Typical Dishonest Mountain Biker Tries to Justify Their Selfish, Destructive Sport

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mike Vandeman, Feb 23, 2004.

  1. At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    >"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days later,
    to document the damage that was done to the park. The race course was twenty miles long, so I knew I
    couldn't possibly hike it in a day. Consequently I borrowed a friend's mountain bike. It was lucky
    that I did, because I discovered that, contrary to what the mountain bikers claim, riding a bike off
    of paved roads is no fun at all! I rode only on fire roads, but even there, I was continually
    subject to violent jarring, due to the hoof- and tire-pocked "washboard" surface of the road. (I
    know that there are bikes with a so-called "suspension", but there is no way to make a ride like
    that "smooth" or enjoyable.) Not only was the ride physically very unpleasant, but having to
    continually watch the trail and try to control the bike meant that it was impossible to enjoy the
    scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of nature. So much for the mountain bikers' claims that they
    use bikes to "enjoy nature"!"

    >My comments.

    >First: Just because YOU cannot control your bike

    I didn'a say that, liar. I said that controlling the bike takes one's attention away from nature.
    That's obvious.

    > and enjoy mountain biking doesn't mean that ALL mountain bikers are
    out-of-control

    I didn't say that, liar. Why do mountain bikers have so much trouble telling the truth?????

    >and do not enjoy their outdoor experience.

    I never said that, liar. I said that they are less aware of their surroundings than a hiker.

    > Every trail ride that I have ever done is filled with enjoyment and
    opportunities to enjoy nature - clean air, no cars, watching birds... this is not the sole realm of
    the hiker.

    But MOST of your attention is necessarily directed to controlling the bike and not crashing. That is
    UNAVOIDABLE, when on a bike.

    >Second: The day that hikers give up their hiking boots and hike barefoot,
    that's the day that I'll throw away my mountain bike.

    There's no comparison between the impacts of flat-soled (or even lugged) shoes & knobby mountain
    bike tires. Besides, there ARE hikers who hike barefoot.

    > Everyone needs mechanical assistance to "enjoy" their outdoor experience,

    A bike doesn't help one enjoy nature. It actually INTERFERES with the enjoyment of nature, as I
    explained. Try telling the truth for once.

    > at the expense of the soil that we tread upon. Hikers are no different despite
    their continual finger-pointing.

    Weren't you just pointing your finger at hikers, hypocrite?

    >JMJ

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
    Tags:


  2. Dear Mr. Vandeman, Could you PLEASE at least try to make it possible to discern which comments are
    yours and which are someone else's?

    In the following exchange, it appears that YOU went for a bike ride in a Park a few days after an
    event was held there. It also appears that YOU do not actually enjoy riding a bike, and that the
    most significant thing you bring up is just how uncomfortable mountain bike riding really is. I have
    news for you, just because YOU don't like to ride a bike is no reason for everybody else to not
    enjoy riding a bike. It appears by your own comments (as I said, it is difficult to tell if it was
    you riding the bike or somebody else), that you are a wuss because you can not tolerate precisely
    the part of the sport that most people are attracted to the sport for.

    Many, if not all, mountain bike riders will stop at the most remote spots to have a dirnk of water
    and eat a sandwich. It is in these remote locations that they get the full enjoyment of the trip.
    While the actual riding part is being undertaken, they simply enjoy the fresh air and the view of
    the distant hills, forests, and mesas. They may or may not observe things that are just a few feet
    away, but what concern is it of yours that they look at the immediate vicinity of the trail, or look
    miles across the valley floor to the beauty on the other side? Just because your personal choice is
    to look directly at your feet as you walk, other's personal choice is to look at the magnificant
    views that stretch for miles and miles. Since the view of miles and miles away does not change
    quickly, then it does not take constant attention to enjoy.

    There is no truth whatsoever to your claim that bikers are not in tune with their surroundings, or
    are less aware of them than a hiker. Indeed, it isn't even important if the level of awareness is
    the same or different. Hikers themselves have different levels of awareness among themselves, and it
    is entirely likely that a hiker can have less awareness of his surroundings than a bike rider.

