Tyler Innocent?

[Flyer]

Just because our Cycling Gladiators die away from the arena is no reason to forget their lives and mortalities.

Denis Zanetti, 1-10-03, age 32
Fabrice Salanson, 6-3, 03, age 23
Marco Ceriani, summer 03, age 16
Marco Rusconi, 11-14-03, age 24
Jose Maria Jimenez, 12-08-03, age 32
Michel Zanoli, (former Motorola) 12-29-03, age 35
Marco Pantani, 2-14,04, age 32
Stive Vermaut, 6-13-04, age 28
Gerrie Kneteman (Raleigh/PDM), 11-02-03, age 53
Tim Pauwels, 9-26-04, age 22
Alexandre Zinoviev, 2-21-05, age 43

There are at least three others since 2004, so the deaths are occuring every 60 days. There was also a death on Marco Pantani's Valentine Day--but his name was brushed over by the bigger name.

 

[limerickman]

My point was never about buying it, but about the fact that you asked for sources, then when provided with them you didn't like them and now you don't like my memory compared to yours. You are acting like a certain obsessed poster who trys to turn everything into what supports his ideas no matter what. By the way I am relaxed, you are the one who got a little itchy there! Oh well.

I think you need to relax.
Meehs, is probably one of the most objective posters here and doesn't "wade in"
on issues.

You're attempting to re-write history here.
TH has been found guilty.
His defence has been rejected.

I can see that this whole TH episode is a disappointment to fans like you.
And while I sympathise on human level, I think the decison is binding.

 

[House]

I think you need to relax.
Meehs, is probably one of the most objective posters here and doesn't "wade in"
on issues.

You're attempting to re-write history here.
TH has been found guilty.
His defence has been rejected.

I can see that this whole TH episode is a disappointment to fans like you.
And while I sympathise on human level, I think the decison is binding.

Go back and read what I wrote again...I never said anything about innocence or guilt merely responded to his request for sources on the extortionist angle. Perhaps you shouldn't just "wade-in" No offence intended.

 

[davidbod]

Here is a link to the full UASDA decision in the Hamilton case.

http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/AAA_CAS Decision - Hamilton[1].pdf

The part I have trouble with is the original verdict on the Olympics test was negative, then changed to positive over a month later by a panel consisting of members who have a vested interest in the success of the testing method and knowing who the sample had come from. The sample at the Vuelta had a significantly lower reading than the Olympics sample, meaning that if the original technician at the Olympics had judged both samples (Olympics and Vuelta) they would have both been deemed negative. To say that this whole process has been tampered with is an understatement.

 

[limerickman]

Go back and read what I wrote again...I never said anything about innocence or guilt merely responded to his request for sources on the extortionist angle. Perhaps you shouldn't just "wade-in" No offence intended.

Well what do you call, calling in to question the decision against TH ?
You were advocating that TH was innocent.

He has been proven guilty.

Learn to live with it.
No offence intended.

 

[House]

Well what do you call, calling in to question the decision against TH ?
You were advocating that TH was innocent.

He has been proven guilty.

Learn to live with it.
No offence intended.

Learn to read. Apparently you have decided to put something in that isn't there. Nice try.

 

[limerickman]

Learn to read. Apparently you have decided to put something in that isn't there. Nice try.

You learn to remember - you state that you maintain that TH is innocent.
Despite the fact that his defence has shown to be defective.

 

[VeloFlash]

Well here goes.

There has never been independent, peer reviewed study of the blood transfusion detection method to detect doping in sports.

I refer you to the Arbitration ruling. The dissenting panel member, Christopher L Campbell, stated at page 14 of 20 (PDF numbering) final paragraph: "USADA presented a peer-reviewed study conducted by Margaret Nelson & associates ("Nelson Study") as the validation for the new WADA Transfusion Positivity Criteria in question in these proceedings."

The other problem is the outrageous claim that no false positives do or can exist. Simply outrageous and not in keeping with standard scientific protocol. Tyler's MIT expert made mincemeat out of the guys who developed this thing, but no one cared except the dissenter.

