Ullrich announces he will take DNA test to prove innocence....

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by whiteboytrash, Jul 2, 2006.

  1. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    If Communidad Valenciana take legal action won't that open the door for everyone else to sue ? I note that they have provided blood samples.....

    ___________________
    Communidad Valenciana to take legal action
    The Communidad Valenciana team has announced that it will take legal action against institutions that it claims have damaged its reputation in the wake of the Operacion Puerto doping affair, according to a press release issued by the team yesterday.

    The team declared that team managers and riders have not been complicit in doping. In addition, the 32 members of the team would sue for compensation for the personal, sporting and economic damage sustained by its members over the past three weeks.

    Those that could be the target of legal action may include the Operacion Puerto investigators and those that have collaborated with the doping investigation, as well as members of the media.

    The press release stated that, "These legal actions will be directed against the people in charge of the investigation and those who have [provided information to the media] and against [members of the] mass media that have accused anyone [of doping] in the Communidad Valenciana team without having the documentary evidence necessary to prove culpability."

    The team also stated that their riders have cooperated fully with the investigation from the beginning and that all riders sent voluntarily sent additional blood samples to authorities to be compared with those samples seized by the Operacion Puerto investigators.
     


  2. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    That's interesting information. I'm unclear on the blood samples. Did they send these before the media "deluge", or is it something they have decided to do more recent than that? I would think that if they supplied blood samples, and those samples indicate the rider(s) innocence...that information would be reported also wouldn't it?
     
  3. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    They provided them right from the start but I don't think the Spanish police were interested in them.... besides they have already been condemned like everyone else in this scandal.... guilty or innocent they are already been hung.... I hope el pais has a good lawyer... they are going to need it !

     
  4. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    Well, they certainly will need it if any of those riders can establish their innocence in this whole thing. If the allegations prove to be true.. it may be hard to do much about it.

    Still, having supplied the samples, you think "someone" would have done something with them before potentially ruining someone's career.
     
  5. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    The thing is the riders don't need to establish there innocence.... the riders are innocent until someone either lays charges or presents evidence to the contrary. At this point from what I have seen there hasn't been any evidence that would suggest any of the riders were involved in doping. If the UCI do nothing, if the Spanish Guard doesn't lay charges, what happens ? Nothing. Do you really think the UCI are going to sanction Basso and Ullrich on the basis of text messages from an unknown mobile and Basso's dog's name on piece of paper ? There lawyers will tear this stuff to pieces. CAS also wouldn’t work this evidence and would clear the riders. Like I’ve said before, I’ve seen 1st year legal students present better cases than this.
     
  6. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    What you're saying is correct. I was referring more to the teams statements that it's up to the riders to prove their innocence in regards to the suspensions. I can't remember right now whether it was JU or Basso's team saying that (maybe both?) but I read that somewhere.

    I don't think the Spanish Guard CAN charge them can it? They can go after the doctor, but not the riders? What they did (maybe did) is only illegal in regards to cycling rules, correct?

    UCI hasn't done anything yet, but I find it hard to believe they won't. I know the evidence isn't "proof" yet, but what little we know looks pretty bad. Actually it's interesting they haven't said more than they have about the whole situation.

    The thing that bugs me about all this is....

    The teams have taken a pretty big step in suspending the riders. That seems pretty drastic, especially considering the riders involved. I realize they suspended them (JU anyway) due to supposedly "lying" and breaking a signed statement to that affect. Still, it's a huge step to take for the team. You would think they have to see pretty strong evidence before taking that step...but maybe not. I know there is pressure from the sponsors, etc.

    We won't know till we know.. and perhaps we'll never hear about everything involved... at least unfiltered. We may find out there are even more surprising names buried in this thing, since they apparently haven't completed looking through the doctor's records.
     
  7. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    The Spanish police was never really interested in the riders, they didn't even gave the information to ASO & co. It was a request of the French sport minister to give the list with riders and the Spanish sport (or interior..? i forgot about that) minister gave the list personally. I heard that the Guardia Civil wasn't really pleased about it because they haven't finished their investigation.