    <end top post>

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    > >"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days
    later,
    > to document the damage that was done to the park. The race course was
    twenty
    > miles long, so I knew I couldn't possibly hike it in a day. Consequently I borrowed a friend's
    > mountain bike. It was lucky that I did, because I
    discovered
    > that, contrary to what the mountain bikers claim, riding a bike off of
    paved
    > roads is no fun at all! I rode only on fire roads, but even there, I was continually subject to
    > violent jarring, due to the hoof- and tire-pocked "washboard" surface of the road. (I know that
    > there are bikes with a
    so-called
    > "suspension", but there is no way to make a ride like that "smooth" or enjoyable.) Not only was
    > the ride physically very unpleasant, but having to
    continually
    > watch the trail and try to control the bike meant that it was impossible
    to
    > enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of nature. So much for
    the
    > mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!"
    >
    >
    > >My comments.
    >
    > >First: Just because YOU cannot control your bike
    >
    > I didn'a say that, liar. I said that controlling the bike takes one's
    attention
    > away from nature. That's obvious.
    >
    > > and enjoy mountain biking doesn't mean that ALL mountain bikers are
    > out-of-control
    >
    > I didn't say that, liar. Why do mountain bikers have so much trouble
    telling the
    > truth?????
    >
    > >and do not enjoy their outdoor experience.
    >
    > I never said that, liar. I said that they are less aware of their
    surroundings
    > than a hiker.
    >
    > > Every trail ride that I have ever done is filled with enjoyment and
    > opportunities to enjoy nature - clean air, no cars, watching birds... this
    is
    > not the sole realm of the hiker.
    >
    > But MOST of your attention is necessarily directed to controlling the bike
    and
    > not crashing. That is UNAVOIDABLE, when on a bike.
    >
    >
    > >Second: The day that hikers give up their hiking boots and hike barefoot,
    > that's the day that I'll throw away my mountain bike.
    >
    > There's no comparison between the impacts of flat-soled (or even lugged)
    shoes &
    > knobby mountain bike tires. Besides, there ARE hikers who hike barefoot.
    >
    > > Everyone needs mechanical assistance to "enjoy" their outdoor
    experience,
    >
    > A bike doesn't help one enjoy nature. It actually INTERFERES with the
    enjoyment
    > of nature, as I explained. Try telling the truth for once.
    >
    > > at the expense of the soil that we tread upon. Hikers are no different
    despite
    > their continual finger-pointing.
    >
    > Weren't you just pointing your finger at hikers, hypocrite?
    >
    >
    > >JMJ
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    > help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    >
    > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  3. Pete

    Pete Guest

  4. Gary S .

    Gary S . Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:38:07 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Jeff...
    >
    >This rant by Mikey (The last race was held blah blah...) is a direct cut n paste from a letter, by
    >him, back in 2001.
    >
    >http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ebrpd16.htm See para 2 & 3
    >
    >Pete
    >
    You were expecting an original thought?

    Mikey's need for attention seems far more important than protecting the environment.

    Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
     
  5. Yager

    Yager Guest

    Mike. Today I went for a 50km mountain bike ride through a forest park north of where I live. It's
    legal for Mt. bikes to be there, as well as trail bikes and 4wd. Guess what Mikey, you'll never
    believe this but it was amazing. I rode, fell and carried my bike over those 50km and whilst we were
    doing so we were discussing how the native bush there was surprisingly abundant especially as the
    area is partly used for pine tree (which aren't native) logging. I also noticed a few native birds,
    which are unfortunately not as common as one would like, and the sound of the cicadas was deafening.
    The weather made it an amazing day and when we reached the high tops you could see right out to the
    coast and the islands just off it. We found this fantastic deep water hole in a river surrounded by
    native bush right in the heart of the hills. A few tracks of mountain bike tyres could be seen in
    the mud on the track. In fact mountain bikers are the few that actually get to experience this part
    of the park.

    Now by doing this were we not enjoying nature?

    Mike, seriously, how can you tell us that we don't enjoy the scenery. Don't even try to use your
    lame excuse of me being a liar and actually answer the question sensibly. You "apparently" have a
    phd so prove it.

