U.S. Accused Of More Abuses



Carrera

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The Bush Administration is now really beginning to feel the heat. First you have the mass protests in Italy over the gunning down of a car that was driving an Italian hostage to safety. Then you have the accusations that Moslem religious books were flushed down latrines in Guantanamo Bay. Now there are further allegations of abuse in Afghanistan and the B.B.C. reports the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4568031.stm

"The new allegations relate to the level of abuse the two prisoners - known only as Dilawar and Habibullah - are said to have been subjected to.

'Innocent man'

Dilawar, 22, was said to have been chained to a ceiling by his wrists for four days, and then beaten on his legs more than 100 times during a 24-hour period.

He was being questioned about an attack on a US air base, but the report says most interrogators believed him to be an innocent taxi driver who simply drove past at the time of the attack.

Other reported abuses included:

A prisoner being forced to kiss the boots of interrogators
Another prisoner being forced to pick plastic bottle tops out of a drum filled with excrement and water
A female interrogator stepping on a man's neck and kicking another in the genitals."
 
First you have the mass protests in Italy over the gunning down of a car that was driving an Italian hostage to safety.

BAHHH!

If the wimpy Italians weren't surreptitiously paying off kidnappers MILLIONS of DOLLARS so that these radical-scum could continue to fund their cowardly carbombs there wouldn't have been a problem.


But Italy was EMBARRASSED by their cravenly payout, so they kept it a secret from US security.


That's a dangerous game of roulette, that they lost.
 
coolworx said:
BAHHH!

If the wimpy Italians weren't surreptitiously paying off kidnappers MILLIONS of DOLLARS so that these radical-scum could continue to fund their cowardly carbombs there wouldn't have been a problem.


But Italy was EMBARRASSED by their cravenly payout, so they kept it a secret from US security.

They informed the US command of their movements, the US command failed to pass that information on to the checkpoint. Read the famous DoD investigation document and learn, alternatively carry on making a fool of yourself. You will also learn from that document that the figures relating to the number of attacks on US troops are far higher than reported.
 
The woman whose bodyguard died protecting her from bullets believes the rescue operation by Italian Security was sabotaged. She claims that had the troops really wished to stop the car, it could have been stopped without killing people inside the vehice. So, the Italians are furious and the Italian President could even suffer election defeat for Italy's involvement in the war.
I think the suicide bombers within Iraq are of different groupings. Some are hard-core fanatics and others are former Iraqis who have been left with nothing in the new Iraq or may have lost family e.t.c. There are groups acting out of different motives. These individuals remember a time when Iraq was as prosperous as modern day Greece but has now been ruined by foreign interference and greed for oil, sanctions e.t.c.
Putin made similar mistakes in Chechnya. His troops simply declared every male Chechnyan over 18 a terrorist and were too heavy handed. This is why Russian borders are now becoming more unstable and open to extremist groups. Both Bush and Putin have helped blow the winds of extremism and we are reaping the harvest.

coolworx said:
BAHHH!

If the wimpy Italians weren't surreptitiously paying off kidnappers MILLIONS of DOLLARS so that these radical-scum could continue to fund their cowardly carbombs there wouldn't have been a problem.


But Italy was EMBARRASSED by their cravenly payout, so they kept it a secret from US security.


That's a dangerous game of roulette, that they lost.
 
TJOZ said:
Thought this was a cycling forum????? Get over it..............
idiot. Like the soapbox or leave it. The soapbox is only loosely correlated with cycling... it is a place for insane political outcasts to yell incoherently at passerby on the information superhighway. :D

Wot do you want the soapbox to be like anyway?

I would not come here if "things that **** me off about Campagnolo owners" was a hot thread.
 
darkboong said:
They informed the US command of their movements, the US command failed to pass that information on to the checkpoint. Read the famous DoD investigation document and learn, alternatively carry on making a fool of yourself. You will also learn from that document that the figures relating to the number of attacks on US troops are far higher than reported.

Well said.

The fact of the matter is that the US and George Bush are now a lame duck.

One the one hand there is now almost daily reports of issues of prisoner deaths and abuse (Bagram), torture (Bagram, Guantanemo and Abu Ghuraib), Desecration of the Koran, major civil unrest (in Afghanistan), practically civil way (in Iraq), alienation of so-called allies (Italy, Poland).

The US is so embroiled now trying to defend itself in the media and on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, that the mud has stuck.
US foreign policy is in tatters frankly.

My worry is that when the alarm sounds again, that the international community will not be willing to respond.
 
