UCI grant Saiz ProTour licence....

[wolfix]

The point of what started your anti LA rant was not if LA doped or not, but that if the TDF was clean 100% , LA still would have been a contender. The other point was that if the other contenders were using EPO, it levels the playing field. And that the use of EPO does turn a non-climber into a climber all by itself.
The LA "Did he or didn't he " has been covered so many times it is now boring......

Citation, please.

Without going back didn't Walsh testify that he never paid the witness, and then later he admitted he did? Something about that goes back to sleazy journalism.

You mean the same Greg Lemond who confronted Dr. Coyle about how increasing cadence when you are at your limits will put you into oxygen debt and cause you to reduce power in order to prevent that? That Greg Lemond? Or do you mean the Greg Lemond who raced against older U.S. riders while being forced to use junior gearing? Or do you mean the Greg Lemond who has disputed Armstrong's claims of power increases due to cadence increases?

Again...... You are jumping to conclusions based on what you are think was said.. What I am saying is that increased cadence does help when the cadence is increased throughout the entire event or riding cycle.. Not just when the rider rides at his limit. Being a ex-sprinter I know what Lemond is referring to. And we are talking about increased cadence helping a rider in the mountains. You are comparing the apples I presented to oranges......[/QUOTE]

In the strange world of Wolfix everyone doped except Armstrong, and pointing out Mickey Mouse amphetamine infractions during the 70s somehow excuses the remote possibility, probably never happened, I dont believe it, he would never do it chance that Armstrong doped.

You need to read closer. It is true that n my strange world I have pointed out many times that the riders[contenders] in the TDF were doped to the gills from the time I started following the sport. But where you are wrong is where I have said that LA is not guilty. What I am saying is that LA had potential for greatness at a early age. Not that he is th eonly rider in the TDF that is clean.

And the use of amphetamines ar far more then an infraction. An overdose of coffee is an infraction. I fully understand the nature of amphetemines.....Real well. And it is far more then just a little helper. And yes, a doping program with EPO is going to do more for a rider then a shot of the magic powder. But if the EPO doping program is available and used by your competitors, where is the advantage to one rider more then another?
I have not apologised for the doping practices of the riders of any generation nor have I said LA would never do that.
But I will say this...... if you thought you were watching the TDF anytime in the last 30 years and was seeing a sport that was not dope riddled, you are delusional..... Everyone likes to claim the Lemond years were dope free. Look at the suspensions of riders during that time. It's just now we have "holier then thou" people wanting to believe their sport is clean. Back then, no one really cared, they just accepted it. Look at the Eddy Merckx worship going on..... He was convicted 3xxx. And I bet you would get down and kiss his ass at Interbike if he asked you to...... [I would]
Lemond never spoke up while riding about the riders around him doping ...... Knettemann, Kuiper, Fignon, Delgado..... until he was no longer competitive. Then he spoke out..... But if you have ever been around Lemond, that is his nature.

 

[fbircher]

There are still too many cycling fans (who should know better) who bury their heads in the sand and pretend that everything's going to be okay. Really people; our sport is a laughing stock. I watch Tours as if watching movies - I suspend my disbelief and go with the lie, the special effects the PEDs paint upon the screen. My cycling hero for many years was Pantani but I know that he used EPO. I also know his main competitors used EPO but it doesn't make it right. The problem is that the connection between myself as a cyclist and the pro racers has gone. We are not in the same game. There are no injections, no transfusions, no pills in my cycling world. I complain about the wind and the cold and the rain (I live in Scotland!) but I do not complain about the ethics code, DNA tests and the 'unfairness' of being a junkie who gets caught in the trap. Stop cheering the cheats or - as Zabel recently warned - our sport will not survive.

Rolfrae, thanks for this post; I share your sentiments 100%. Many posters on this forum come across to me as little more than cheerleaders for “fill-in-the-blank” rider who has been implicated in a potential doping infraction. They bemoan the unfairness of the harsh treatment directed against of their favorite cycling star, while simultaneously applauding that rider’s decision to refuse cooperation with DNA testing. They even promote vast conspiracy theories involving crooked scientists and rigged test results as the reason why the rest of us should consider this reasonable position for their favorite star to take. What criticisms they do have to offer are always directed against the UCI, national federations, team management, doctors, the media, etc. – everybody except the doper on the bike. After reading all these posts, I’m convinced that the cheerleaders amongst us don’t really want to know the truth; they want their favorite riders to go on collecting accolades and avoiding anything that might suspend the fantasy for them. There were 150 bags of doped blood in Fuentes' lab, and these folks are perfectly happy to accept an arrangement under which we'll never know the identity of a single doner.