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    > >"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days
    later,
    > to document the damage that was done to the park. The race course was
    twenty
    > miles long, so I knew I couldn't possibly hike it in a day. Consequently I borrowed a friend's
    > mountain bike. It was lucky that I did, because I
    discovered
    > that, contrary to what the mountain bikers claim, riding a bike off of
    paved
    > roads is no fun at all! I rode only on fire roads, but even there, I was continually subject to
    > violent jarring, due to the hoof- and tire-pocked "washboard" surface of the road. (I know that
    > there are bikes with a
    so-called
    > "suspension", but there is no way to make a ride like that "smooth" or enjoyable.) Not only was
    > the ride physically very unpleasant, but having to
    continually
    > watch the trail and try to control the bike meant that it was impossible
    to
    > enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of nature. So much for
    the
    > mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!"
    >
    >
    > >My comments.
    >
    > >First: Just because YOU cannot control your bike
    >
    > I didn'a say that, liar. I said that controlling the bike takes one's
    attention
    > away from nature. That's obvious.
    >
    > > and enjoy mountain biking doesn't mean that ALL mountain bikers are
    > out-of-control
    >
    > I didn't say that, liar. Why do mountain bikers have so much trouble
    telling the
    > truth?????
    >
    > >and do not enjoy their outdoor experience.
    >
    > I never said that, liar. I said that they are less aware of their
    surroundings
    > than a hiker.
    >
    > > Every trail ride that I have ever done is filled with enjoyment and
    > opportunities to enjoy nature - clean air, no cars, watching birds... this
    is
    > not the sole realm of the hiker.
    >
    > But MOST of your attention is necessarily directed to controlling the bike
    and
    > not crashing. That is UNAVOIDABLE, when on a bike.
    >
    >
    > >Second: The day that hikers give up their hiking boots and hike barefoot,
    > that's the day that I'll throw away my mountain bike.
    >
    > There's no comparison between the impacts of flat-soled (or even lugged)
    shoes &
    > knobby mountain bike tires. Besides, there ARE hikers who hike barefoot.
    >
    > > Everyone needs mechanical assistance to "enjoy" their outdoor
    experience,
    >
    > A bike doesn't help one enjoy nature. It actually INTERFERES with the
    enjoyment
    > of nature, as I explained. Try telling the truth for once.
    >
    > > at the expense of the soil that we tread upon. Hikers are no different
    despite
    > their continual finger-pointing.
    >
    > Weren't you just pointing your finger at hikers, hypocrite?
    >
    >
    > >JMJ
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    > help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    >
    > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  6. On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:29 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote:

    > At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    >>"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days later,
    > to document the damage that was done to the park. The race course was twenty miles long, so I knew
    > I couldn't possibly hike it in a day. Consequently I borrowed a friend's mountain bike. It was
    > lucky that I did, because I discovered that, contrary to what the mountain bikers claim, riding a
    > bike off of paved roads is no fun at all! I rode only on fire roads, but even there, I was
    > continually subject to violent jarring, due to the hoof- and tire-pocked "washboard" surface of
    > the road. (I know that there are bikes with a so-called "suspension", but there is no way to make
    > a ride like that "smooth" or enjoyable.) Not only was the ride physically very unpleasant, but
    > having to continually watch the trail and try to control the bike meant that it was impossible to
    > enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of nature. So much for the mountain bikers'
    > claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!"
    >

    I don't like it so it should be banned! WAAAH!

    Believe or not, some of us *like* the "violent jarring" and find it enjoyable.... And my bike has a
    real suspension, not a "so-called" one.

    This post is really funny. It's pathetic, but funny. "I'm ignorant, I know nothing, I hated it,
    so ban it."

    I guess the "hidden" point is that a) mountain biking is no fun at all, b) mountain bikers claim to
    enjoy it, c) .:. all mountain bikers are liers. QED.

    Now you're reaching, Mikey. Surely you can do better than that.

    :)

    --Kamus

    --
    o__ | If you're old, eat right and ride a decent bike. ,>/'_ | Q. (_)\(_) | Usenet posting`
     
  7. Peter H

    Peter H Guest

    Gary S. wrote:

    >On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:38:07 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>Jeff...
    >>
    >>This rant by Mikey (The last race was held blah blah...) is a direct cut n paste from a letter, by
    >>him, back in 2001.
    >>
    >>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ebrpd16.htm See para 2 & 3
    >>
    >>Pete
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >You were expecting an original thought?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    You were expecting thought?

