Uh-oh - shield your eyes, children (helmet content).



A Muzi wrote:

<snip>

> Lunacy? Idiocy? Where? Except for the typo ('vite' for 'vote') she
> seemed to peg the issue quite pithily.


How do you figure that if voluntary helmet use is high that there will
be a need for a law to mandate helmet use? When has that ever happened?

How many states in the U.S. have bicycle helmet laws for adults? Zero.
Motorcycle helmet laws have been repealed in many states as well,
despite voluntary use being very high.

Now if helmet use was non-existent, than no one would ever think to make
a law requiring helmets. Perhaps that's the basis Helen Vecht is using.
 
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:14:55 -0000, Clive George wrote:

> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:26af89ac-e939-41ec-bc0f-b04ceff2c888@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>>> Sure could have fooled me. The more virulent AHZs not only claim they
>>> don't
>>> help, they're DANGEROUS! And, that merely /choosing/ to wear one is
>>> tantamount to favoring MHLs.

>>
>>Hard to believe, but true. See:
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/jycru
>>
>>"Each helmet worn is a silent vite for compulsion." - Helen D. Vecht
>>on July 7, 2006 (This is still my favorite piece of round-the-bend
>>anti-helmet lunacy.)

>
> I was going to keep out of this. But this was just to obvious to ignore.
>
> What she wrote is definitely true over here. The people in charge of
> enacting MHL type laws have said that the thing stopping them from doing so
> is the fact that insufficient people wear helmets. Increase the numbers, and
> they'll pass the law.
>
> What Helen wrote isn't lunacy at all - unfortunately, it's real.
>
> clive


Clive, "Ozark" is an US-ian, and he probably also thinks that the US owns
the internet (and that usenet is part of the internet ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
webtv, and that AOL is the best thing since chicken-fried-steak, and so
on).

As such, it'd be his position that people from other places in the world
who ride push-bikes, even if

a) their cycling rates are higher than those in the US; and

b) their politicians have not yet quite sunk to the
lowest-common-denominator level of those in the US

should keep their concerns to themselves; in other words, America has the
most goddam MHL's in the world, and they're *proud* of it, and the rest of
us should start passing our own 'cause when they finish with eye-ran and
eye-raq and all those goddam stan-countries they're be lookin' real hard at
us.
 
"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection at a
>> passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of background to
>> these MHL folk.

>
> Where have you ever seen someone shouting that? It sounds like maybe a
> brainwashed school child would say something like that, but not an adult.


I had an adult say something like that to me. Otherwise respectable cyclist
as well. I think he was a bit peeved that I'd just told all his mates off
for riding in the dark on a major road without lights. (group of about 8,
one of them had front and back lights, the others had nothing, not even
reflectors.)

We had somebody shout "I hope you die" to us when we were riding in Oz on a
greenspeed tandem trike (recumbent) without helmets - I think we can all
agree that they're pretty immune to most of the bike crashes which lead to
head injury.

I did have a 4yo or so kid say something like it too, but I'll agree that
comes under "brainwashed school child".

clive
 
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:49:53 -0800 (PST), Ed Pirrero wrote:

> On Jan 9, 3:36 pm, _ <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:47:18 -0800 (PST), Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>> On Jan 9, 10:36 am, _ <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:11:32 -0800 (PST), Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>>>>>> You don't know me.  

>>
>>>>>> Well, no...

>>
>>>>> Exactly.  So have a big, steaming mug of STFU until you do.

>>
>>>> Goodness.

>>
>>>> Either you are confused, or you are not a logical person.

>>
>>> Neither.


Let's get to the nub.

Do you require your child to wear or to not wear a helmet when cycling?
 
"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A Muzi wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Lunacy? Idiocy? Where? Except for the typo ('vite' for 'vote') she
>> seemed to peg the issue quite pithily.

>
> How do you figure that if voluntary helmet use is high that there will be
> a need for a law to mandate helmet use? When has that ever happened?


<sigh>

Since the government said that it would.

> How many states in the U.S. have bicycle helmet laws for adults? Zero.
> Motorcycle helmet laws have been repealed in many states as well, despite
> voluntary use being very high.
>
> Now if helmet use was non-existent, than no one would ever think to make a
> law requiring helmets. Perhaps that's the basis Helen Vecht is using.


No, she's using words from officials on the subject.

Others appear to be intelligent enough to understand this. Why not you?

clive
 
[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Sandy Leurre writes:
>
>>>> Where's L. Ron Hubbard when we need him?

>
>>> Dead.

>
>> Still dead!?