    I am sick and tired of the way the media are covering the whole story. They write about evidence but they don't show the evidence. The German media for instance talk with team managers and other team representatives but never ask the BIG questions.

    Frommert (TM): "we have hard evidence"
    Journalist: "..." (Says nothing).

    No questions like: WHAT EVIDENCE, can you show us something, can you tell us something.

    Nothing!

    And to many people in the circuit tell me that TM was affraid of bad publicity and 3 weeks full of questions about Jan and Fuentes. Now they are standing there with a face like "we are the good ones, we immediatly react". No word about that it's normally the crime that has to be proved and not the accused that has to proof his innocence. (TM is demnding that Jan proves his innocence) You won't here me say that Jan is innocent (i hope but i don't know), but you will hear me say that it's all about TM marketing and Jan didn't fit in TM's marketing strategie anymore.

    No word about the dates on the JAN bloodbag (one of them is September, Jan didn't race from the Tour of Germany (August 2005) untill April 2006. Jan Hruska did race in september (he started for Liberty Seguros at the Tour of Poland) but you won't hear me say that JAN is Jan hruska, nobody knows who JAN is. BUT it doesn't really make sence to take blood doping in September 2005 when your first race is in April 2006. The sms messages of Pevenage to Fuentes aren't prooved either. The Guardia Civil writes in their report that it was a Belgian mobile number and one of the messages was signed with Rudicio so they THINK it was Pevenage (but they don't KNOW!). Another thing is the Guardia Civil confiscated the computer of Fuentes and started to investigate the Fuentes harddisk this week.

    Like LA didn't had to do a DNA test after the L'equipe story (which is his right, otherwise we all will be stopped by the police one day and have to proof that we didn't rob the local bank..) Jan and Ivan don't have to do this either. No court in the democratic western world would convict anybody on the facts against Jan and Ivan that are known (at this time), a judge would laugh about it, a state prosecuter wouldn't even take the case to court.

    Funny enough there are double standards here: more names are known (or better: the Guardia Civil think that they know-like with the published names) but are not mentioned in the media (the next time i get this angry i will probebly try to publish them, but no worries, my editor wil skip them again! We have a world cup soccer here and we paid a lot to cover the Tour).

    Also funny enough: does anybody believe that the team doctors didn't know if they doped? The ds's? It was well known in Germany that Sinkewitz was working with Ferrari, it's even on the German Wikepedia (and not since yesterday: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Sinkewitz ). The Süddeutsche Zeitung publishes a story about it and all over sudden Sinkewitz is not allowed to work with Ferrari anymore (again: it doesn't fit with TMs marketing strategie anymore - Ferrari out). Frommert lied on German TV yesterday that he had spoken about this with Sinkewitz and they had agreed that Sinkewitz wouldn't work with ferrari anymore, a bit dumm because shortly after that there was an interview with Sinkewitz who didn't know that they had agreed this. Than they came back to Frommert but don't worry (again), no journalist said.. but Mr. Frommert you just said you spoke about that with Patrick how come he didn't know? Most of the journalists (at least here in Germany) are doing a real bad job.


    I don't know if Jan and others all (or some of them) are innocent, what i do know that it's not all like it seems. The whole case stinks (Mqaid: "the Guardia Civil can concentrate on Fuentes now, we know enough about the riders" - funny as there are still codenames where the Guardia Civil doesn't have a clue who these persons are...).

    I will drive to the Tour again in about an hour. I am angry and will dig further!:mad:
     
  8. micron

    micron New Member

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    cyclingheroes, I've always enjoyed your posts and you're one of the few posters here who don't seem to be either in denial or crowing like an arrogant pr*ck - thanks for the perspective and balance you've brought to this whole debate
     
  9. JensCph

    JensCph New Member

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    Haha, this is completely Kafka-esque. Basso is apparantly being denied access to the documents, because he is not being accused of anything. He is just a potential witness in a trial against Fuentes. At the same time he is suspended because of the ethical code requires suspension if suspected.

