it is so dangerous, why aren't they dropping like flies? Isn't it possible that it is more about cheating than risking the health of the riders? I mean seriously I have never seen data that showed that someone under a Dr's care (like Ferrari) with close attention is really at a SIGNIFICANTLY higher risk of health problems... this would tend to give some credence to the psyche of someone like Tyler who would not dope, if he truely believed it would harm him (which he did not). Anybody know for sure that with carefully controlled conditions what we are calling doping still has significant health risks?

 

[wilmar13]

I believe they are all flat wrong about this. And these guys are dropping dead like flys--every 60 days! They get sick first (cancer, bi-polar, high blood pressure), then die prematurely.

Here are a few names of former patients:

Panatani, Zanette --Conconi's work

Give it another ten years----then we will see!

Yeah, but people in the general population develop cancer, HBP, Depression, etc., Pantani died of a coke overdose, that has nothing to do with doping in this context. I don't know anything about Zanette. I don't think you will find many people that say Pro Cyclists aren't trying to gain an advantage in any way possible, but to say it is killing them and they are gladiators... well I guess it will take ten years to find out.

 

[davidbod]

We can pick this apart till the end of time here, but we were not at the hearing and we did not hear all of the evidence. Three individuals charged with hearing the evidence and rendering a decision did, and they could not agree on his guilt or innocence. And what if next time this test finds someone guilty and the decision is 2 to 1 in favor of the cyclist, what then.

 

[Flyer]

If you don't know about Zanetti then you have really shown off your true colors. A profound lack of knowledge on doping, mortality and addiction consequences. Please do not assume these Galdiators are as healthy as the general population---they are not!

Marco Pantani was an EPO addict as much as a coke abuser. They often go together as does the Pot Belge/(Cocaine, heroin, morphine & corticosteroids)

Denis Zanetti was a teammate of David Rebellin, (ring a bell now?) at LiguidGas. Both were video and audio taped ordering EPO, hGH, insulin etc... during the 2001 Giro. Stay tuned for that Italian doping trial involving Rebellin and his wife, just now beginning.

Anyway, the 32 year old Zanetti was a Conconi client and he died in his dentist's chair after some dental work on January 10, 2003. It was quite a shock to his dentist.

Just because are Gladiator die away from the arena is no reason to forget their lives and mortalities.

Let's review just a quick few:

Denis Zanetti, 1-10-03, age 32
Fabrice Salanson, 6-3, 03, age 23
Marco Ceriani, summer 03, age 16
Marco Rusconi, 11-14-03, age 24
Jose Maria Jimenez, 12-08-03, age 32
Michel Zanoli, (former Motorola) 12-29-03, age 35
Marco Pantani, 2-14,04, age 32
Stive Vermaut, 6-13-04, age 28
Gerrie Kneteman (Raleigh/PDM), 11-02-03, age 53
Tim Pauwels, 9-26-04, age 22
Alexandre Zinoviev, 2-21-05, age 43

There are at least three others since 2004, so the deaths occur every 60 days.

And then there are the bi-polar, cancer, high blood pressure, etc... that occur each new week too.

Yeah, but people in the general population develop cancer, HBP, Depression, etc., Pantani died of a coke overdose, that has nothing to do with doping in this context. I don't know anything about Zanette. I don't think you will find many people that say Pro Cyclists aren't trying to gain an advantage in any way possible, but to say it is killing them and they are gladiators... well I guess it will take ten years to find out.

 

[Flyer]

All verdicts generally end with a 2 to 1. The athlete gets to pick one arbitrar from his friendlier side.

It is as politcial as it is just!

We can pick this apart till the end of time here, but we were not at the hearing and we did not hear all of the evidence. Three individuals charged with hearing the evidence and rendering a decision did, and they could not agree on his guilt or innocence. And what if next time this test finds someone guilty and the decision is 2 to 1 in favor of the cyclist, what then.

 

[wilmar13]

If you don't know about Zanetti then you have really shown off your true colors. A profound lack of knowledge on doping, mortality and addiction consequences. Please do not assume these Galdiators are as healthy as the general population---they are not!

If I ever wrote anything where I came across as a self-professed doping aficionado, I was in error. I am a guy that likes to ride and race bicycles at a terminal Cat 3 level. I also like to casually follow professional road racing. That is it, don't let my complaining about the many thread hijacks and troll-like posts confuse the issue. BTW, this is a good thread to get it all out of your system, as it is both applicable to road racing, and the topic of the thread. If you keep your opinions in threads like this all is good.

 

[meehs]

The fans are plenty to blame as well. Especially those who ignore shreds of doping evidence. More sad revelations are due for those clinging on to the false belief that somehow, their hero is 'clean'. Whatever clean means anymore.

Hero worship and crazy personal projections of qualities these riders simply do not possess.

Work ethic, nice personalities?

These are Gladitors, NOT CYCLISTS.