Where did he "made mincemeat of the guys who developed this thing"? I cannot find such events in the rulings. He (Housman, MIT expert) is referenced in the notes by the two panel members in agreement that they have dismissed his theory and have provided opposite findings. If he had made "mincemeat" of the test developers the USADA case would have been dismissed and TH would have been competing.

The TH team were not confident of the outcome as they asked for a one month's extension to introduce new evidence. No new evidence was introduced. If the decision was in TH's favour in March 2005 he would have been time eligible to enter the TdG.

Third, the guys defending the test have a vested interest in terms of money and reputation in seeing this thing work and be used, (and Tyler not win) apart from their obviously "altruistic" motivation to rid the world of dangerous people like Tyler. Any published dollar amount on what these guys have made on the test and its use?

Are you saying there is a conspiracy existing between UCI, WADA, USADA, 2 arbitration members and the test developers? If so, TH had the odds stacked against him!

If Tyler were to win, it would be a huge embarassment for **** Pound, the scientists, and their whole approach. They would have to admit that mistakes were made in terms of not validating the test protocol etc and then every athlete who came along would tie them up in endless litigation--even if wrongful. This is why Tyler has to go down, to save the system.

system=conspiracy?

Why was Tyler's test initially called negative at Athens and then later reversed by a panel--composed of these guys who developed the test? Can anyone explain why a special panel was convened? And why they violated the rules of anti-doping testing that all samples are tested blindly without knowledge of who the sample belonged to? A pretty major problem I think.

That is part of the findings history preamble. The panel were not asked to rule on Athens. Could not and did not have any bearing on the Vuelta outcome. From recollection, an enquiry found that the lab testers had implemented the procedures incorrectly. Was not the Vuelta samples processed by a different lab?

And if the test is so accurate and bloody black and white (which is also one of Tyler's assertions that it isnt) why was there disagreement between the first and second reading of the result? It leaves the impression that there is a grey area of subjectivity in reading the test, which violated the anti-doping procedures code.

Irrelevant to the Vuelta outcome.

I downloaded the arbitration committees findings and have to say that there are compelling facts on BOTH sides, but Tyler openly submitted repeat testing showing no mixed RBC population in February 2005 so the guy is being transparent about the whole thing. He is saying he doesnt know how or why. But it is important for folks to realize that sometimes there are false positives in labs and the sample could have been mishandled or other factors involved.

And if you had studied the findings you would have deduced that he had submitted to two blood analyses which showed no mixed blood population to support the research conducted by van Dijk (referred to final paragraph of page 10 of 20 of PDF). Van Dijk claimed it is "probable" that a human chimera can have fluctuations between mixed and single blood populations. TH had presented 2 blood analyses to the panel (one by Housman testimony) that only showed a single population. In support of this van Dijk "probability" theory there should have been other analyses around about the same time that showed TH's blood population had fluctuated. Pretty difficult to get a panel to support a probability theory if you do not provide applicable evidence.

TH's objective was not to be transparent. Only desperation that the panel would swallow that his now lack of a mixed blood population related to him being a human chimera with fluctuating blood populations.

 

[House]

You learn to remember - you state that you maintain that TH is innocent.
Despite the fact that his defence has shown to be defective.

Show me the post in this thread where I "stated that I maintain TH is innocent" You can't because I never said it. You are acting like the trained puppy now, making up stuff to suit what you want it to...and just like your hero you just got made to look like a fool. You took a conversation between Meehs and I about the extortionist and tried to turn it into something it wasn't. Care to get smacked around again?

 

[Flyer]

Care to get smacked around again?


Your posts add so much to the discussion. Mindless rants and name calling.

You really do a great disservice to Lance Armstrong and his cohorts by attempting to cover for them by your illmannered ad hominem attacks.

Which is why we love you!

You got no game, and you prove each time you press 'submit'.