It was a gross mistake to opt out of geneva convention norms during the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. What happens when you conscript inexperienced recruits to fight a war but have them understand the geneva convention isn't relevant? Answer: embarrassment and abuses on a wide scale and passing the buck down the line, of course.
I think the only ally the U.S. has left is Vladimir Putin who has made similar mistakes by being too heavy handed in Chechnya (thus alienating those Chechnyans who were willing to negotiate).
My view is that Bin Laden has always wanted Bush right where he is now, in the White House. There is no better way to push forward an agenda of Islamic revolutions than by flashing images of Iraqi/Afgahan prisoner abuses and showing photos of Fallujah e.t.c. That video released at election time was purposefully designed to get Bush back into office.

limerickman said:
Well said.

The fact of the matter is that the US and George Bush are now a lame duck.

One the one hand there is now almost daily reports of issues of prisoner deaths and abuse (Bagram), torture (Bagram, Guantanemo and Abu Ghuraib), Desecration of the Koran, major civil unrest (in Afghanistan), practically civil way (in Iraq), alienation of so-called allies (Italy, Poland).

The US is so embroiled now trying to defend itself in the media and on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, that the mud has stuck.
US foreign policy is in tatters frankly.

My worry is that when the alarm sounds again, that the international community will not be willing to respond.
 
Carrera said:
It was a gross mistake to opt out of geneva convention norms during the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. What happens when you conscript inexperienced recruits to fight a war but have them understand the geneva convention isn't relevant? Answer: embarrassment and abuses on a wide scale and passing the buck down the line, of course.
I think the only ally the U.S. has left is Vladimir Putin who has made similar mistakes by being too heavy handed in Chechnya (thus alienating those Chechnyans who were willing to negotiate).
My view is that Bin Laden has always wanted Bush right where he is now, in the White House. There is no better way to push forward an agenda of Islamic revolutions than by flashing images of Iraqi/Afgahan prisoner abuses and showing photos of Fallujah e.t.c. That video released at election time was purposefully designed to get Bush back into office.

I agree with you - 100%.
The perception - rightly or wrongly as evidenced by the torture and death of prisoners and the massive caualties of Iraqi's - is that the USA doesn't give a fig about Islam or Muslims.
To that end, BinLaden and the people fighting the USA, have boxed them in to a corner.
 
I always somehow thought, when the war was just beginning, that there was no realistic advantage to any single Iraqi supporting the U.S. invasion. Iraqis were basically told to stay indoors till Saddam was overthrown since their apparent repression under Saddam was going to end. On the surface, Bush was saying his quarrel was with Hussein, not the people of Iraq.
The only time I had real doubts was when the Iraqis were rejoicing and pulling down Saddam's statue and I wondered whether I had gotten it wrong.
But the impression I get now is that any plan that seeks to impose a government on a people that doesn't genuinely represent their interests is doomed to fail. That is, you have situations where the so-called elected government makes a decision the Administration might not like and is then over-ruled. It's clear that such constitutes a puppet government, not a representative democracy.
The danger here is that those Iraqis who have trusted foreign intervention have witnessed a rise in malnutrition amongst children, electricity and fuel shortages, bandits and terrorists on the streets and flagging hospitals. The average Iraqi is possibly worse off than under Saddam.
Of course this was bound to happen. The idea that a Christian fundamentalist pro-Israeli government could successfully take into account the values and concerns of a dark-skinned Arab people is dixi land. This is especially so, given the fact European and American whites have a history of slavery and colonialism behind them that still hasn't been completely shaken off since the civil rights movement of the sixties.


limerickman said:
I agree with you - 100%.
The perception - rightly or wrongly as evidenced by the torture and death of prisoners and the massive caualties of Iraqi's - is that the USA doesn't give a fig about Islam or Muslims.
To that end, BinLaden and the people fighting the USA, have boxed them in to a corner.
 
Carrera said:
I always somehow thought, when the war was just beginning, that there was no realistic advantage to any single Iraqi supporting the U.S. invasion. Iraqis were basically told to stay indoors till Saddam was overthrown since their apparent repression under Saddam was going to end. On the surface, Bush was saying his quarrel was with Hussein, not the people of Iraq.
The only time I had real doubts was when the Iraqis were rejoicing and pulling down Saddam's statue and I wondered whether I had gotten it wrong.
But the impression I get now is that any plan that seeks to impose a government on a people that doesn't genuinely represent their interests is doomed to fail. That is, you have situations where the so-called elected government makes a decision the Administration might not like and is then over-ruled. It's clear that such constitutes a puppet government, not a representative democracy.
The danger here is that those Iraqis who have trusted foreign intervention have witnessed a rise in malnutrition amongst children, electricity and fuel shortages, bandits and terrorists on the streets and flagging hospitals. The average Iraqi is possibly worse off than under Saddam.
Of course this was bound to happen. The idea that a Christian fundamentalist pro-Israeli government could successfully take into account the values and concerns of a dark-skinned Arab people is dixi land. This is especially so, given the fact European and American whites have a history of slavery and colonialism behind them that still hasn't been completely shaken off since the civil rights movement of the sixties.


