Ugly Dura Ace Chainset

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Rik O'Shea, Oct 17, 2003.

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  1. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    I think most people missed what is basically different on this model, that which makes it
    unaccustomed and therefore ugly. There is no bolt hole in the center nor a cover for that hole that
    usually contains extraction threads. I suspect it is like a bathing beauty without a navel to some
    observers.

    The beauty in this crank is supposed to be it's solution to the connection between cranks and
    spindle, something that has festered for many years as a trouble spot and failure point. Installing
    and removing cranks is a regular subject here on wreck.bike.

    We see ISIS with a solution, Cannondale with another and Shimano with one that seems to solve two
    problems at once. The crank attachment, which appears to be flawless, and the spindle bearings that
    have often failed in short time. Whether the solution offered stands up in other respects will show
    up in time.

    The potential problems I see are whether the bearings remain fixed in the BB and whether the spindle
    runs inside these bearings without fretting and creaking. We'll have to wait and see. I presume
    enough of these will be in use soon to tell. I never got around to trying their previous model that
    had spline failures for right-foot-forward standees. That is, it had backlash on reverse torque.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     


  2. Basjan

    Basjan Guest

    "Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > Sorry if this thread went a bit far afield. I didn't want to get in a pissing contest.

    Amen
     
  3. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > I suspect it is like a bathing beauty without a navel to some observers.
    >

    Beautifully and aptly phrased!

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  4. Richard Chan

    Richard Chan Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    < ... Lance won the tour, in spite of mechanical failures such as not being able to shift out of low
    gear on a mountain stage and proceeding to spin to a standing victory.

    I haven't seen the tape/closeups but this is highly unlikely scenerio. Even if his right shifter
    went bad (stuck in one position, highly unlikely), he still can use his front (downtube shifter) to
    shift onto the big ring and gets all the gearing he needs (<10% grade on this stage). The only thing
    I have heard was his right cleat/pedal engagement issue after the fall.

    I had the same opinion on the cranks until I checked them out personally. It grows on you.
     
  5. Looks like a growth of some kind. I always thought the best looking componentry (aesthetically
    speaking) was the Campy Nuevo Record stuff from the '70s. It actually had a look of
    craftsmanship to it.

    Like they wanted to produce something that looked more than it just worked good, they wanted
    something that looked good too. Classy like.

    "May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills!"

    See you on the road. Chris Chris'Z Corner http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  6. [email protected] (RUMSPEC) wrote:

    >It won the Tour this year............!!

    No, _Lance_Armstrong_ won the tour this year. And probably would have with a different set of cranks
    just as well, too.

    "May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills!"

    See you on the road. Chris Chris'Z Corner http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  7. Dianne_1234

    Dianne_1234 Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > anonymous snipes:
    >
    > > It won the Tour this year...!!
    >
    > If you believe that, you are advertising gullible. Lance won the tour, in spite of mechanical
    > failures such as not being able to shift out of low gear on a mountain stage and proceeding to
    > spin to a standing victory.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]

    Do you mean Luz Ardiden? A problem there I've heard of was that his chainstay became broken (perhaps
    when that other guy ran over it in the fall started by the yellow musette bag).

    The subsequent "pedal problem" was no peadal problem at all -- just the chain skipping as the broken
    chainstay compressed under chain tension, which allowed the cable to move the derailleur when Lance
    didn't expect it.

    Lance always spins.
     
  8. [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > The beauty in this crank is supposed to be it's solution to the connection between cranks and
    > spindle, something that has festered for many years as a trouble spot and failure point.
    > Installing and removing cranks is a regular subject here on wreck.bike.
    >
    > We see ISIS with a solution, Cannondale with another and Shimano with one that seems to solve two
    > problems at once. The crank attachment, which appears to be flawless, and the spindle bearings
    > that have often failed in short time. Whether the solution offered stands up in other respects
    > will show up in time.
    >

    Based on another discussion in this forum, I thought Shimano's new left crank attachment method was
    likely to loosen, creak or fail because only the spline flutes adjacent to the pinch bolt would be
    adequately tightened. Is that a reasonable concern? Thanks, Dietrich
     
  9. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Dietrich Wiegmann writes:

    >> The beauty in this crank is supposed to be it's solution to the connection between cranks and
    >> spindle, something that has festered for many years as a trouble spot and failure point.
    >> Installing and removing cranks is a regular subject here on wreck.bike.

    >> We see ISIS with a solution, Cannondale with another and Shimano with one that seems to solve two
    >> problems at once. The crank attachment, which appears to be flawless, and the spindle bearings
    >> that have often failed in short time. Whether the solution offered stands up in other respects
    >> will show up in time.

    > Based on another discussion in this forum, I thought Shimano's new left crank attachment method
    > was likely to loosen, creak or fail because only the spline flutes adjacent to the pinch bolt
    > would be adequately tightened. Is that a reasonable concern?

