ullrich

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Bounty Bob, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:21:11 -0700, "Maximillian Leon III"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >Bullshit. The difference between Telecom and Discovery is that once a
    >Discovery rider is off the back, they go into "save it for another day"
    >mode. There are still 3 Telecom riders who thingk they are leaders and keep
    >fighter for GC time. 2 of them won't be worth crap tomorrow. Vino did good
    >to help blow things up, but his day was done and his manager should have
    >told him so.
    >
    >Any one of Discovery, Telecom, CSC, Phonak could blow things up on the first
    >climb, I don't think it proved Telecom had any more or less strength today.
    >It was the start of a great strategy, but once Kloden and Vino where
    >dropped, they should have started to save things for tomorrow.
    >
    >Tell me Telecom's top 5 are better than discovery's after tomorrow's stage.
    >
    >2 cents
    >



    Get off the drugs. That's why I said- "Once it was over I imagine
    Bruyneel told them all to relax and that they'd try it all again
    tomorrow as TMO probably won't do that again. They're not smart
    enough." in another thread.

    And you can pretty much forget about Vino or Kloden just saving it.

    There IS no team leader there and EVERYONE knows it.

    And no, CSC and Phonak could not blow things up on the first climb and
    lose all of DSC. They are not nearly as strong as deep into the team
    as TMO. No way.

    Ras might have tried it but TMO went much earlier than that.

    D
     


  2. trg wrote:

    > Acrtually, given the composition of the stage- an HC climb followed by a cat
    > 1 mountain top finish without any transition between them, it was pretty
    > predictable (except maybe for Popovych). I thought it would be Rasmussen who


    Hmmm. I was told I was on crack for calling it that way...
     
  3. trg

    trg Guest

    "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message
    de news: [email protected]
    >
    >
    > trg wrote:
    >
    >> Acrtually, given the composition of the stage- an HC climb followed by a
    >> cat 1 mountain top finish without any transition between them, it was
    >> pretty predictable (except maybe for Popovych). I thought it would be
    >> Rasmussen who

    >
    > Hmmm. I was told I was on crack for calling it that way...


    In retrospect, your crack addiction had nothing to do with your saying that
    Discovery wouldn't get off the launching pad.
     
  4. trg

    trg Guest

  5. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    Bounty Bob wrote:
    >
    > okay that time ullrich definitely stupidly helped armstrong
    > to get onto vino. Idiot.


    Dumbass,

    I've wondered if Vino has been given carte blanche by the team to do
    whatever he wants. He's been permitted to play "wildcard." If he does
    damage fine, if not, okay too. But part of that "deal" is the rest of
    the team ignores him. This includes ignoring an attack of his and
    apparently even neutralizing one. He's basically riding on his own; the
    logic is probably that it imposes an unpredictability on the race in
    that his efforts can perhaps be leveraged at some point.

    It looks like bad form for the team, but it might not be as bad as it
    looks. He isn't good enough compared to the best climbers and time
    trialists. He would've gotten dropped no matter what. It was just a
    question of when and where. It looked "bad," but it didn't really
    matter.
     
  6. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    David Ferguson wrote:
    >


    > There IS no team leader there and EVERYONE knows it.


    D.d.d.d.dumb.dumb.dumb.ass.ass.ass.ass,

    The team, aside from Vino, is riding for Ullrich.
     
  7. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > David Ferguson wrote:
    >
    >> There IS no team leader there and EVERYONE knows it.

    >
    > D.d.d.d.dumb.dumb.dumb.ass.ass.ass.ass,
    >
    > The team, aside from Vino, is riding for Ullrich.


    Vino is riding for him as well.
     
  8. Mark Janeba

    Mark Janeba Guest

    gwhite wrote:

    > I've wondered if Vino has been given carte blanche by the team to do
    > whatever he wants. He's been permitted to play "wildcard." If he does
    > damage fine, if not, okay too. But part of that "deal" is the rest of
    > the team ignores him. This includes ignoring an attack of his and
    > apparently even neutralizing one. He's basically riding on his own; the
    > logic is probably that it imposes an unpredictability on the race in
    > that his efforts can perhaps be leveraged at some point.
    >
    > It looks like bad form for the team, but it might not be as bad as it
    > looks. He isn't good enough compared to the best climbers and time
    > trialists. He would've gotten dropped no matter what. It was just a
    > question of when and where. It looked "bad," but it didn't really
    > matter.


    Best explanation so far, IMHO, and it may indeed be TMO's "plan", but
    it's hard to figure that a Chiapucci-like Vino helps TMO more than a
    rider that strong helping Jan.

    Maybe it would have helped if LA was responding to Vino's attacks.
    IIRC, he did on stage 8, but on two stages since, he's refused to take
    the bait.

    Mark
     
  9. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    Mark Janeba wrote:
    >
    > gwhite wrote:
    >
    > > I've wondered if Vino has been given carte blanche by the team to do
    > > whatever he wants. He's been permitted to play "wildcard." If he does
    > > damage fine, if not, okay too. But part of that "deal" is the rest of
    > > the team ignores him. This includes ignoring an attack of his and
    > > apparently even neutralizing one. He's basically riding on his own; the
    > > logic is probably that it imposes an unpredictability on the race in
    > > that his efforts can perhaps be leveraged at some point.
    > >
    > > It looks like bad form for the team, but it might not be as bad as it
    > > looks. He isn't good enough compared to the best climbers and time
    > > trialists. He would've gotten dropped no matter what. It was just a
    > > question of when and where. It looked "bad," but it didn't really
    > > matter.

    >
    > Best explanation so far, IMHO, and it may indeed be TMO's "plan", but
    > it's hard to figure that a Chiapucci-like Vino helps TMO more than a
    > rider that strong helping Jan.