    Pete H

    --
    You can say many things better in French than in any other language, but you still need to know how.
    J. Gould
     
  8. Peter H

    Peter H Guest

    Yager wrote:

    >Mike. Today I went for a 50km mountain bike ride through a forest park north of where I live. ....
    >
    >Now by doing this were we not enjoying nature?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Keep in mind the two rules that govern these threads.

    If you disagree with something MV says, you are by definition a typical mountain biker.

    If MV disagrees with something you've said, you are by definition a liar.

    Pete H

    --
    You can say many things better in French than in any other language, but you still need to know how.
    J. Gould
     
  9. Kamus says:

    >Now you're reaching, Mikey. Surely you can do better than that.

    Sadly, no.
     
  10. Gary S .

    Gary S . Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:01:03 -0500, Kamus of Kadizhar
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:29 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >
    >> At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    >>>"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days later,
    >> Not only was the ride physically very unpleasant, but having to continually watch the trail and
    >> try to control the bike meant that it was impossible to enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle
    >> sounds of nature. So much for the mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!"
    >>
    >
    >I don't like it so it should be banned! WAAAH!
    >
    >Believe or not, some of us *like* the "violent jarring" and find it enjoyable.... And my bike has a
    >real suspension, not a "so-called" one.
    >
    >This post is really funny. It's pathetic, but funny. "I'm ignorant, I know nothing, I hated it,
    >so ban it."
    >
    >I guess the "hidden" point is that a) mountain biking is no fun at all, b) mountain bikers claim to
    >enjoy it, c) .:. all mountain bikers are liers. QED.
    >
    >Now you're reaching, Mikey. Surely you can do better than that.
    >
    This is the same guy who is gleeful every time a mountain biker is seriously injured or killed, no
    matter the cause, and cheers on those who claim to boobytrap mtn bike trails.

    He has zero empathy for humans. At the same time, he wants all humans to respect him and his views.

    His goals after banning mountain biking world-wide are to ban all recreation or other use of any
    area which was once wilderness, and ultimately to remove humans from most of the Earth, if not
    completely wipe out the human race except for himself.

    Google his stuff yourself, or read his website of his opinion pieces disguised as science. On second
    thought, he isn't worth the time.

    Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
     
  11. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:33:56 +0000, Gary S. wrote:

    > His goals after banning mountain biking world-wide are to ban all recreation or other use of any
    > area which was once wilderness, and ultimately to remove humans from most of the Earth, if not
    > completely wipe out the human race except for himself.
    >
    > Google his stuff yourself, or read his website of his opinion pieces disguised as science. On
    > second thought, he isn't worth the time.

    Oh, I know. I'm just baiting the troll. It's a bad habit I have.

    --Kamus
     
  12. Mean Old Man

    Mean Old Man Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:33:56 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:01:03 -0500, Kamus of Kadizhar <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:29 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >>
    >>> At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    >>>>"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days later,
    >>> Not only was the ride physically very unpleasant, but having to continually watch the trail and
    >>> try to control the bike meant that it was impossible to enjoy the scenery or listen to the
    >>> subtle sounds of nature. So much for the mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy
    >>> nature"!"
    >>>
    >>
    >>I don't like it so it should be banned! WAAAH!
    >>
    >>Believe or not, some of us *like* the "violent jarring" and find it enjoyable.... And my bike has
    >>a real suspension, not a "so-called" one.
    >>
    >>This post is really funny. It's pathetic, but funny. "I'm ignorant, I know nothing, I hated it, so
    >>ban it."
    >>
    >>I guess the "hidden" point is that a) mountain biking is no fun at all, b) mountain bikers claim
    >>to enjoy it, c) .:. all mountain bikers are liers. QED.
    >>
    >>Now you're reaching, Mikey. Surely you can do better than that.
    >>
    >This is the same guy who is gleeful every time a mountain biker is seriously injured or killed, no
    >matter the cause, and cheers on those who claim to boobytrap mtn bike trails.
    >
    >He has zero empathy for humans. At the same time, he wants all humans to respect him and his views.
    >
    >His goals after banning mountain biking world-wide are to ban all recreation or other use of any
    >area which was once wilderness, and ultimately to remove humans from most of the Earth, if not
    >completely wipe out the human race except for himself.
    >
    >Google his stuff yourself, or read his website of his opinion pieces disguised as science. On
    >second thought, he isn't worth the time.
    >