    Since this is already a light press fit and the spline being omitted at the clamp split, this should
    be a far more durable joint than what they had. Stress should be lower and not be sensitive to
    reverse torque, one of the major failings of the previous design. They didn't change this for
    nothing. I think we discussed those failings often enough here.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  10. I recently bought the new DA10 for my new bike. Installed the BB and Crank yesterday. BB
    installation is a breeze, they supply a special wrench which surrounds half the BB cup. Torquing is
    not an issue, goes on easy with loctite at the end to keep things from moving.

    Crank installation is even easier. Place the drive side spindle through the cups with sealed
    bearings, put the left hand crank arm on the spindle, using the left arm crank arm bolt, with a
    small plastic disc with an allen key fitting on the end you hand tighten the left crank to remove
    play (if any) and ensure the crank spins smoothly.

    The left crank arm has two allen keyed bolts which tighten the crank arm on to the spindle. Low
    tension as this is just to keep things stable.

    The look grows on you, and last night, went on the big chainring and hammered -- no flex into the
    derailleur, no rubbing.

    Function before form.

    --

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    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:RW%[email protected]...
    > Dietrich Wiegmann writes:
    >
    > >> The beauty in this crank is supposed to be it's solution to the connection between cranks and
    > >> spindle, something that has festered for many years as a trouble spot and failure point.
    > >> Installing and removing cranks is a regular subject here on wreck.bike.
    >
    > >> We see ISIS with a solution, Cannondale with another and Shimano with one that seems to solve
    > >> two problems at once. The crank attachment, which appears to be flawless, and the spindle
    > >> bearings that have often failed in short time. Whether the solution offered stands up in other
    > >> respects will show up in time.
    >
    > > Based on another discussion in this forum, I thought Shimano's new left crank attachment method
    > > was likely to loosen, creak or fail because only the spline flutes adjacent to the pinch bolt
    > > would be adequately tightened. Is that a reasonable concern?
    >
    > Since this is already a light press fit and the spline being omitted at the clamp split, this
    > should be a far more durable joint than what they had. Stress should be lower and not be sensitive
    > to reverse torque, one of the major failings of the previous design. They didn't change this for
    > nothing. I think we discussed those failings often enough here.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 10/11/2003
     
  11. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Jay Winickn writes:

    > I recently bought the new DA10 for my new bike. Installed the BB and Crank yesterday. BB
    > installation is a breeze, they supply a special wrench which surrounds half the BB cup. Torquing
    > is not an issue, goes on easy with Loctite at the end to keep things from moving.

    > Crank installation is even easier. Place the drive side spindle through the cups with sealed
    > bearings, put the left hand crank arm on the spindle, using the left arm crank arm bolt, with a
    > small plastic disc with an Allen key fitting on the end you hand tighten the left crank to remove
    > play (if any) and ensure the crank spins smoothly.

    > The left crank arm has two Allen keyed bolts which tighten the crank arm on to the spindle. Low
    > tension as this is just to keep things stable.

    > The look grows on you, and last night, went on the big chainring and hammered -- no flex into the
    > derailleur, no rubbing.

    That's not the issue. The problem is that this interface has extremely high loads that bicycles have
    more or less sustained because they have such a low cyclic rate that failures take a while to
    develop. In this way, these problems have been pushed aside as one or another user errors... riding
    the wrong gears, not installing the unit correctly, or some such excuse.

    Because this has been pushed out of sight and failures are challenged more often these days,
    solutions are being sought by various means. This is not an easy problem to solve without changing
    the whole BB. Cannondale chose to change the dimensions, Shimano found a way to get a bigger spindle
    in by overhung bearings external to the BB shell. The only problem I see is whether the bearings
    remain solid and do not work in the threads, and the free fit of the spindle in the bearings.

    Time will tell. Installation is simpler so that's progress.

    > Function before form.

    That is what we will learn with time on the road.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  12. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    > Jay Winickn writes:
    >
    > > I recently bought the new DA10 for my new bike. Installed the BB and Crank yesterday. BB
    > > installation is a breeze, they supply a special wrench which surrounds half the BB cup. Torquing
    > > is not an issue, goes on easy with Loctite at the end to keep things from moving.
    >
    > > Crank installation is even easier. Place the drive side spindle through the cups with sealed
    > > bearings, put the left hand crank arm on the spindle, using the left arm crank arm bolt, with a
    > > small plastic disc with an Allen key fitting on the end you hand tighten the left crank to
    > > remove play (if any) and ensure the crank spins smoothly.
    >
    > > The left crank arm has two Allen keyed bolts which tighten the crank arm on to the spindle. Low
    > > tension as this is just to keep things stable.
    >
    > > The look grows on you, and last night, went on the big chainring and hammered -- no flex into
    > > the derailleur, no rubbing.
    >
    > That's not the issue. The problem is that this interface has extremely high loads that bicycles
    > have more or less sustained because they have such a low cyclic rate that failures take a while to
    > develop. In this way, these problems have been pushed aside as one or another user errors...
    > riding the wrong gears, not installing the unit correctly, or some such excuse.
    >
    > Because this has been pushed out of sight and failures are challenged more often these days,
    > solutions are being sought by various means. This is not an easy problem to solve without changing
    > the whole BB. Cannondale chose to change the dimensions, Shimano found a way to get a bigger
    > spindle in by overhung bearings external to the BB shell. The only problem I see is whether the
    > bearings remain solid and do not work in the threads, and the free fit of the spindle in the
    > bearings.
    >
    > Time will tell. Installation is simpler so that's progress.