 

[House]

...coming from the guy who simply reposts the same things over and over, posts lies, half truths and simply ignores facts. LOL

WOOF, WOOF! Way to come when you are called

 

[Flyer]

Which half of these decedents is undead or really a jealous rumor? Half-truth or fact?

Denis Zanetti, 1-10-03, age 32
Fabrice Salanson, 6-3, 03, age 23
Marco Ceriani, summer 03, age 16
Marco Rusconi, 11-14-03, age 24
Jose Maria Jimenez, 12-08-03, age 32
Michel Zanoli, (former Motorola) 12-29-03, age 35
Marco Pantani, 2-14,04, age 32
Stive Vermaut, 6-13-04, age 28
Gerrie Kneteman (Raleigh/PDM), 11-02-03, age 53
Tim Pauwels, 9-26-04, age 22
Alexandre Zinoviev, 2-21-05, age 43

There are at least three others since 2004, so the deaths are occuring every 60 days. There was also a death on Marco Pantani's Valentine Day--but his name was brushed over by the bigger name.

 

[VeloFlash]

Show me the post in this thread where I "stated that I maintain TH is innocent" You can't because I never said it. You are acting like the trained puppy now, making up stuff to suit what you want it to...and just like your hero you just got made to look like a fool. You took a conversation between Meehs and I about the extortionist and tried to turn it into something it wasn't. Care to get smacked around again?

You never made that statement but strongly implied. I refer to post #12 on this thread where you referred readers to to TH's latest diary of 18 April 2005:

"To all: Go check out Tylers website, his latest entry is very interesting...that is if you are the type of person who looks at all sides before condeming (sic) someone."

This is where the absurd claim is re-visited about a mystery extortionist (first disclosed by TH on 12.12.04) who had foreknowledge in August & October 2004 about Phonak's doping violations. Not one skerrick of detail about the extortionist other than he was a former rider who has a daughter who was a podium girl. The arrest must have been made in a locality that suppresses these events and identities.

TH makes an interesting diary note on March 11, 2005 that the hearing was over on March 2, 2005 and TH sadly farewelled his legal team.

http://www.tylerhamilton.com/janmar2005228.html

It was reported in CyclingNews: "The scheduling of the case was expedited by USADA at Hamilton's request. According to USADA, the AAA/CAS Panel "provided Hamilton over a month extension following the hearing to submit any additional evidence in his defense."

This extension would have expired on or about 2 April 2005 and then the panel was given 10 days to prepare their findings. So TH never availed himself of the one month's extension to submit additional evidence but now he claims he is submitting additional evidence for his appeal.

(Newspaper article on his April 20, 2005 diary) "He plans to file the CAS appeal soon but is waiting to compile more evidence. Once an appeal is filed, new information can only be submitted to CAS in the next 10 days."

 

[meb]

You are now talking about "autologous" transfusions as opposed to "homologous" transfusions.

The problem with "autologous" transfusions (using your own blood) is that it makes a serious dent in your training program. It takes about 6 weeks for your system to restore the blood that has been removed and that time frame seriously degrades training. A pro cyclist cannot afford that break. And, apparently, your stored blood deteriorates over time so it is not as if you could gather supplies during your off season.

So, I don't agree that there was could have been a remote possibility of a mix up changing an autologous transfusion into a homologous transfusion. Furthermore, the blood infused must be of the same type or you are looking at serious medical problems with the recipients.

It appears that when Phonak adopted blood packing there was no known test whereas EPO was detectable depending upon the product and the form of administration. WADA were aware there were methods of avoiding EPO detection and were working on solutions. Phonak would have been in a state of shock in June when they were informed that tests would be introduced for homologous blood packing. TH had been previously informed that as his high blood values in April 2004 had put him on the "hit list" for future random testing. Hence, I believe his retirement from the TdF with "back problems" at or about the time of introduction of this test is no coincidence.