>
> Yes, but to make up for that we have Tom Cruise....


Who dat?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth
 
Andrew Muzi mused:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection at a
>> passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of background to
>> these MHL folk. You don't see or hear someone shouting across
>> intersections "Smoking kills!" when a person smoking a cigarette walks
>> down the avenue, even though that would be closer to the truth than
>> the emotions that cause helmet zealots to posture in such a manner.
>> I see them as evangelists who could just as well be yelling "Jesus
>> saves!" at passing traffic as a sign of their correct way of life.
>> Where's L. Ron Hubbard when we need him?

>
> I hear you. Besides 'get a helmet', we actually _do_ have nuts screaming
> 'Jesus Saves' behind 4-foot signs of scripture verse at the end of my
> street. (not all the whackos are in California...)


Capitol Square [1] or Library Mall [2]?

[1] The real nuts have offices inside.
[2] There is a little elevated platform suitable for hectoring from at
this location.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth
 
SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>
>> Regarding Mr Hubbard, he wrote fiction about a fabricated religion
>> designed expressly to maximize tax advantage before inventing
>> Scientology.

>
> Scientology is no more or less made-up than all the other religions.


Except for, of course, The Church of RANS: <http://www.rans.com/>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth
 
> A Muzi wrote:
> <snip>
>> Lunacy? Idiocy? Where? Except for the typo ('vite' for 'vote') she
>> seemed to peg the issue quite pithily.


SMS wrote:
> How do you figure that if voluntary helmet use is high that there will
> be a need for a law to mandate helmet use? When has that ever happened?
>
> How many states in the U.S. have bicycle helmet laws for adults? Zero.
> Motorcycle helmet laws have been repealed in many states as well,
> despite voluntary use being very high.
>
> Now if helmet use was non-existent, than no one would ever think to make
> a law requiring helmets. Perhaps that's the basis Helen Vecht is using.


In context, she responded to the view that if usage rates were higher,
an MHL would be politically more feasible.

From Clive George:
"The people in charge of enacting MHL type laws have said that the thing
stopping them from doing so is the fact that insufficient people wear
helmets. Increase the numbers, and they'll pass the law."
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:41:48 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 9, 10:30 am, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Jan 9, 7:12 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>>
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hmmm.....around here, ~95% of the people cycling already wear a helmet
>>>> (I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, it just is a fact) absent
>>>> a MHL.
>>> If so, that would make your area extremely, extremely unusual. I've
>>> studied this issue for over a decade. I don't recall ever hearing of
>>> any area with 95% helmeted riders. I've _certainly_ never heard of
>>> 95% helmets in a place with no MHL.

>> Why not come down here for a ride, Frank? You can see for yourself.
>>
>>
>> <snip remaining BS>

>
> Your stats strke me as BS and I'd be interested in back up.


What does BS stand for: Bill Sornson?

> Speaking of invitations, how are the plans to come to NYC? You'd said
> you were planning to a while ago and had dared me to tell you how I
> feel about you to your face. After I took you up on that offer your
> travel plans changed.


I will go in OB's place if someone else pays for the trip. However, JFT
might find me very boring.

> Any plans to come to NYC in the near future?
>
> Hahahha you coward torresist
>

Someone who eats toroidal foods?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth
 
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection at a
>>> passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of background to
>>> these MHL folk. You don't see or hear someone shouting across
>>> intersections "Smoking kills!" when a person smoking a cigarette walks
>>> down the avenue, even though that would be closer to the truth than
>>> the emotions that cause helmet zealots to posture in such a manner.
>>> I see them as evangelists who could just as well be yelling "Jesus
>>> saves!" at passing traffic as a sign of their correct way of life.
>>> Where's L. Ron Hubbard when we need him?


> Andrew Muzi mused:
>> I hear you. Besides 'get a helmet', we actually _do_ have nuts
>> screaming 'Jesus Saves' behind 4-foot signs of scripture verse at the
>> end of my street. (not all the whackos are in California...)


Tom Sherman wrote:
> Capitol Square [1] or Library Mall [2]?
> [1] The real nuts have offices inside.
> [2] There is a little elevated platform suitable for hectoring from at
> this location.


State and Lake, on the edge of the mall, most afternoons. I ride past on
the way to the Post Office.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Jan 9, 4:42 pm, _ <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:49:53 -0800 (PST), Ed Pirrero wrote:
> > On Jan 9, 3:36 pm, _ <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:47:18 -0800 (PST), Ed Pirrero wrote:
> >>> On Jan 9, 10:36 am, _ <[email protected]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:11:32 -0800 (PST), Ed Pirrero wrote:
> >>>>>>> You don't know me.  