    Jan isn't good enough to beat Lance outright. Or at least he hasn't
    ever shown he is. TMO might as well gamble on some chaos. A wildcard
    does that. Ironically not riding for the leader (Ullrich) has a chance
    of helping the team.

    Kloden seems to be climbing a bit better than Vino anyway. How many
    super-domestiques do you need?

    > Maybe it would have helped if LA was responding to Vino's attacks.
    > IIRC, he did on stage 8, but on two stages since, he's refused to take
    > the bait.


    If nothing else, they can get stage wins from Vino and a high GC from
    Ullrich. Not bad. Not bad at all.
     
  10. On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:02:11 GMT, gwhite <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >
    >David Ferguson wrote:
    >>

    >
    >> There IS no team leader there and EVERYONE knows it.

    >
    >D.d.d.d.dumb.dumb.dumb.ass.ass.ass.ass,
    >
    >The team, aside from Vino, is riding for Ullrich.



    Really, because I've watched a hell of a lot of races. And I've
    watched every OLN televised part of this one. I see teams riding for a
    team leader. Even teams that can't really do much to help their team
    leader.

    NONE of them do what T-Mobile does. EVER.

    So I guess I should amend my statement..

    There IS no team leader there and EVERYONE except for a few dumbasses
    knows it.

    Kloden is pretending to ride for Jan but really riding for Kloden.
    Vino isn't even pretending and just riding for Vino. Jan is riding so
    much for himself that he attacks his own team. Guerini is riding for
    all 3 of them because they suck his wheel until he's out of gas so
    they can go do their own thing. Nardello is just trying to get
    something going as a team and hoping for the best.

    D
     
  11. gwhite wrote:
    > Mark Janeba wrote:


    > > Best explanation so far, IMHO, and it may indeed be TMO's "plan", but
    > > it's hard to figure that a Chiapucci-like Vino helps TMO more than a
    > > rider that strong helping Jan.

    >
    > Jan isn't good enough to beat Lance outright. Or at least he hasn't
    > ever shown he is. TMO might as well gamble on some chaos. A wildcard
    > does that. Ironically not riding for the leader (Ullrich) has a chance
    > of helping the team.
    >
    > Kloden seems to be climbing a bit better than Vino anyway. How many
    > super-domestiques do you need?


    Yeah. I don't really understand what all the quarterbacks
    who are saying "T-Mobile isn't riding as a team" want them
    to do. It's not clear to me, for example, that if Vino
    stayed with Jan instead of attacking, that either (a) Vino
    could follow LANCE and Jan up the final hill or (b) if he
    could, Vino could help Jan stay with LANCE until the end
    (when Jan loses contact in the last couple of km, he's
    pretty much emptied the tank).

    I think it's clear that LANCE can no longer put in the
    devastating bottom-of-the-climb attack he used to, or at
    least, he can't get rid of everyone that way. But he's
    still close to the best climber. It might be possible to
    wear him down with repeated attacks on a hill. But his
    closest GC rivals, Basso and Ullrich, are steady climbers.
    A climber like Pantani or a good-form Simoni, who could
    repeatedly kick and force Armstrong to chase, might put
    him in difficulty. But there aren't many of those guys
    at the head of the race. Vino is one, but he seems cooked.
    Rasmussen hasn't shown he can attack Armstrong. Valverde
    is out.

    > Maybe it would have helped if LA was responding to Vino's attacks.
    > > IIRC, he did on stage 8, but on two stages since, he's refused to take
    > > the bait.


    Unlucky for T-Mobile that Vino had his really bad day right
    away. That took him away as a GC threat, so attacks from
    him can wear down Discovery, but LANCE doesn't have to
    chase each one personally.
     
  12. Are you kidding me. Even Lady Hatt could figure that one out. At that point
    Vino was toast and only attacked as a last chance bluff or to draw one of the
    others out.
    Bounty Bob <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Keith wrote:
    >>>Bounty Bob wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> okay that time ullrich definitely stupidly helped armstrong
    >>>>to get onto vino. Idiot.

    >
    >
    >>>That's the start of the mountain. T-Mobile is interested to stay
    >>>togather in this phase. You see that Ullrich also tries to lower the
    >>>speed when Vino is hanging back.

    >
    >
    >> In spite of all his failings, Ullrich is still the best t-mobile guy
    >> on the road, so...

    >
    >
    > Dear god ... last climb now vino breaks again and this
    >time kloden and ullrich chase him down. Shoot T-Mobile management.
     
  13. Bounty Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Dear god ... last climb now vino breaks again and this time
    >> kloden and ullrich chase him down. Shoot T-Mobile management.


    Sir Topham Hatt <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Are you kidding me. Even Lady Hatt could figure that one out.
    > At that point Vino was toast and only attacked as a last chance
    > bluff or to draw one of the others out.


    So why didn't they allow more than 10-15 seconds to see if one of
    the others could have been drawn out?

    --
    Theodore (Ted) Heise <[email protected]> Bloomington, IN, USA
     
  14. sonarrat

    sonarrat Guest

    Theodore Heise wrote:
    > Bounty Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>> Dear god ... last climb now vino breaks again and this time
    >>>kloden and ullrich chase him down. Shoot T-Mobile management.

    >
    >
    > Sir Topham Hatt <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Are you kidding me. Even Lady Hatt could figure that one out.
    >>At that point Vino was toast and only attacked as a last chance
    >>bluff or to draw one of the others out.

    >
    >
    > So why didn't they allow more than 10-15 seconds to see if one of
    > the others could have been drawn out?


    Because Ullrich is a pig of a rider who hates to get out of his saddle?
     
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