I only started to follow professional cycling about 10 years ago, after I took up cycling myself and competed in some minor local events. I appreciated how hard competitive cycling could be, and I was amazed at the abilities of professional cyclists relative to my own experience. Having followed the doping scandals of the past few years, I’m now disillusioned towards professional cycling as a legitimate sport that any fan should take seriously. I didn’t watch one minute of this year’s TdF, and my interest in cycling is now focused mostly on my own participation in it. I think it’s past time for fans of cycling to quit idolizing these stars, and recognize that cycling is in an extremely precarious state. I hate to say it, but I think that current circumstances call for “martial law” – i.e., adopting measures that wouldn’t be tolerated under normal circumstances. It’ll either happen, or professional cycling will seriously decline, and end up as something akin to professional wrestling in the US – more of a joke than a real sport – even to the people who watch it.

 

[wolfix]

Cycling is the same : riders can win without doping.
I would suggest that it is probably harder to win in cycling, given cycling's propensity to allow "champions" to dope in recent times (mid-1990's onwards).You should read Mark Scanlon's interview in last weeks Sunday Times.

I agree with you that cycling has allowed drugs to prosper. Who wants to follow a sport like this years TDF? The GT's are a special sport that is a natural for drugs like EPO.
I am of the belief that the doping controls in the GT's are made just for the sake of the fans. I wouldn't doubt that there have been many positive tests and the results were never allowed. That would damage the event....

The other sports you mention are now anywhere near the endurance level of the TDF. And that is where the drugs help.

I think it is impossible to win a GT without doping. [With the setup the GT's have now] I think it is possible to win a one day Classic if you are a specific rider type without doping.

The GT's have too many days of peak output close together to allow a rider to fully rest. And the winning times of the GT's are measured in just a few minutes, if not seconds. One bad day in a GT destroys the chances of a rider.

In a Classic, a sprinter may win...... He uses his natural talent to accomplish the win without expending energy the rest of the day. The same could be said for an all arounder like Zabel or Kelly if the course permits. But if those same riders had to defend their victory day after day as in the GT's, they would struggle and that is where the problem lies.
It used to be said that GT winners had remarkable recuperating powers. And it is probably true. But EPO really helps in the recupe process......And blood boosting.....

I am not defending the doping going on. In a perfect world no one would cheat. But cycling has never been close to being perfect. You need to look back several decades ago to see the nationalistic politics of the sport.There was a time when Italians were not interested or welcome to the TDF and vise versa. A Gt was to showcase the respective countries riders.....

But the witch hunt we have going on now to cleanse the sport is going to destroy it. It is impossible to clean something up after years of looking the other way in one short effort.

They say Americans will lose interest after LA retired. That's not true. Americans have a lot invested in cycling..... Discovery is American money, CSC is American money, and T-MObile has a good portion of it American money. T-Mobiles GM is American. If the sport of Euro cycling continues with the doping problems, don't be surprised if T-Mobile pulls out of Euro cycling and invests in American women cycling with a larger investment.

The sport of cycling is filled with gossip and allegations that get spun out of control. This is the info being fed to the fans. Books like Walsh's do nothing to enhance the sport. They are nothing more then fodder for the internet forums. If a person wants a good book, buy a Graham Watson pictorial book to see the beauty of the sport. Not a book written by a journalist digging through garbage outside a hotel. Or read Samuel Abt's books on the recent history of the sport.

 

[Rolfrae]

Rolfrae, thanks for this post; I share your sentiments 100%. Many posters on this forum come across to me as little more than cheerleaders for “fill-in-the-blank” rider who has been implicated in a potential doping infraction. They bemoan the unfairness of the harsh treatment directed against of their favorite cycling star, while simultaneously applauding that rider’s decision to refuse cooperation with DNA testing. They even promote vast conspiracy theories involving crooked scientists and rigged test results as the reason why the rest of us should consider this reasonable position for their favorite star to take. What criticisms they do have to offer are always directed against the UCI, national federations, team management, doctors, the media, etc. – everybody except the doper on the bike. After reading all these posts, I’m convinced that the cheerleaders amongst us don’t really want to know the truth; they want their favorite riders to go on collecting accolades and avoiding anything that might suspend the fantasy for them. There were 150 bags of doped blood in Fuentes' lab, and these folks are perfectly happy to accept an arrangement under which we'll never know the identity of a single doner.