>
> >>>>>> Well, no...

>
> >>>>> Exactly.  So have a big, steaming mug of STFU until you do.

>
> >>>> Goodness.

>
> >>>> Either you are confused, or you are not a logical person.

>
> >>> Neither.

>
> Let's get to the nub.
>
> Do you require your child to wear or to not wear a helmet when cycling?- Hide quoted text -


Yes, let's. If you were here in person, you wouldn't dare speak to me
in the terms you have.

So I'm going to say to you yet again - mind your own business.

E.P.
 
On Jan 9, 3:44 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 9, 5:31 pm, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection at a
> > > passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of background to
> > > these MHL folk.  You don't see or hear someone shouting across
> > > intersections "Smoking kills!" when a person smoking a cigarette walks
> > > down the avenue,

>
> > Where have you ever seen someone shouting that?

>
> Austin, Texas.
>
> > It sounds like maybe a
> > brainwashed school child would say something like that, but not an adult..

>
> Childish, brainwashed adult.
>
> Fear sells.


I yell "lower your cholesterol!"

Actually, there are times when I want to yell "get a brake" to the
uber-groovy brakeless fixie guys -- particularly when they are
struggling to slow down and avoid hitting me as I walk across the
intersection WITH the light. They probably should have helmets, too,
just to protect them from my umbrella hitting them on the head. -- Jay
Beattie.
 
Clive George wrote:
> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection at a
>>> passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of background to
>>> these MHL folk.

>>
>> Where have you ever seen someone shouting that? It sounds like maybe a
>> brainwashed school child would say something like that, but not an adult.

>
> I had an adult say something like that to me. Otherwise respectable
> cyclist as well. I think he was a bit peeved that I'd just told all his
> mates off for riding in the dark on a major road without lights. (group
> of about 8, one of them had front and back lights, the others had
> nothing, not even reflectors.)


When we're driving, and we barely see an illegally unlit cyclist, or the
cyclist is running red lights or stop signs or doing something else
stupid, invariably the comment from the spousal unit is something like,
"what an idiot, and not wearing a helmet either." It's almost as if it
would be okay for them to run stop signs and red lights, and not use
lights, if only they were wearing a helmet.

> I did have a 4yo or so kid say something like it too, but I'll agree
> that comes under "brainwashed school child".


I wish there was some way to stop the brainwashing, but the kids are
indoctrinated by teachers, administrators, law enforcement, scouting,
doctors & health plans, and parents. If only they could modify the
message to both encourage helmet use _and_ safe riding techniques. But
saying "always wear a helmet" is easier. The same with alcohol. They
have the kids convinced that anyone that drinks at all is an alcoholic.

One benefit of the brainwashed parent is that they seem perfectly happy
to let their kids ride their bicycles to school as long as the kid wears
a helmet. In that sense, the helmet law is helping to increase the
number of cyclists, because the parents believe that the helmet makes
cycling safer, when in fact the safety increase is minuscule. I was
surprised and happy to see the bicycle racks at the new local middle
school filled to capacity, and apparently the school was taken by
surprise as well and they had to add a second bicycle parking area. Plus
the students are riding in the rain and cold as well. It's almost like
they like being independent and getting around on their own. If they'd
install lockers so the kids didn't have to haul sports equipment and
musical instruments back and forth each day, even more kids would ride
(though I did see one kid with a creative attachment to a rear rack that
allowed the transporting of a trombone).
 
Clive George wrote:
> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Lunacy? Idiocy? Where? Except for the typo ('vite' for 'vote') she
>>> seemed to peg the issue quite pithily.

>>
>> How do you figure that if voluntary helmet use is high that there will
>> be a need for a law to mandate helmet use? When has that ever happened?

>
> <sigh>
>
> Since the government said that it would.
>
>> How many states in the U.S. have bicycle helmet laws for adults? Zero.
>> Motorcycle helmet laws have been repealed in many states as well,
>> despite voluntary use being very high.
>>
>> Now if helmet use was non-existent, than no one would ever think to
>> make a law requiring helmets. Perhaps that's the basis Helen Vecht is
>> using.

>
> No, she's using words from officials on the subject.
>
> Others appear to be intelligent enough to understand this. Why not you?
>
> clive


Because her statement evolved from a sufficiently vague
"just wearing a helmet _might_ be a silent vote for compulsion" and a
claim that "the guvmint _may_ introduce compulsion when wearing levels
exceed a certain threshold..."

into "Each helmet worn is a silent vote for compulsion."