    Oh, I don't know about that. I see a Star Trek Movie in his rantings "The Attack of the Vandemans"
    about a group of rich ELF and PETA sponsered space brats who have time traveled back to 21st century
    Earth to wipe out all industrial developement, and re-establish the Cult of the Running Bare. Can
    Janeway and Riker stop them before nudity overcomes the Federation? Will Humankind be hurled back to
    the Stone Age? Will the UPN ratings Jump? Stay Tuned!

    <CLICK!> (Presses off button on the remote control and goes to throw a Bear Steak on his whale oil-
    fired grill.)

    I've already registered this scenario with the copyright office!

    Seriously, Mike is one of the few people around that makes the "Enough Already" fellow
    seem moderate.

    See Ya!

    MOM

    >Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    >------------------------------------------------
    >at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
    >
    >Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
     
  13. Gary S .

    Gary S . Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:49:55 -0500, Kamus of Kadizhar
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:33:56 +0000, Gary S. wrote:
    >
    >> Google his stuff yourself, or read his website of his opinion pieces disguised as science. On
    >> second thought, he isn't worth the time.
    >
    >Oh, I know. I'm just baiting the troll. It's a bad habit I have.
    >
    >--Kamus

    I think a bunch of us are hooked on baiting him.

    Maybe there is a 12 step program, or something like Synanon.

    Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
     
  14. On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:17:36 -0800, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:

    .Dear Mr. Vandeman, .Could you PLEASE at least try to make it possible to discern which comments
    .are yours and which are someone else's?

    That should be obvious to any moron.

    .In the following exchange, it appears that YOU went for a bike ride in a .Park a few days after an
    event was held there. It also appears that YOU do .not actually enjoy riding a bike,

    Learn to READ: "riding a bike off of paved roads is no fun at all!"

    and that the most significant thing you .bring up is just how uncomfortable mountain bike riding
    really is. I have .news for you, just because YOU don't like to ride a bike is no reason for
    .everybody else to not enjoy riding a bike. It appears by your own comments .(as I said, it is
    difficult to tell if it was you riding the bike or .somebody else), that you are a wuss because you
    can not tolerate precisely .the part of the sport that most people are attracted to the sport for.

    The pain? BS.

    .Many, if not all, mountain bike riders will stop at the most remote spots to .have a dirnk of water
    and eat a sandwich. It is in these remote locations .that they get the full enjoyment of the trip.

    So they miss 99% of it, JUST AS I SAID.

    While the actual riding part .is being undertaken, they simply enjoy the fresh air and the view of
    the .distant hills, forests, and mesas.

    BS. You can't enjoy "distant views" without crashing.

    They may or may not observe things that .are just a few feet away, but what concern is it of yours
    that they look at .the immediate vicinity of the trail, or look miles across the valley floor .to
    the beauty on the other side? Just because your personal choice is to .look directly at your feet
    as you walk, other's personal choice is to look .at the magnificant views that stretch for miles
    and miles. Since the view of .miles and miles away does not change quickly, then it does not take
    constant .attention to enjoy.

    So they miss 99% of it, JUST AS I SAID.

    .There is no truth whatsoever to your claim that bikers are not in tune with .their surroundings, or
    are less aware of them than a hiker. Indeed, it isn't .even important if the level of awareness is
    the same or different. Hikers .themselves have different levels of awareness among themselves, and
    it is .entirely likely that a hiker can have less awareness of his surroundings .than a bike rider.

    BS. Impossible, for the reasons I stated.