The 1.3 % foreign blood reported from Vuelta suggests an increase of only .6% in hemocrit level. If the 1.3% is accurate rather than background noise, it may have been from an old transfusion from before the forthcoming test anouncement, perhaps a transfusion before Romandie as that showed the abnormally high hemocrit. The foreign rbc hadn't yet been expelled, perhaps to the surprise of Hamilton.

 

[House]

You never made that statement but strongly implied. I refer to post #12 on this thread where you referred readers to to TH's latest diary of 18 April 2005:

"To all: Go check out Tylers website, his latest entry is very interesting...that is if you are the type of person who looks at all sides before condeming (sic) someone."

This is where the absurd claim is re-visited about a mystery extortionist (first disclosed by TH on 12.12.04) who had foreknowledge in August & October 2004 about Phonak's doping violations. Not one skerrick of detail about the extortionist other than he was a former rider who has a daughter who was a podium girl. The arrest must have been made in a locality that suppresses these events and identities.

TH makes an interesting diary note on March 11, 2005 that the hearing was over on March 2, 2005 and TH sadly farewelled his legal team.

http://www.tylerhamilton.com/janmar2005228.html

It was reported in CyclingNews: "The scheduling of the case was expedited by USADA at Hamilton's request. According to USADA, the AAA/CAS Panel "provided Hamilton over a month extension following the hearing to submit any additional evidence in his defense."

This extension would have expired on or about 2 April 2005 and then the panel was given 10 days to prepare their findings. So TH never availed himself of the one month's extension to submit additional evidence but now he claims he is submitting additional evidence for his appeal.

(Newspaper article on his April 20, 2005 diary) "He plans to file the CAS appeal soon but is waiting to compile more evidence. Once an appeal is filed, new information can only be submitted to CAS in the next 10 days."

So in other words I took a link and told people there was interesting stuff in it if you like to get both sides of a story and you, later after a conversation about the extortionist, suddenly decided that I was "implying" that TH is innocent. Backtracking rather fast aren't you? You were wrong, juts admit it. You said something and it was totally false, now you are trying to sell truth as being what you suddenly believe something implied. You really are an ass kissing puppy wannabe. What a joke. LOL

 

[limerickman]

So in other words I took a link and told people there was interesting stuff in it if you like to get both sides of a story and you, later after a conversation about the extortionist, suddenly decided that I was "implying" that TH is innocent. Backtracking rather fast aren't you? You were wrong, juts admit it. You said something and it was totally false, now you are trying to sell truth as being what you suddenly believe something implied. You really are an ass kissing puppy wannabe. What a joke. LOL

There's no two sides to the TH story - despite your best attempts to assert TH's innocence with **** about extortion and other such waffle.

TH's side of the story was proven to be false.

And that's that.

 

[House]

There's no two sides to the TH story - despite your best attempts to assert TH's innocence with **** about extortion and other such waffle.

TH's side of the story was proven to be false.

And that's that.

Now we had to the denial stage. You were made to look like an idiot, you lied, you backtraked, you got caught, give it up, you are only making yourself look worse.

 

[limerickman]

Now we had to the denial stage. You were made to look like an idiot, you lied, you backtraked, you got caught, give it up, you are only making yourself look worse.

The only backtracker here is you - you've advocated that TH was innocent.
When the decision was handed down - WHEN TH'S DEFENCE WAS REJECTED -
and he got banned, you still try to maintain his innocence by quoting waffle
about extortion and putting "the other side of the story".

There is no other side of the story.

TH was charged, convicted and sentanced.

 

[mjolnir2k]

The only backtracker here is you - you've advocated that TH was innocent.
When the decision was handed down - WHEN TH'S DEFENCE WAS REJECTED -
and he got banned, you still try to maintain his innocence by quoting waffle
about extortion and putting "the other side of the story".

There is no other side of the story.

TH was charged, convicted and sentanced.

Caveat:
Appeal is pending..let's all hold our horses until it is final.

 

[James Felstead]

Caveat:
Appeal is pending..let's all hold our horses until it is final.

but not our breath?