We had here over the weekend, a questions and answer session with Colonel Tim Collins of the Royal Irish Regiment.
if you recall Collins delivered a speech to his troops before they went to in battle in southern Iraq which was given worldwide coverage due to it's honesty and for the way he asked his troops to treat the enemy.

Collins is very critical of the decision to go to war and says that before any decision is taken to go to war, a decision on securing the peace needs to be in place first.
His view is that the politicians did not know what to do to secure the peace.
he also said that the decision to go to war was stupid both in principle and in operation.
He said Iraq posed no threat internationally and indeed regionally.
He said that the Americans in launching a war were not prepared to commit sufficient manpower to secure the peace.
He said that 160k men is insufficient. He reckons that it should be doubled.
He also said that the local Iraqi's respected the British Army because the BA
is a professional army.
He said all of his officers were first class men trained at Sandhurst.
he said the American reservists have neither the ability or the training to engage local people and to build up good relations.
 
Yes, he became very critical of Blair too.
To my mind the best practical way to solve the crisis would have been to elect John Kerry. I believe Kerry would have immediately gone to the U.N. and attained full support from Europe and other countries. He'd have gone to work electing a U.N. approved democratic government within Iraq that might have been trusted by the Iraqis. He'd have introduced normal standards for POW's and would have pulled inexperienced American conscripts out of the ground war which he opposed from the beginning.
I heard John Kerry speak a lot and he seemed to me to have been the right guy to get in and level-headed too. But that's democracy and one can only hope Bush will learn from his blunders and take Madonna's advice, "Let's like get the hell out!"

limerickman said:
We had here over the weekend, a questions and answer session with Colonel Tim Collins of the Royal Irish Regiment.
if you recall Collins delivered a speech to his troops before they went to in battle in southern Iraq which was given worldwide coverage due to it's honesty and for the way he asked his troops to treat the enemy.

Collins is very critical of the decision to go to war and says that before any decision is taken to go to war, a decision on securing the peace needs to be in place first.
His view is that the politicians did not know what to do to secure the peace.
he also said that the decision to go to war was stupid both in principle and in operation.
He said Iraq posed no threat internationally and indeed regionally.
He said that the Americans in launching a war were not prepared to commit sufficient manpower to secure the peace.
He said that 160k men is insufficient. He reckons that it should be doubled.
He also said that the local Iraqi's respected the British Army because the BA
is a professional army.
He said all of his officers were first class men trained at Sandhurst.
he said the American reservists have neither the ability or the training to engage local people and to build up good relations.
 
TJOZ said:
Thought this was a cycling forum????? Get over it..............
Hey you **** head, you aughta know w/ those 4 posts............This is the SOAP BOX goddamn it! You don’t like it then go to the Café, were they talk about.......cycling........you nimrod!:mad:
 
TJOZ said:
Thought this was a cycling forum????? Get over it..............
It's funny...when I first joined this forum I came into the soapbox and posted something very similar to this guy...After reading the "cheerful" :rolleyes: replies and spending more time on the forum to learn how diverse it is and what it was really about is when I became enlightened and perfect!!! :D

Cut them some slack young Velo...be one with the force!!! :)
 
coolworx said:
BAHHH!

If the wimpy Italians weren't surreptitiously paying off kidnappers MILLIONS of DOLLARS so that these radical-scum could continue to fund their cowardly carbombs there wouldn't have been a problem.


But Italy was EMBARRASSED by their cravenly payout, so they kept it a secret from US security.


That's a dangerous game of roulette, that they lost.

I read that post the first time and thought "What an idiot.". Reading it again, I am struck by the fact that you blithely ignore an innocent cab driver getting beaten over 100 times in the space of 24 hours and I think : "What a facist mother---ker sadist.". To put this in context, the guy was chained to the damned ceiling while "servicemen" kicked the hell out of him just to hear him cry out for salvation for a giggle.

On reflection : You are sick. You need help.

I am guessing that you need money too. You consistently deflect attention according to the "Whitehouse Way". How much do you get paid an hour for your Whitehouse shilling ? Whatever it is, it is too much in your case.
 

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