Amateur cyclists do not use drugs or trauma sports medicine protocols. Of course, amateur cyclists do not appear in the Tour de France either. Elite sport is hyper competitive, and once a doper---always a liar. Such is the disease of addiction.

Whether Tyler has a cute dog named tugboat or an evil rat for a pet--it makes ZERO difference. If you want professional cycling results, you will use drugs and blood boosting methods or you will retire.

This is true whether your first name is David, Tyler, Alex, Richard, Oscar, Danilo, or Lance.

This was yet another wake up call in a long series.

Or you can just hit the snooze buttom and go back to dreamland.

Very well said Flyer. I have to agree. I was reading through this thread with replies from folks condemning Hamilton as a convicted cheater while evidently still believing their favorite rider or riders to be clean (I won't name any names). I couldn't help but think how naive they are.

As far as Hamilton, who a lot of folks once believed to be a great guy and whom these same folks are now condemning as a cheating scoundrel; all I can say is these people should realize that TH simply fell victim to the temptaion that every top professional cyclist must face. Do "what it takes" to succeed or go home. Let's not confuse dope cheats with real criminals. If you think Tyler is an anomaly in the pro cycling peloton, you really do need to wake-up. The difference is that Tyler didn't play the game as well as some of his competitors and he got caught.

 

[meehs]

How do you explain an extortionist who called Phonak demanding a bribe and predicted that Perez and Hamilton would turn positive, BEFORE Athens and Vuelta tests?

Ummm, yeah. Sounds like an "urban legend" to me. Can you site your source for that bit of information?

 

[James Felstead]

I was reading through this thread with replies from folks condemning Hamilton as a convicted cheater while evidently still believing their favorite rider or riders to be clean (I won't name any names). I couldn't help but think how naive they are.

As one of the few people who's used that phrase in this thread I can only assume the comment is directed at me?

If you think I'm drifting around in some self deluded haze whereby I think Hamilton is some outrageous criminal cheating a predominantly clean competing peleton I think you're grossly mistaken.

 

[limerickman]

I think some perspective needs to be introduced here.

TH did cheat and was found to have cheated.

In absolute terms, what does the TH case tell us ?

It tells us that he did cheat.
It doesn't tell us why he cheated nor does it address the reason as to why TH decided to cheat.
These issues are the ones which I think, Flyer is attempting to address.

While it is right to condemn TH for the act of cheating, I think that to condemn him and his character for ever more, in a human context, is ridiculous and unfair.

Finally, it is worth re-iterating that all of the platitudes, all of the fervour to
smash drugs/doping, in the aftermath of Festina (1998), Pantani's death (2003) and all instances in between, have failed.

 

[meehs]

As one of the few people who's used that phrase in this thread I can only assume the comment is directed at me?

If you think I'm drifting around in some self deluded haze whereby I think Hamilton is some outrageous criminal cheating a predominantly clean competing peleton I think you're grossly mistaken.

When I said "I won't name names" I was actually referring to names of cyclists that people are presuming to be clean not names of forum members. I didn't mean to point to any particular post or poster.That said it certainly seems as though some folks here believe their heros to be clean while the few pros that actually happen to get busted are scoundrel dope cheats. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[James Felstead]

that's alright then - don't want to get the wrong reputation

 

[meehs]

While it is right to condemn TH for the act of cheating, I think that to condemn him and his character for ever more, in a human context, is ridiculous and unfair.

I agee with you that it's not right to condemn TH and his character in a "human" context. That's what I was getting at.

But I have a tough time really condemning a cyclist for "cheating" in a sport where pretty much every top competitor is quite likely doing the same thing. I know it might sound silly. But is a cheat among cheats really a cheater? The whole sport is corrupt and in my opinion pointing to the few riders who happen to get caught and saying "Oh! Cheater! Doper! You're a cheater!" is absolutly absurd! Until the sport is cleaned-up, these riders are just the unfortunate few who happen to get caught. I'm not saying we should look the other way and do nothing. I'm not sure what can be done. But to condemn the ones who happen to get caught as cheaters is like going into a maximum security prison and pointing to an individual inmate and saying "Oh! You're a bad person! You're a criminal"!

 

[James Felstead]

Finally, it is worth re-iterating that all of the platitudes, all of the fervour to
smash drugs/doping, in the aftermath of Festina (1998), Pantani's death (2003) and all instances in between, have failed.

Indeed they have failed - and judging by many of the views expressed on this forum is that any surprise?

Even with a guilty verdict handed down it seems there are a stack of people out there who don't want to accept it. Quick to doubt any medical test but happy to back a rider based on nothing more than faith (despite the many historical cases that prove riders claims of innocence to be nothing but lies). This level of denial is quite an obsticle.

This is what i find so frustrating about the whole doping issue - it clearly damages the sport on a fundamental level but there seems to be limited appetite to geniunely tackle the problem - on many many levels - from governing bodies, teams, riders to armchair supporters.

The problem is I'm not one of those who can simply say 'that's just the way it is' and carry like it's all okay. Ho hum


what can you do?