Where is the evidence to support the claim that MHLs will be introduced
if voluntary helmet use exceeds a certain percentage? Sounds like
something Guy or Frank would invent.
 
On Jan 9, 6:16 pm, _ <[email protected]> wrote:

<snipped for clarity>

> "Ozark" is an US-ian, and he probably also thinks that the US owns
> the internet (and that usenet is part of the internet ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
> webtv, and that AOL is the best thing since chicken-fried-steak, and so
> on).
>
> As such, it'd be his position that people from other places in the world
> who ride push-bikes, even if
>
> a) their cycling rates are higher than those in the US; and
>
> b) their politicians have not yet quite sunk to the
> lowest-common-denominator level of those in the US
>
> should keep their concerns to themselves; in other words, America has the
> most goddam MHL's in the world, and they're *proud* of it, and the rest of
> us should start passing our own 'cause when they finish with eye-ran and
> eye-raq and all those goddam stan-countries they're be lookin' real hard at
> us.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Good ol' "jtaylor": just as nutty as the Christmas fruitcake!
 
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:16:01 -0000, "Clive George"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection at a
>>> passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of background to
>>> these MHL folk.

>>
>> Where have you ever seen someone shouting that? It sounds like maybe a
>> brainwashed school child would say something like that, but not an adult.

>
>I had an adult say something like that to me. Otherwise respectable cyclist
>as well. I think he was a bit peeved that I'd just told all his mates off
>for riding in the dark on a major road without lights. (group of about 8,
>one of them had front and back lights, the others had nothing, not even
>reflectors.)


I ride some minority of them time w/o a helmet (perhaps 100-200
hours/year) and get the "where's your helmet" thing a few times a
year.

I got the "where's your helmet" thing from a group that I yelled at
not for endangering themselves but for scaring a pedestrian who had
the right of way. Their "leader" bellowed and the pedestrian ran, so I
yelled at them not to treat peds that way. No remorese on their part -
just screaming at me for being irresponsible for riding w/o a helmet.

And I got it from a co-worked who is obese and also shot himself in
the foot a few years ago. Good thing he's looking out for my
safety...
 
Clive George writes:

>>> The helmet zealots who shout across a busy downtown intersection
>>> at a passing rider "Where's your helmet!" gives a bit of
>>> background to these MHL folk.


>> Where have you ever seen someone shouting that? It sounds like
>> maybe a brainwashed school child would say something like that, but
>> not an adult.


> I had an adult say something like that to me. Otherwise respectable
> cyclist as well. I think he was a bit peeved that I'd just told all
> his mates off for riding in the dark on a major road without
> lights. (group of about 8, one of them had front and back lights,
> the others had nothing, not even reflectors.)


> We had somebody shout "I hope you die" to us when we were riding in
> Oz on a Greenspeed tandem trike (recumbent) without helmets - I
> think we can all agree that they're pretty immune to most of the
> bike crashes which lead to head injury.


> I did have a 4yo or so kid say something like it too, but I'll agree
> that comes under "brainwashed school child".


I was once descending our great descending road, Page Mill Road, with
all its ups and downs and zigzag turns with my fast descending pals
going as fast as we could. Just after the JCT of Moody Rd., page Mill
makes a short step dip before a left hand bend on the bench of a
cliff. As we started down the (20%) dip two Western Wheelers (a local
touring club), riding side-by-side uphill on the wrong side of the road
met us, but had not yet seen us.

Knowing what the natural instincts of such folks are (to get to the
proper side of the road) I used my best military command voice to say
"DON'T MOVE"... and they didn't, as we rode single file between them
at close to handlebar touching distance at about 30mph. They were the
lead members of a larger ride with about a dozen other riders
following on the correct side of the road.

One of these people yelled so that all could hear "Look they're not
wearing helmets!" I would like to have interviewed the rider whom we
heard for his estimate of the situation. I think it would have boiled
down to "anyone who descends faster than I is crazy while slower ones
are slugs, and helmets make all this safe.

Jobst Brandt
 
Jay Taylor writes:

>>>>>> Well, no...


>>>>> Exactly.  So have a big, steaming mug of STFU until you do.


>>>> Goodness.


>>> Either you are confused, or you are not a logical person.


>> Neither.


> Let's get to the nub.


> Do you require your child to wear or to not wear a helmet when cycling?


http://tinyurl.com/dm4pp

On a ride with my son. Is that good enough?

Jobst Brandt