    .<end top post> . . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    .news:[email protected]... .> At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    .> >"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days .later, .> to document
    the damage that was done to the park. The race course was .twenty .> miles long, so I knew I
    couldn't possibly hike it in a day. Consequently I .> borrowed a friend's mountain bike. It was
    lucky that I did, because I .discovered .> that, contrary to what the mountain bikers claim, riding
    a bike off of .paved .> roads is no fun at all! I rode only on fire roads, but even there, I was .>
    continually subject to violent jarring, due to the hoof- and tire-pocked .> "washboard" surface of
    the road. (I know that there are bikes with a .so-called .> "suspension", but there is no way to
    make a ride like that "smooth" or .> enjoyable.) .> Not only was the ride physically very
    unpleasant, but having to .continually .> watch the trail and try to control the bike meant that it
    was impossible .to .> enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of nature. So much for .the
    .> mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!" .> .> .> >My comments. .> .>
    >First: Just because YOU cannot control your bike .> .> I didn'a say that, liar. I said that
    controlling the bike takes one's .attention .> away from nature. That's obvious. .> .> > and enjoy
    mountain biking doesn't mean that ALL mountain bikers are .> out-of-control .> .> I didn't say that,
    liar. Why do mountain bikers have so much trouble .telling the .> truth????? .> .> >and do not enjoy
    their outdoor experience. .> .> I never said that, liar. I said that they are less aware of their
    .surroundings .> than a hiker. .> .> > Every trail ride that I have ever done is filled with
    enjoyment and .> opportunities to enjoy nature - clean air, no cars, watching birds... this .is .>
    not the sole realm of the hiker. .> .> But MOST of your attention is necessarily directed to
    controlling the bike .and .> not crashing. That is UNAVOIDABLE, when on a bike. .> .> .> >Second:
    The day that hikers give up their hiking boots and hike barefoot, .> that's the day that I'll throw
    away my mountain bike. .> .> There's no comparison between the impacts of flat-soled (or even
    lugged) .shoes & .> knobby mountain bike tires. Besides, there ARE hikers who hike barefoot. .> .> >
    Everyone needs mechanical assistance to "enjoy" their outdoor .experience, .> .> A bike doesn't help
    one enjoy nature. It actually INTERFERES with the .enjoyment .> of nature, as I explained. Try
    telling the truth for once. .> .> > at the expense of the soil that we tread upon. Hikers are no
    different .despite .> their continual finger-pointing. .> .> Weren't you just pointing your finger
    at hikers, hypocrite? .> .> .> >JMJ .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
    off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
    auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  15. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:26:39 +1300, "Yager" <[email protected]> wrote:

    .Mike. Today I went for a 50km mountain bike ride through a forest park north .of where I live. It's
    legal for Mt. bikes to be there, as well as trail .bikes and 4wd. Guess what Mikey, you'll never
    believe this but it was .amazing. I rode, fell and carried my bike over those 50km and whilst we
    were .doing so we were discussing how the native bush there was surprisingly .abundant especially as
    the area is partly used for pine tree (which aren't .native) logging. I also noticed a few native
    birds, which are unfortunately .not as common as one would like, and the sound of the cicadas was
    deafening. .The weather made it an amazing day and when we reached the high tops you .could see
    right out to the coast and the islands just off it. We found this .fantastic deep water hole in a
    river surrounded by native bush right in the .heart of the hills. A few tracks of mountain bike
    tyres could be seen in the .mud on the track. In fact mountain bikers are the few that actually get
    to .experience this part of the park. . .Now by doing this were we not enjoying nature?

    Not as much as any hiker. You miss 99% of it. What you are crowing about is actually HARMING the
    environment.