    Its a legal no-mans-land. And if UCI does nothing either way, then the situation is a complete deadlock. Regardless of what is the truth, the system isnt working.
     
  10. acpinto

    acpinto New Member

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    On Rudy Pevenage: On May 17, at 23.27, Fuentes received an SMS text message
    from a Belgian number with the following message: "Friend, when can we talk?
    Rudicio." On the next day, at 12.20, Fuentes receives a call from the same
    number. As he's busy, he asks the person to call back later. "This evening,"
    he responds. "Now, there's a time trial." [which was won by Jan Ullrich -
    ed.] The elements lead to the supposition that the identity of "Rudicio" is
    T-Mobile's DS Rudy Pevenage, who is also a close personal advisor of Jan
    Ullrich.


    Does this make any sense !?

    Was the call based in Italy?(being a belgian number the phone call could be made from italy but that should already be in the acusation- I think the belgian and italian police woul cooperate).

    If was made from Belgian why couldn´t he speak earlier, was he going to watch the ITT on TV?

    Now speaking to the LA fans that say they don´t defend there skin like LA did, its a proof that they are guilty.

    I think what TMO and CSC done was the only thing they could do, being the riders acused by the "Guarda Civil".

    It´s the right thing to do - not demanding pavel padmos to race - if we are under strong acustions.

    I do think the spanish autorithies would know that they woul retire their man from the tour. So i think they have to have more evidende, than that phone call and bag labbed "jan". because if they don´t...

    By the way jan is a lousy code name - this is to fuentes.( so is birillo, sevillano and others)

    Then de defence as to be prepared there are a lot of things that can go wrong if the defence is not accurate!

    I really don´t know this, Can or cannot the Blood DNA be altered?

    I´m writing this post based on what i´ve learned so far, so please if there is anything that is arlready surpassed by the news, please correct me!

    I hoping Ulrich didn´t dope, but that wouldn´t surprise me at all.

    P.S. sorry for my bad english

    P.S.S. Azevedo for top Five - and tour for Moreau

    Ângelo - Portugal
     
  11. alibat

    alibat New Member

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    Thanks for the insight cyclingheroes. There are lots of things that don't add up, although since Jan has been my favorite rider for the past ten years, anything which casts a doubt over Jan's involvement in the whole sorry affair is welcome.
    As well as all the stuff previously mentioned regarding dates on blood bags etc there is the fact that he put in a great performance at the TdS. Another thread mentions the drop in Dekker's performance since the story broke. The same cannot be said here, quite the opposite. Of course none of this proves anything, least of all if Jan has doped are not. But considering the reported short term effects of blood doping, it does pose some interesting questions. If Jan is guilty of doping, he could either be using another doctor, or he believes to be (putting Pevenage in the frame). This would explain his constant denials of not knowing Fuentes, if he isn't lying of course. Even TMO have said there is no solid evidence of him doping or visting the clinic. It could suggest he is innocent and/or (and this would be particulary sad if he is indeed guilty) that he doesn't need to cheat to win. Also, Jan hardly shone in the Giro. True, he won the ITT but if he had been really going for it I would have expected him to put more time into Basso, and when he'd finished his ride, no one thought he'd posted the best time of the day.
    Also if Jan has been involved and he thought that there was a real chance of getting found out, wouldn't the wisest thing to have done been to have pulled out of the Tour weeks ago citing a flare up of the knee injury? Bassos's and Ullrich's names really stick out on the list as someone else mentioned due to their teams and nationalities.
    If they turn out to be innocent, who will be to blame for this mess? In my mind that would be mainly those responsible for leaking the story in the first place to the press during the Giro. Surely it was this that got the ASO to push for a list of names before the start of the Tour. If what has been said elsewhere is true, and the Spanish authorities were not happy about it because they haven't finished their investigation and some of those implicated turn out to be not involved, there will be hell to pay.
    I am particulary concerned that only this week have they started to check Fuentes computer. What is the chance that Basso and Ullrich are not sanctioned by the UCI due to lack of real evidence but unable to completely clear their names either?
     