I only started to follow professional cycling about 10 years ago, after I took up cycling myself and competed in some minor local events. I appreciated how hard competitive cycling could be, and I was amazed at the abilities of professional cyclists relative to my own experience. Having followed the doping scandals of the past few years, I’m now disillusioned towards professional cycling as a legitimate sport that any fan should take seriously. I didn’t watch one minute of this year’s TdF, and my interest in cycling is now focused mostly on my own participation in it. I think it’s past time for fans of cycling to quit idolizing these stars, and recognize that cycling is in an extremely precarious state. I hate to say it, but I think that current circumstances call for “martial law” – i.e., adopting measures that wouldn’t be tolerated under normal circumstances. It’ll either happen, or professional cycling will seriously decline, and end up as something akin to professional wrestling in the US – more of a joke than a real sport – even to the people who watch it.

You know every year or two the French farmers or students have a protest and block the road at the Tour? Maybe we could have a protest against the drug cheats, drag Manolo Saiz' fat **** out of the team car and kick him around until he repented, tell Basso to wip the smug Armstrong-imitating mask off his cheating face. But...I think instead the time has come to switch the TV off in July, go outside and do something less boring instead. Sad, but I am close to giving up on pro-cycling for good. All these idiots on this forum who knock Pat McQuaid and the UCI for "ruining" Ulle/Basso's season. What about the guys in the peleton who have refused to dope and grovel in the cheats wake? Our sport is supposed to be about the strongest man not cleverest doctor.

 

[Rolfrae]

I think it is impossible to win a GT without doping. [With the setup the GT's have now] I think it is possible to win a one day Classic if you are a specific rider type without doping. ...

By this "setup" you mean the one where half the peleton dopes? Bradley Wiggins rode and finished his first Tour this year clean as a f**cking whistle. It is entirely possible to ride and finish a Tour without dope - what is entirely impossible is to ride and win a Tour against the dopers.

 

[wolfix]

By this "setup" you mean the one where half the peleton dopes? Bradley Wiggins rode and finished his first Tour this year clean as a f**cking whistle. It is entirely possible to ride and finish a Tour without dope - what is entirely impossible is to ride and win a Tour against the dopers.

Exactly......My posts were about the top 5 riders or so, not the entire group. I should have been more specific.

Bradley Wiggans is a favorite rider of mine. I have followed British track events for years. I am glad to hear about him being clean. The British may not have much to cheer about on the road, but their track expertise is top shelf. I hope to visit the Manchester velodrome someday.

I believe the Euro GT races have many clean riders. Just not winners. I also believe that many of the dopers in the GT's ride clean most of the year.

 

[wolfix]

You know every year or two the French farmers or students have a protest and block the road at the Tour? Maybe we could have a protest against the drug cheats, drag Manolo Saiz' fat **** out of the team car and kick him around until he repented, tell Basso to wip the smug Armstrong-imitating mask off his cheating face. But...I think instead the time has come to switch the TV off in July, go outside and do something less boring instead. Sad, but I am close to giving up on pro-cycling for good. All these idiots on this forum who knock Pat McQuaid and the UCI for "ruining" Ulle/Basso's season. What about the guys in the peleton who have refused to dope and grovel in the cheats wake? Our sport is supposed to be about the strongest man not cleverest doctor.

I think the Saiz case points out the truth in cycling. The UCI, TDF org, and other powers want this to just go away. They are not shocked by the discovery of the labs.
The UCI/McQuaid situation is tough. They have to please the sponsors and yet they must put on a show to enertain the masses. I personally have not followed Pat McQuaid closely, but on the surface I see nothing he has done wrong. However, I respect Lim's opinion that this man is not good for the sport.
But the problem with crucifying Basso/JU is this....... They are only [possibly] involved in something that has been allowed by the UCI and Co. for years. To have the sport turn overnight against guys like this is wrong.It is not consistent. The sport has used them...... They have reaped the benefits of JU being a winner, and Basso being the next Lance Armstrong. They have reaped many financial benifits of LA's years.

And we have to ask, how much of this is nationalistic politics? Infighting of WADA, ProTour, and the TDF organization?

If you are trully outraged at the sport of cycling, and that is your right as a fan, support the local guys in your area. They need your help. And isn't it really more fun watching personal friends ride a crit then watching a bunch of riders cruise by sunflowers in France on TV?