    Simple is good, but oh joy, there's Another Bloody Special Tool. In fairness to Shimano, I don't see
    any practical way to not use a special tool to install this kind of BB. The procedure doesn't sound
    notably simpler than installing a cartridge BB, though I understand your repeated experiences of
    crank failure with square-taper spindles.

    A question for Jay: how is the left arm kept in line with the right arm? I understand that the
    splines are fairly fine now, so I assume an off-by-one error is fairly easy to do (fairly hard with
    the coarse-spline designs, I should think, and completely daft mistake if you do it on a
    square-taper :). Is it in any way keyed?

    > > Function before form.
    >
    > That is what we will learn with time on the road.

    C'mon JB, sign on for the beta-test!

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  13. Answers to questions:

    The BB tools are supplied with the crank and are actually nice to have. Today I rode in the rain,
    and after coming home it was nice to take the crank off and clean behind the chain rings.

    The splining on the left arm has an alignment groove. You'd have to be a super-weenie to screw it
    up. The nice thing is, as nothing is torqued, there is no extreme load to remove or install
    anything. I did the crank arm installation at 10nm, the crank bolt (which is used primarily to
    ensure the left arm is snugged against the bearing) is also at hand tension.

    The really nice thing about DA10 is far better shifting, its like night and day from Ultegra. The
    new levers are very comfy as well.

    By the way, from what I understand, this is essentially the same design as XTR, infact I believe the
    cups are compatible size wise.

    --

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    "Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > > Jay Winickn writes:
    > >
    > > > I recently bought the new DA10 for my new bike. Installed the BB and Crank yesterday. BB
    > > > installation is a breeze, they supply a special wrench which surrounds half the BB cup.
    > > > Torquing is not an issue, goes on easy with Loctite at the end to keep things from moving.
    > >
    > > > Crank installation is even easier. Place the drive side spindle through the cups with sealed
    > > > bearings, put the left hand crank arm on the spindle, using the left arm crank arm bolt, with
    > > > a small plastic disc with an Allen key fitting on the end you hand tighten the left crank to
    > > > remove play (if any) and ensure the crank spins smoothly.
    > >
    > > > The left crank arm has two Allen keyed bolts which tighten the crank arm on to the spindle.
    > > > Low tension as this is just to keep things stable.
    > >
    > > > The look grows on you, and last night, went on the big chainring and hammered -- no flex into
    > > > the derailleur, no rubbing.
    > >
    > > That's not the issue. The problem is that this interface has extremely high loads that bicycles
    > > have more or less sustained because they have such a low cyclic rate that failures take a while
    > > to develop. In this way, these problems have been pushed aside as one or another user errors...
    > > riding the wrong gears, not installing the unit correctly, or some such excuse.
    > >
    > > Because this has been pushed out of sight and failures are challenged more often these days,
    > > solutions are being sought by various means. This is not an easy problem to solve without
    > > changing the whole BB. Cannondale chose to change the dimensions, Shimano found a way to get a
    > > bigger spindle in by overhung bearings external to the BB shell. The only problem I see is
    > > whether the bearings remain solid and do not work in the threads, and the free fit of the
    > > spindle in the bearings.
    > >
    > > Time will tell. Installation is simpler so that's progress.
    >
    > Simple is good, but oh joy, there's Another Bloody Special Tool. In fairness to Shimano, I don't
    > see any practical way to not use a special tool to install this kind of BB. The procedure doesn't
    > sound notably simpler than installing a cartridge BB, though I understand your repeated
    > experiences of crank failure with square-taper spindles.
    >
    > A question for Jay: how is the left arm kept in line with the right arm? I understand that the
    > splines are fairly fine now, so I assume an off-by-one error is fairly easy to do (fairly hard
    > with the coarse-spline designs, I should think, and completely daft mistake if you do it on a
    > square-taper :). Is it in any way keyed?
    >
    > > > Function before form.
    > >
    > > That is what we will learn with time on the road.
    >
    > C'mon JB, sign on for the beta-test!
    >
    > --
    > Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

    ---
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