  12. Ullefan

    Ullefan New Member

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    The tour organisers are only trying to protect the image of the tour, the UCI are to blame for this. They are the ones who should have anticipated this situation where riders are suspended because of suspicion. They should have anticipated that since riders can't get hold of documents, they cannot defend themselves. The spanish authorities I won't say are saints either, but the UCI should have stepped in and said, you can't use these documents are evidence to suspend, because it is only speculation at this point, the case hasn't even been finished! How about suspending footballers implicated when the world cup is on, how well would that go down? Pathetic!
     
  13. Ullefan

    Ullefan New Member

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    Team-mate of Jan Hruska tests positive, from race earlier in the year!

    Santos Gonzalez positive in Murcia

    Spanish newspaper La Verdad has reported that Vuelta a Murcia winner Santos Gonzalez Capilla (3 Molinos Resort) was tested positive for banned substance triamcinolon acetonid, a corticosteroid, and subsequently stripped off his victory. After being questioned by the Spanish cycling federation, the UCI has appointed then second-placed José Ivan Gutierrez (Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears) as overall winner of the race.

    Santos Gonzalez Capilla has been a professional since 1994, riding for Kelme, Once, Cantina Tollo-Acqua & Sapone, Domina Vacanze, Phonak and 3 Molinos Resort. He has twice been awarded the title of best national time triallist and won one stage in the Vuelta a España, where he finished fourth overall in the year 2000.
     
  14. micron

    micron New Member

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    The UCI aren't concerned about rooting out the problem of doping, they're only concerned about protecting their own backs cf the laughable Vrijman report and making it seem as if the Festina scandal and Operation Puerto are isolated incidents and that this handful of riders are the bad apples and the rest of the peloton is clean - laughable and pathetic. And, once this is over, they'll stick their collective heads back up their collective butts until the next scandal breaks - with another opportunity to finally clean up the sport well and truly missed.

    And all those riders who choose to prepare with other doctors - like the ones getting their Ferrari tune ups - must be laughing their socks off.

    The thought that we, the fans, are supposed to buy that whoever wins this Tour is somehow 'clean' makes me sick
     
  15. Ullefan

    Ullefan New Member

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    Makes me sick too. Ferrari is burning documents as we speak!
     
  16. tinks

    tinks New Member

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    I can't bring myself to watch.

    It's just a very dirty situation made worse by the attempt to "clean" it up. It's absurd to ban Ullrich and Basso with such weak evidence and not Valverde or Menchov who's names have also been mentioned.

    I can't believe any of the teams are serious about it. I'm surprised people are commending T-Mobile. If they were serious about it, they should have banned Rogers, Mazzoleni and Sinkewitz from seeing Ferrari as soon as they signed up.
     
  17. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    Nice post... even if RudyP was at the other end of the Belgium mobile so what ? Nothing he said implied doping. 50% of the peleton have connections, send texts and call doctors such as Ferrari and Cecchchi - Does this imply doping ? No its doesn't. There is a lot of suspicion but not a lot of evidence. At this point Jan didn't dope and either did Basso. Case closed. UCI have nothing to go on and they know that. Jan won't be sanctioned and he will be riding the Vuelta at the end of the year.

     
  18. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    ...along with Landis, Levi, Hincapie and countless others ?
     
  19. bobke

    bobke New Member

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    Yes, but if you are Rudy Pevange, already on thin ice with T-Mob, why do you call Fuentes? Why do you lie when they ask you (other than you'll be fired if you say yes) other than to cover up something?
     
  20. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    What I am thinking is that WADA sure has been quiet. This is the golden egg for Dick Pound. I'm thinking he gave blood samples of the riders to the Spanish civil authorities. Would WADA have samples? I would think they would.
    Even though many of you claim it is against the law, that would not stop Dick Pound. I'm not sure that the riders may have had to sign something allowing their blood to be tested at anytime in a investigation involving cycling.

    The evidence released is not enough to stand up in court, but it is not hard to connect the dots. But the UCI seems to be so confident in their assessment.

    And where the hell is WADA?
     
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