    .Mike, seriously, how can you tell us that we don't enjoy the scenery. Don't .even try to use your
    lame excuse of me being a liar and actually answer the .question sensibly. You "apparently" have a
    phd so prove it. . . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    .news:[email protected]... .> At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    .> >"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days .later, .> to document
    the damage that was done to the park. The race course was .twenty .> miles long, so I knew I
    couldn't possibly hike it in a day. Consequently I .> borrowed a friend's mountain bike. It was
    lucky that I did, because I .discovered .> that, contrary to what the mountain bikers claim, riding
    a bike off of .paved .> roads is no fun at all! I rode only on fire roads, but even there, I was .>
    continually subject to violent jarring, due to the hoof- and tire-pocked .> "washboard" surface of
    the road. (I know that there are bikes with a .so-called .> "suspension", but there is no way to
    make a ride like that "smooth" or .> enjoyable.) .> Not only was the ride physically very
    unpleasant, but having to .continually .> watch the trail and try to control the bike meant that it
    was impossible .to .> enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of nature. So much for .the
    .> mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!" .> .> .> >My comments. .> .>
    >First: Just because YOU cannot control your bike .> .> I didn'a say that, liar. I said that
    controlling the bike takes one's .attention .> away from nature. That's obvious. .> .> > and enjoy
    mountain biking doesn't mean that ALL mountain bikers are .> out-of-control .> .> I didn't say that,
    liar. Why do mountain bikers have so much trouble .telling the .> truth????? .> .> >and do not enjoy
    their outdoor experience. .> .> I never said that, liar. I said that they are less aware of their
    .surroundings .> than a hiker. .> .> > Every trail ride that I have ever done is filled with
    enjoyment and .> opportunities to enjoy nature - clean air, no cars, watching birds... this .is .>
    not the sole realm of the hiker. .> .> But MOST of your attention is necessarily directed to
    controlling the bike .and .> not crashing. That is UNAVOIDABLE, when on a bike. .> .> .> >Second:
    The day that hikers give up their hiking boots and hike barefoot, .> that's the day that I'll throw
    away my mountain bike. .> .> There's no comparison between the impacts of flat-soled (or even
    lugged) .shoes & .> knobby mountain bike tires. Besides, there ARE hikers who hike barefoot. .> .> >
    Everyone needs mechanical assistance to "enjoy" their outdoor .experience, .> .> A bike doesn't help
    one enjoy nature. It actually INTERFERES with the .enjoyment .> of nature, as I explained. Try
    telling the truth for once. .> .> > at the expense of the soil that we tread upon. Hikers are no
    different .despite .> their continual finger-pointing. .> .> Weren't you just pointing your finger
    at hikers, hypocrite? .> .> .> >JMJ .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
    off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
    auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  16. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:04:13 -0500, Peter H <[email protected]> wrote:

    .Yager wrote: . .>Mike. Today I went for a 50km mountain bike ride through a forest park north .>of
    where I live. .... .> .>Now by doing this were we not enjoying nature? .> .> .> .> .Keep in mind the
    two rules that govern these threads. . .If you disagree with something MV says, you are by
    definition a typical .mountain biker. . .If MV disagrees with something you've said, you are by
    definition a liar.

    You are lying.

    .Pete H

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  17. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:33:56 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:01:03 -0500, Kamus of Kadizhar .<[email protected]> wrote: . .>On Mon, 23
    Feb 2004 17:05:29 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote: .> .>> At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote:
    .>>>"The last race was held last September 23. I visited the park four days later, .>> Not only was
    the ride physically very unpleasant, but having to continually .>> watch the trail and try to
    control the bike meant that it was impossible to .>> enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle
    sounds of nature. So much for the .>> mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy
    nature"!" .>> .> .>I don't like it so it should be banned! WAAAH! .> .>Believe or not, some of us
    *like* the "violent jarring" and find it .>enjoyable.... And my bike has a real suspension, not a
    "so-called" one. .> .>This post is really funny. It's pathetic, but funny. "I'm ignorant, I .>know
    nothing, I hated it, so ban it." .> .>I guess the "hidden" point is that a) mountain biking is no
    fun at all, b) .>mountain bikers claim to enjoy it, c) .:. all mountain bikers are liers. .>QED. .>
    .>Now you're reaching, Mikey. Surely you can do better than that. .> .This is the same guy who is
    gleeful every time a mountain biker is .seriously injured or killed, no matter the cause, and cheers
    on those .who claim to boobytrap mtn bike trails. . .He has zero empathy for humans. At the same
    time, he wants all humans .to respect him and his views.

    P.S. I actually care MORE about mountain bikers as humans than you do, since I oppose the sport that
    kills them, whereas YOU SUPPORT it! Hypocrite!

    .His goals after banning mountain biking world-wide are to ban all .recreation or other use of any
    area which was once wilderness, and .ultimately to remove humans from most of the Earth, if not
    completely .wipe out the human race except for himself. . .Google his stuff yourself, or read his
    website of his opinion pieces .disguised as science.

    Good advice! Thanks. :)

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  18. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:24:09 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:38:07 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote: . .>Jeff... .> .>This rant by Mikey
    (The last race was held blah blah...) is a direct cut n .>paste from a letter, by him, back in 2001.
    .> .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ebrpd16.htm .>See para 2 & 3 .> .>Pete .> .You were expecting
    an original thought? . .Mikey's need for attention seems far more important than protecting .the
    environment.

    Right. And thanks for accommodating me! :)

    .Happy trails, .Gary (net.yogi.bear) .------------------------------------------------ .at the 51st
    percentile of ursine intelligence . .Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA .Please reply to:
    garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  19. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:04:49 GMT, mean old man <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    .On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:33:56 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote: . .>On Tue, 24 Feb 2004
    06:01:03 -0500, Kamus of Kadizhar .><[email protected]> wrote: .> .>>On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:29
    +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote: .>> .>>> At 01:27 PM 2/23/04 +0000, john jans wrote: .>>>>"The last race
    was held last September 23. I visited the park four days later, .>>> Not only was the ride
    physically very unpleasant, but having to continually .>>> watch the trail and try to control the
    bike meant that it was impossible to .>>> enjoy the scenery or listen to the subtle sounds of
    nature. So much for the .>>> mountain bikers' claims that they use bikes to "enjoy nature"!" .>>>
    .>> .>>I don't like it so it should be banned! WAAAH! .>> .>>Believe or not, some of us *like* the
    "violent jarring" and find it .>>enjoyable.... And my bike has a real suspension, not a "so-called"
    one. .>> .>>This post is really funny. It's pathetic, but funny. "I'm ignorant, I .>>know nothing, I
    hated it, so ban it." .>> .>>I guess the "hidden" point is that a) mountain biking is no fun at all,
    b) .>>mountain bikers claim to enjoy it, c) .:. all mountain bikers are liers. .>>QED. .>> .>>Now
    you're reaching, Mikey. Surely you can do better than that. .>> .>This is the same guy who is
    gleeful every time a mountain biker is .>seriously injured or killed, no matter the cause, and
    cheers on those .>who claim to boobytrap mtn bike trails. .> .>He has zero empathy for humans. At
    the same time, he wants all humans .>to respect him and his views. .> .>His goals after banning
    mountain biking world-wide are to ban all .>recreation or other use of any area which was once
    wilderness, and .>ultimately to remove humans from most of the Earth, if not completely .>wipe out
    the human race except for himself. .> .>Google his stuff yourself, or read his website of his
    opinion pieces .>disguised as science. On second thought, he isn't worth the time. .> . .Oh, I don't
    know about that. I see a Star Trek Movie in his rantings ."The Attack of the Vandemans" about a
    group of rich ELF and PETA .sponsered space brats who have time traveled back to 21st century .Earth
    to wipe out all industrial developement, and re-establish the .Cult of the Running Bare. Can Janeway
    and Riker stop them before .nudity overcomes the Federation? Will Humankind be hurled back to the
    .Stone Age? Will the UPN ratings Jump? Stay Tuned!

    Good idea! Thanks.

    .<CLICK!> (Presses off button on the remote control and goes to throw a .Bear Steak on his whale oil-
    fired grill.) . .I've already registered this scenario with the copyright office! . .Seriously, Mike
    is one of the few people around that makes the "Enough .Already" fellow seem moderate. . . .See Ya!
    . .MOM . . .>Happy trails, .>Gary (net.yogi.bear) .>------------------------------------------------
    .>at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence .> .>Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA .>Please
    reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  20. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:26:21 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:49:55 -0500, Kamus of Kadizhar .<[email protected]> wrote: . .>On Tue, 24
    Feb 2004 13:33:56 +0000, Gary S. wrote: .> .>> Google his stuff yourself, or read his website of his
    opinion pieces .>> disguised as science. On second thought, he isn't worth the time. .> .>Oh, I
    know. I'm just baiting the troll. It's a bad habit I have. .> .>--Kamus . .I think a bunch of us are
    hooked on baiting him.

    Yes. Thanks for the attention! It's good to know that even when I'm not around, you guys are hooked
    on talking about me!

    .Maybe there is a 12 step program, or something like Synanon.

    ONE step: stop mountain biking.

    .Happy trails, .Gary (net.yogi.bear) .------------------------------------------------ .at the 51st
    percentile of ursine intelligence . .Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA .Please reply to:
    garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
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